Cleaner/dog walker, how to pay?
Discussion
sidekickdmr said:
Do they have to do the work themselves? - No, then can send someone else if they wish.
Can someone tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it? - She will have a list of tasks, what and when she does them is up to her.
Can they work a set amount of hours? Yes
Can someone move them from task to task? No, she would manage her own time
Are they paid by the hour, week, or month? Would be a day/week rate paid via invoice
Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment? - No
Can they hire someone to do the work or engage helpers at their own expense? - Yes
Do they risk their own money? - No
Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves? - No
Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take? - Yes
Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services? - Yes
Do they regularly work for a number of different people? - They can do, could have 10 jobs for all i care
Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense? - Yes
Its pretty clear you're just trying to force the answers to fit the answer you want Can someone tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it? - She will have a list of tasks, what and when she does them is up to her.
Can they work a set amount of hours? Yes
Can someone move them from task to task? No, she would manage her own time
Are they paid by the hour, week, or month? Would be a day/week rate paid via invoice
Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment? - No
Can they hire someone to do the work or engage helpers at their own expense? - Yes
Do they risk their own money? - No
Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves? - No
Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take? - Yes
Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services? - Yes
Do they regularly work for a number of different people? - They can do, could have 10 jobs for all i care
Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense? - Yes
Try this theoretical one on for size :
You hire the nice old lady in her 60's who lives down the street. Super responsible, and you're perfectly happy with her. She can't be bothered coming one day, so sends her 20 year old grandson to hang out in your house alone instead. Are you going to allow that ?
"She will have a list of tasks, what and when she does them is up to her." - thats completely unrealistic, she's going to have to do it all within a specific time window and will fail this point.
" No, she would manage her own time" - untrue, she's going to be there when you tell her. She's also going to have to do things when you tell her... if you say walk the dogs then do the cleaning she isn't going to be able to say no I'm going to do it the other way around.
Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take? - Yes - thats not true at all, you're saying she's going to be there for a set number of hours.
Do they regularly work for a number of different people? - They can do, could have 10 jobs for all i care - no they can't, as they work for you for 4+ hours every day. You know, I know, the tax man knows, you're their sole employer.
Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense? - Yes - also untrue. You can't ask them to continue to work for free for whatever reason.
If you want to twist the rules and employ her cash in hand.... just go ahead and do it. Its pointless lying to yourself and to us online to try and justify it
KFC said:
Its pretty clear you're just trying to force the answers to fit the answer you want
Try this theoretical one on for size :
You hire the nice old lady in her 60's who lives down the street. Super responsible, and you're perfectly happy with her. She can't be bothered coming one day, so sends her 20 year old grandson to hang out in your house alone instead. Are you going to allow that ?
Via proir agreement I dont see why not, no different to a cleaning company or dog walking company sending a replacement to cover holiday/sick, which they often do.
"She will have a list of tasks, what and when she does them is up to her." - thats completely unrealistic, she's going to have to do it all within a specific time window and will fail this point.
Im not going to tell her what to do when, there will be a list, as long as its done by time I get home I dont mind in what order.
" No, she would manage her own time" - untrue, she's going to be there when you tell her. She's also going to have to do things when you tell her... if you say walk the dogs then do the cleaning she isn't going to be able to say no I'm going to do it the other way around.
Agreed on the hours, but why would I mind if she wants to hoover before taking the dogs out?
Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take? - Yes - thats not true at all, you're saying she's going to be there for a set number of hours.
Agreed I mis-read that question, the hours will be set
Do they regularly work for a number of different people? - They can do, could have 10 jobs for all i care - no they can't, as they work for you for 4+ hours every day. You know, I know, the tax man knows, you're their sole employer.
Why cant she go and walk someone elses dog at 3.30, or clean someones house on a saturday? Iim not going to stop her.
Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense? - Yes - also untrue. You can't ask them to continue to work for free for whatever reason.
If I get home and she has failed to do a job, I would hapilly get her back to do it, the same as anyone else im paying for a service. If i paid an oven cleaner and it wasnt good enough id get them back.
If you want to twist the rules and employ her cash in hand.... just go ahead and do it. Its pointless lying to yourself and to us online to try and justify it
Im not trying to be ackward and honestly appreciate the time your taking helping, just fail to understand how its any different to hiring a cleaner and dog walker from yellow pages.Try this theoretical one on for size :
You hire the nice old lady in her 60's who lives down the street. Super responsible, and you're perfectly happy with her. She can't be bothered coming one day, so sends her 20 year old grandson to hang out in your house alone instead. Are you going to allow that ?
Via proir agreement I dont see why not, no different to a cleaning company or dog walking company sending a replacement to cover holiday/sick, which they often do.
"She will have a list of tasks, what and when she does them is up to her." - thats completely unrealistic, she's going to have to do it all within a specific time window and will fail this point.
Im not going to tell her what to do when, there will be a list, as long as its done by time I get home I dont mind in what order.
" No, she would manage her own time" - untrue, she's going to be there when you tell her. She's also going to have to do things when you tell her... if you say walk the dogs then do the cleaning she isn't going to be able to say no I'm going to do it the other way around.
Agreed on the hours, but why would I mind if she wants to hoover before taking the dogs out?
Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take? - Yes - thats not true at all, you're saying she's going to be there for a set number of hours.
Agreed I mis-read that question, the hours will be set
Do they regularly work for a number of different people? - They can do, could have 10 jobs for all i care - no they can't, as they work for you for 4+ hours every day. You know, I know, the tax man knows, you're their sole employer.
Why cant she go and walk someone elses dog at 3.30, or clean someones house on a saturday? Iim not going to stop her.
Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense? - Yes - also untrue. You can't ask them to continue to work for free for whatever reason.
If I get home and she has failed to do a job, I would hapilly get her back to do it, the same as anyone else im paying for a service. If i paid an oven cleaner and it wasnt good enough id get them back.
If you want to twist the rules and employ her cash in hand.... just go ahead and do it. Its pointless lying to yourself and to us online to try and justify it
Im a contractor, I have worked for the same company 40 hours a week for over 3 1/2 years now. