"They took our jerbs!"
Discussion
So there I was, happily working away for a large corporation in a reasonably specialist I.T. role when the large corporation slave trade... sorry, 'TUPED' us over to an India based off-shore company who said they could provide the same services (including HR, and Finance) only cheaper.
Assurances were made, and we were cordially greeted into the India based off-shore family.
A couple months down the line, a few things have started to stand out; if timesheets arent filled in, holidays are deducted via an automated system. This proves problematic when the timesheet system rarely (for some), if ever (for me) works. I had around 28 days holiday to take, now I'm not sure how many I have any left (word on the street is they'll doc your pay if you run out of holidays?!)
Other quirks became apparent - deductions are never shown on payslips. I can only find how much I've been paid, but with no itemisation (a little while ago, we were 'accidentally' paid a huge bonus. Quite reasonably, we were expected to pay it back - but with the usual variable extra payments, such as on-call and overtime, I have no idea how much I've either earned or paid back. I just have to have supreme faith in their finance department. Which I struggle with)
But all this is fairly trivial. What concerns me now, is that were expected to carry out an information handover to a member of their off-shore I.T. team. He seems to have the absolute minimal knowledge of our field, just enough to get by, and wants full access to the systems we've built and maintained, which are still evolving, for over 5 years.
He outlined a plan to handover the day to day firefighting to a team of trainees (based in India) to take pressure off, and allow us to focus on project work and strategy. Sounds great...
Except now he's here, and he is in no way interested in the day to day running. He wants access to only the core systems, not the smaller sites that cause most of daily workload, and is only interested in the finer technicalities. I was tasked with taking him through a number of systems we felt could be safely handed over with minimal disruption - all of which he skimmed over and waved away. Then demanded access to the major systems. Today he tells me the off-shore team may not be going ahead after all. Management are being tight lipped about the whole thing.
So.
Where do I stand with the holidays? Can a company really deduct holidays if timesheets aren't filled in?!
Is there any law, or ANYTHING, that states we must be shown how much we are paid and why?
How tight lipped can I be over our systems? Obviously thur turkin err jerbs, but I wouldn't expect a plumber to give up his trade to a total stranger? Can they force me to give up access and knowledge? (OK, the former yes - they probably can. But the latter?)
Thanks for reading this far. Any advice appreciated.
Assurances were made, and we were cordially greeted into the India based off-shore family.
A couple months down the line, a few things have started to stand out; if timesheets arent filled in, holidays are deducted via an automated system. This proves problematic when the timesheet system rarely (for some), if ever (for me) works. I had around 28 days holiday to take, now I'm not sure how many I have any left (word on the street is they'll doc your pay if you run out of holidays?!)
Other quirks became apparent - deductions are never shown on payslips. I can only find how much I've been paid, but with no itemisation (a little while ago, we were 'accidentally' paid a huge bonus. Quite reasonably, we were expected to pay it back - but with the usual variable extra payments, such as on-call and overtime, I have no idea how much I've either earned or paid back. I just have to have supreme faith in their finance department. Which I struggle with)
But all this is fairly trivial. What concerns me now, is that were expected to carry out an information handover to a member of their off-shore I.T. team. He seems to have the absolute minimal knowledge of our field, just enough to get by, and wants full access to the systems we've built and maintained, which are still evolving, for over 5 years.
He outlined a plan to handover the day to day firefighting to a team of trainees (based in India) to take pressure off, and allow us to focus on project work and strategy. Sounds great...
Except now he's here, and he is in no way interested in the day to day running. He wants access to only the core systems, not the smaller sites that cause most of daily workload, and is only interested in the finer technicalities. I was tasked with taking him through a number of systems we felt could be safely handed over with minimal disruption - all of which he skimmed over and waved away. Then demanded access to the major systems. Today he tells me the off-shore team may not be going ahead after all. Management are being tight lipped about the whole thing.
So.
Where do I stand with the holidays? Can a company really deduct holidays if timesheets aren't filled in?!
Is there any law, or ANYTHING, that states we must be shown how much we are paid and why?
How tight lipped can I be over our systems? Obviously thur turkin err jerbs, but I wouldn't expect a plumber to give up his trade to a total stranger? Can they force me to give up access and knowledge? (OK, the former yes - they probably can. But the latter?)
Thanks for reading this far. Any advice appreciated.
Edited by THX on Wednesday 27th August 19:15
I'll be interested to see how this thread goes. I've been banging on about us (is in UK workers) being made to hand over more and more of our IT 'knowledge' to offshore india for about 5 years. Nothing wrong in that many people say, it's supply and demand based on a global scale, but it's not that simple is it!
Why am I increasingly finding myself working in corporate company offices filled with large numbers of imported Indian workers? How are they getting working visas? Why aren't we expecting companies to employ and train up local resources anymore?
No problem with employing offshore if they offshore, but not so happy with this model somehow being used as an enabler to fill UK offices with cheap foreign workers from outside the EU.
Why am I increasingly finding myself working in corporate company offices filled with large numbers of imported Indian workers? How are they getting working visas? Why aren't we expecting companies to employ and train up local resources anymore?
No problem with employing offshore if they offshore, but not so happy with this model somehow being used as an enabler to fill UK offices with cheap foreign workers from outside the EU.
Generally speaking I've never had an issue with people coming in to work in the UK. I never subscribed to the whole "they took our jerbs!" rant, right up until it's looking like they're taking my jerb...
Large scale off-shore operations I never found very threatening, as the service was reliably awful. And everyone knew it.
I've had to deal with a couple of this companies off-shore departments, and it was a painful experience. And I'm about as laid-back as they come.
I'm turning to PH because, whatever anyone may say about the powerfully built directors here, I know there's some smart people always willing to contribute. And right now I feel I need some sober advice from someone who knows better.
Large scale off-shore operations I never found very threatening, as the service was reliably awful. And everyone knew it.
I've had to deal with a couple of this companies off-shore departments, and it was a painful experience. And I'm about as laid-back as they come.
I'm turning to PH because, whatever anyone may say about the powerfully built directors here, I know there's some smart people always willing to contribute. And right now I feel I need some sober advice from someone who knows better.
The first thought that occurred to me is make 100% sure you are watertight with handover, give them everything they ask for, and make sure its all documented fully.
The reason I say this is simple : If what you say is true they will get to take all this stuff over and they will f
k it up. If (when?) that happens you want to ensure there is no comeback on your team, furthermore you can prove you've handed absolutely everything over so the offshore guys can't say "But we didn't know/they didn't tell us/we haven't been trained" etc.
If it really is as bad as you say the only hope you've got is that they fk it up so badly that the whole plan is scrapped.
The management will only understand bottom line, if they start costing they will be forced to reconsider.
Aside from that I'd check your employment contract and company handbook with regards to deduction of holiday. If nothing is mentioned then I'd be surprised if they can deduct holiday on a whim.
With regards to pay, surely they must have to provide you with a structure on how you earn money with regards to call outs / overtime etc. Do the calculations for last month - if you can't match their figures put in an enquiry, if you don't get one escalate the issue. It'd be better if there is a group of you doing this.
Good luck chap, I hope the situation isn't as bad as it seems.
The reason I say this is simple : If what you say is true they will get to take all this stuff over and they will f
k it up. If (when?) that happens you want to ensure there is no comeback on your team, furthermore you can prove you've handed absolutely everything over so the offshore guys can't say "But we didn't know/they didn't tell us/we haven't been trained" etc.If it really is as bad as you say the only hope you've got is that they f
k it up so badly that the whole plan is scrapped.The management will only understand bottom line, if they start costing they will be forced to reconsider.
Aside from that I'd check your employment contract and company handbook with regards to deduction of holiday. If nothing is mentioned then I'd be surprised if they can deduct holiday on a whim.
With regards to pay, surely they must have to provide you with a structure on how you earn money with regards to call outs / overtime etc. Do the calculations for last month - if you can't match their figures put in an enquiry, if you don't get one escalate the issue. It'd be better if there is a group of you doing this.
Good luck chap, I hope the situation isn't as bad as it seems.
Cheers mate.
We actually haven't been tasked with writing any documentation - they have a fella doing that. Which is what makes us nervous, as the systems we support aren't that straight forward - the work is often subjective and you're required to think on your feet. No documentation could absolutely cover that off - which is why we're reluctant to commit anything.
I agree that our best hope is that they fk it all up, and I'm sure they're capable of doing that. I just fear that a slimy management would be able to smooth it over, and the rebound would never quite stretch to returning responsibility to us.
We actually haven't been tasked with writing any documentation - they have a fella doing that. Which is what makes us nervous, as the systems we support aren't that straight forward - the work is often subjective and you're required to think on your feet. No documentation could absolutely cover that off - which is why we're reluctant to commit anything.
I agree that our best hope is that they f
k it all up, and I'm sure they're capable of doing that. I just fear that a slimy management would be able to smooth it over, and the rebound would never quite stretch to returning responsibility to us. Been there, done that.
If you want to stay tight lipped then get another job and leave early, otherwise if you are told that you have to hand over systems to others then do it. It isn't your job to worry about the consequences.
If you want to protect your knowledge then don't tell them stuff that you have learnt that makes the job easier or anything about best practices. Just tell them what they need to know, get the stuff handed over then move on.
If you want to stay tight lipped then get another job and leave early, otherwise if you are told that you have to hand over systems to others then do it. It isn't your job to worry about the consequences.
If you want to protect your knowledge then don't tell them stuff that you have learnt that makes the job easier or anything about best practices. Just tell them what they need to know, get the stuff handed over then move on.
THX said:
So there I was, happily working away for a large corporation in a reasonably specialist I.T. role when the large corporation slave trade... sorry, 'TUPED' us over to an India based off-shore company who said they could provide the same services (including HR, and Finance) only cheaper.
Assurances were made, and we were cordially greeted into the India based off-shore family.
A couple months down the line, a few things have started to stand out; if timesheets arent filled in, holidays are deducted via an automated system. This proves problematic when the timesheet system rarely (for some), if ever (for me) works. I had around 28 days holiday to take, now I'm not sure how many I have any left (word on the street is they'll doc your pay if you run out of holidays?!)
Other quirks became apparent - deductions are never shown on payslips. I can only find how much I've been paid, but with no itemisation (a little while ago, we were 'accidentally' paid a huge bonus. Quite reasonably, we were expected to pay it back - but with the usual variable extra payments, such as on-call and overtime, I have no idea how much I've either earned or paid back. I just have to have supreme faith in their finance department. Which I struggle with)
But all this is fairly trivial. What concerns me now, is that were expected to carry out an information handover to a member of their off-shore I.T. team. He seems to have the absolute minimal knowledge of our field, just enough to get by, and wants full access to the systems we've built and maintained, which are still evolving, for over 5 years.
He outlined a plan to handover the day to day firefighting to a team of trainees (based in India) to take pressure off, and allow us to focus on project work and strategy. Sounds great...
Except now he's here, and he is in no way interested in the day to day running. He wants access to only the core systems, not the smaller sites that cause most of daily workload, and is only interested in the finer technicalities. I was tasked with taking him through a number of systems we felt could be safely handed over with minimal disruption - all of which he skimmed over and waved away. Then demanded access to the major systems. Today he tells me the off-shore team may not be going ahead after all. Management are being tight lipped about the whole thing.
So.
Where do I stand with the holidays? Can a company really deduct holidays if timesheets aren't filled in?!
Is there any law, or ANYTHING, that states we must be shown how much we are paid and why?
How tight lipped can I be over our systems? Obviously thur turkin err jerbs, but I wouldn't expect a plumber to give up his trade to a total stranger? Can they force me to give up access and knowledge? (OK, the former yes - they probably can. But the latter?)
Thanks for reading this far. Any advice appreciated.
Payslips - Sorry too busy to look at this in detail, but the ERA 1996 specifies an itemised payslip .Assurances were made, and we were cordially greeted into the India based off-shore family.
A couple months down the line, a few things have started to stand out; if timesheets arent filled in, holidays are deducted via an automated system. This proves problematic when the timesheet system rarely (for some), if ever (for me) works. I had around 28 days holiday to take, now I'm not sure how many I have any left (word on the street is they'll doc your pay if you run out of holidays?!)
Other quirks became apparent - deductions are never shown on payslips. I can only find how much I've been paid, but with no itemisation (a little while ago, we were 'accidentally' paid a huge bonus. Quite reasonably, we were expected to pay it back - but with the usual variable extra payments, such as on-call and overtime, I have no idea how much I've either earned or paid back. I just have to have supreme faith in their finance department. Which I struggle with)
But all this is fairly trivial. What concerns me now, is that were expected to carry out an information handover to a member of their off-shore I.T. team. He seems to have the absolute minimal knowledge of our field, just enough to get by, and wants full access to the systems we've built and maintained, which are still evolving, for over 5 years.
He outlined a plan to handover the day to day firefighting to a team of trainees (based in India) to take pressure off, and allow us to focus on project work and strategy. Sounds great...
Except now he's here, and he is in no way interested in the day to day running. He wants access to only the core systems, not the smaller sites that cause most of daily workload, and is only interested in the finer technicalities. I was tasked with taking him through a number of systems we felt could be safely handed over with minimal disruption - all of which he skimmed over and waved away. Then demanded access to the major systems. Today he tells me the off-shore team may not be going ahead after all. Management are being tight lipped about the whole thing.
So.
Where do I stand with the holidays? Can a company really deduct holidays if timesheets aren't filled in?!
Is there any law, or ANYTHING, that states we must be shown how much we are paid and why?
How tight lipped can I be over our systems? Obviously thur turkin err jerbs, but I wouldn't expect a plumber to give up his trade to a total stranger? Can they force me to give up access and knowledge? (OK, the former yes - they probably can. But the latter?)
Thanks for reading this far. Any advice appreciated.
Edited by THX on Wednesday 27th August 19:15
Knowledge transfer - handing over is a reasonable management instruction, so follow it. But document it clearly, plus any concerns.
