redundancy question
Discussion
I'm after a bit of help here and wondering if the wonderful people of ph would know the answer.
I have been working for my current employer for around 4 years now. I have just had a meeting with my line manager and a hr representative and they have said 'this is the start of your redundancy process'. I am having a second meeting in a couple of weeks then this will be finalised, the reason being my role is no longer needed.
This I understand, not nice, but I understand it. What I would like to know is:
The position I am in now the company have sub-contractors working the same role. To put it bluntly, should they be the first to be given reduncy owing to the fact that they are sub-contractors rather than full employees?
Also is there any rules, such as they can't make a redundancy then re advertise the post a couple of months down the line, that they need to stick to?
Thank you for the advice
I have been working for my current employer for around 4 years now. I have just had a meeting with my line manager and a hr representative and they have said 'this is the start of your redundancy process'. I am having a second meeting in a couple of weeks then this will be finalised, the reason being my role is no longer needed.
This I understand, not nice, but I understand it. What I would like to know is:
The position I am in now the company have sub-contractors working the same role. To put it bluntly, should they be the first to be given reduncy owing to the fact that they are sub-contractors rather than full employees?
Also is there any rules, such as they can't make a redundancy then re advertise the post a couple of months down the line, that they need to stick to?
Thank you for the advice
Sorry to hear what you are going through, never nice.
In terms of the roles, it's a tricky area, I don't believe there is any legal reason why they should have to get rid of a sub-contractor before you, unless you can prove that they have the identical job description as yourself.
The same applies for re-advertising the role. You are right that they can't make you redundant and then re-advertise for exactly the same post - I think that might be 6-12 months, I'm not sure.
In reality though plenty of firms will make someone redundant as a way to cut their ties (for whatever reason) and then advertise for a similar position, but not exactly the same one and it can be incredibly hard to argue that case.
Some key questions are, do you have a full job description? What sort of size is the firm? (as they may be obliged to try and find you another role within the firm), have you got a history of disciplinary actions against you or issues that may be the real reason that they are offering you redundancy?
In terms of the roles, it's a tricky area, I don't believe there is any legal reason why they should have to get rid of a sub-contractor before you, unless you can prove that they have the identical job description as yourself.
The same applies for re-advertising the role. You are right that they can't make you redundant and then re-advertise for exactly the same post - I think that might be 6-12 months, I'm not sure.
In reality though plenty of firms will make someone redundant as a way to cut their ties (for whatever reason) and then advertise for a similar position, but not exactly the same one and it can be incredibly hard to argue that case.
Some key questions are, do you have a full job description? What sort of size is the firm? (as they may be obliged to try and find you another role within the firm), have you got a history of disciplinary actions against you or issues that may be the real reason that they are offering you redundancy?
The ACAS website has some great advice on redundancy
There is nothing to stop them re-advertising to fill the same role if business needs change:
There is nothing to stop them re-advertising to fill the same role if business needs change:
ACAS website said:
If business needs change, how long do I have to wait before I can recruit again?
There is no fixed period of time following a redundancy exercise in which you need to avoid recruiting. If your business situation genuinely changes unexpectedly and a role you previously made redundant has to be re-created because you now need new staff, you can recruit as and when you like. Remember that any staff working their redundancy notice periods should be given the chance to trial these new roles first if they are potentially suitable and reasonable alternatives.
There is no fixed period of time following a redundancy exercise in which you need to avoid recruiting. If your business situation genuinely changes unexpectedly and a role you previously made redundant has to be re-created because you now need new staff, you can recruit as and when you like. Remember that any staff working their redundancy notice periods should be given the chance to trial these new roles first if they are potentially suitable and reasonable alternatives.
Many thanks for your help JRM.
Answers to a couple of questions, the company is a reasonable size (around 550 including sub contrators and staff) I have no disaplinary marks agenst my name and yes I have a full job description. I can't think of any other reasons that I may be going throuh the process.
Thanks for the sympathy also, it's the first time it's happened to me so a bit panicked by it to be honest. Only just renewed the mortgage as well.
Answers to a couple of questions, the company is a reasonable size (around 550 including sub contrators and staff) I have no disaplinary marks agenst my name and yes I have a full job description. I can't think of any other reasons that I may be going throuh the process.
Thanks for the sympathy also, it's the first time it's happened to me so a bit panicked by it to be honest. Only just renewed the mortgage as well.
I am no legal or HR expert but I have been on both sides of the table.
From their, your employer's, point of view here's are summary of the rules and guidelines they should follow
•Redundancy does not relate to an individual's performance in a job but occurs due to job disappearance, relocation or where the need for particular work ceases or diminishes or is expected to cease or diminish.
•Employers are advised firstly to consider alternatives to compulsory redundancies such as natural wastage, reducing overtime or short-time working.