Holiday - above the WTR it may be a contractual matter, hence check you contract and related documentation. Under WTR level then they are in breach of WTR and ERA wrt to unlawful deductions.
Take specialist advice to be clear on your personal situation and how to handle internally.
Cheers for the advice everyone!
It's not the end of the world, and I've had a good innings on this job so shouldn't grumble. re; the handover, it's easy to get wrapped up in your own insecurities when this stuff happens so maybe I should just accept the circumstances and look to moving on. Would be a shame to let this go (good money, flexible hours and all that) but other people have found their backs far closer to the wall than I so, you know.
Oh, and I will add; I'm getting my fking holiday back. I'll not be so laid back about that.
It's not the end of the world, and I've had a good innings on this job so shouldn't grumble. re; the handover, it's easy to get wrapped up in your own insecurities when this stuff happens so maybe I should just accept the circumstances and look to moving on. Would be a shame to let this go (good money, flexible hours and all that) but other people have found their backs far closer to the wall than I so, you know.
Oh, and I will add; I'm getting my f
king holiday back. I'll not be so laid back about that.Edited by THX on Friday 29th August 19:18
So, it has transpired that the company I work for have withheld my pay this month because of missing time sheets.
To be clear; we fill in three time sheets on three different systems. Two state the same information (daily grind) one is for over time and on call. Only one of the daily grind time sheets is missing (due to system error)
Does this depend on a company handbook? I'm struggling to comprehend how this can happen...
To be clear; we fill in three time sheets on three different systems. Two state the same information (daily grind) one is for over time and on call. Only one of the daily grind time sheets is missing (due to system error)
Does this depend on a company handbook? I'm struggling to comprehend how this can happen...
Breadvan72 said:
Raise a grievance if this problem persists. You can give an ultimatum demanding payment, as failure to pay wages is a repudiation of the contract, but claiming constructive dismissal has the down side of losing the job.
I've raised it with HR, but they tell me that the process is a 'long, tedious and painstaking' one to correct. I asked when I should expect to be paid, and they told me the matter should be 'actioned' within 72 hours.So, it's getting done. Albeit with a moan.
Just to make my day even brighter, my mobile banking app expired (well, the card registered against it). To re-register you need your online banking details (which I didn't have). I know from experience you cant just call up the bank and get it back; too many security checks. Unable to transfer funds, I was convinced I'd default on the mortgage... until I got a trainee in their call centre! He gave up the info I asked for without question. I hope no one was recording his calls...
And then my one and only (senior) colleague handed his notice in. Taking his remaining holidays into account, he's with us for one more week. How this changes any handover, I've absolutely no idea. But it means, for the foreseeable at least, there's a world of s
t on my shoulders.I realise this became a rant. I've really nowhere else to get it off my chest.
THX said:
So, it has transpired that the company I work for have withheld my pay this month because of missing time sheets.
I'd expect this sort of thing as a contractor but not as a perm, they should pay you the end of each month regardless of timesheet.It will get worse for you, the ops model will tighten up on overtime and callout payments. Try to get over to Projects otherwise jump ship. They will have a pot of money for ops but projects will be charged for so they won't mind so much using better/more expensive people, OT, etc.
THX said:
I've raised it with HR, but they tell me that the process is a 'long, tedious and painstaking' one to correct. I asked when I should expect to be paid, and they told me the matter should be 'actioned' within 72 hours.
Ring them everyday and ask them if it has been sorted out. It's should only be 5 minutes of your time each day. In fact why not ring them two or three times a day. Are you a contractor by the way?
sugerbear said:
Ring them everyday and ask them if it has been sorted out. It's should only be 5 minutes of your time each day. In fact why not ring them two or three times a day.
Are you a contractor by the way?
AndrewO, thanks mate all good advice.Are you a contractor by the way?
I believe I'm already on a Project, so work is recharged.
I'm on a permanent contract. Never known this to happen before, at all.
They've claimed the issue would be resolved within 72 hours, but here we are and now they say + 2 - 3 days
I'm quite capable of having an email based super-tantrum at them, and part of me thinks it's worth while to at least attempt to avoid a similar situation in the future, but another part of me thinks... What's the f
king point?! The HR / Finance people care about my personal finances about as much as I care about the well being of a PC on our network out of hours.If it doesn't happen before Friday, I'll go full Airport Naomi Campbell. Via email, of course.
THX said:
I believe I'm already on a Project, so work is recharged.
If it doesn't happen before Friday, I'll go full Airport Naomi Campbell. Via email, of course.
If you are able to deliver you will be fine, they won't have people that really know the systems so delivering offshore takes longer.If it doesn't happen before Friday, I'll go full Airport Naomi Campbell. Via email, of course.
Careful on email, done that a couple of times and it never ends well
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