•Prior to serving notice of dismissal, there are set timescales for consultation depending on the numbers involved and the time period. Consultation and information should include details of the reasoning and explanation for the decision to make redundancies, as well as arrangements for making the redundancies.
•The employer should consult with individuals even if you anticipate less than 20 redundancies.
•Failure to consult may result in up to 90 days' pay per employee.
•Any selection criteria should be objective, free from unlawful discrimination and preferably be measurable and evidence-based. They must then be applied fairly and consistently.
•Offer alternative work if this is available, even at a lower level.
•An employee with two or more years' service is entitled to a statutory redundancy payment, based on his/her age and length of service.
•Employees who are under notice of redundancy and who have two years' service are entitled to reasonable paid time off to look for other work
Given your comments about the presence of sub-contractors doing the same/similar job then the point about the offer of an alternative role becomes relevant and therefore maybe something you should raise at the next meeting.
Hopefully there will be other responses with further advice on how to handle the next steps. If you are unsure or not confident remember that you can be accompanied by either a work colleague or a trade union representative at all consultation meetings
From their, your employer's, point of view here's are summary of the rules and guidelines they should follow
•Redundancy does not relate to an individual's performance in a job but occurs due to job disappearance, relocation or where the need for particular work ceases or diminishes or is expected to cease or diminish.
•Employers are advised firstly to consider alternatives to compulsory redundancies such as natural wastage, reducing overtime or short-time working.
•Prior to serving notice of dismissal, there are set timescales for consultation depending on the numbers involved and the time period. Consultation and information should include details of the reasoning and explanation for the decision to make redundancies, as well as arrangements for making the redundancies.
•The employer should consult with individuals even if you anticipate less than 20 redundancies.
•Failure to consult may result in up to 90 days' pay per employee.
•Any selection criteria should be objective, free from unlawful discrimination and preferably be measurable and evidence-based. They must then be applied fairly and consistently.
•Offer alternative work if this is available, even at a lower level.
•An employee with two or more years' service is entitled to a statutory redundancy payment, based on his/her age and length of service.
•Employees who are under notice of redundancy and who have two years' service are entitled to reasonable paid time off to look for other work
Given your comments about the presence of sub-contractors doing the same/similar job then the point about the offer of an alternative role becomes relevant and therefore maybe something you should raise at the next meeting.
Hopefully there will be other responses with further advice on how to handle the next steps. If you are unsure or not confident remember that you can be accompanied by either a work colleague or a trade union representative at all consultation meetings
I think the contractor point becomes relevant in the situation where in a downsizing of say 5 similar level roles becoming 3 new roles and the 5 people affected have the opportunity to compete for the reduced number of new roles. I believe in this circumstance that should any of the 5 people not be a permanent employee then the employer should release them before permanent employees are made redundant.
eggchaser1987 said:
Thanks again. Regarding the sub-contractors I do believe that they have themselves as a ltd company.
IANAL but my interpretation of that then is that they have little to do with your redundancy - they are each separate businesses in their own right providing a service to their customer (your employer).Harsh though it may be, your employer may have found that outsourcing your job function makes better business sense (i.e. saves money).
Are there possibilities for you to become a sub-contractor? How many jobs are being made redundant? Are other roles being created to limit the effect of the redundancies (sometimes redundancy is thinly veiled as a restructure, as I found out a few years ago - very stressful at the time, but about 5 managers job roles were put at risk but 4 new roles were created.)
Mike
Mike
JRM said:
In terms of the roles, it's a tricky area, I don't believe there is any legal reason why they should have to get rid of a sub-contractor before you, unless you can prove that they have the identical job descriptions
Just re-reading the posts now and this seams to stand out. I have the same job title so do the same job as many of the sub-contractors. I obviously can't get into the systems and read the job description but I would assume that they are not going to produce a different one for each employee so would assume they were the same. May be a question to ask anyway.
Thanks again all. Its a big help.
eggchaser1987 said:
JRM said:
In terms of the roles, it's a tricky area, I don't believe there is any legal reason why they should have to get rid of a sub-contractor before you, unless you can prove that they have the identical job descriptions
Just re-reading the posts now and this seams to stand out. I have the same job title so do the same job as many of the sub-contractors. I obviously can't get into the systems and read the job description but I would assume that they are not going to produce a different one for each employee so would assume they were the same. May be a question to ask anyway.
Thanks again all. Its a big help.
I'm afraid that if they have already ear-marked you for redundancy that they'll have that answer covered, but it is perfectly reasonable to ask the question.
If you really want to go after them for some sort of unfair dismissal then you would need to prove that the jobs are identical and without the official job description, which you'll have trouble getting, it probably isn't worth the strife. Particularly if your industry is not enormous and people could find out who the people likely to sue them are.
Never burn your bridges is the best advice I ever received. Tough times though, I've been through and it's very stressful, but you will come out the other side
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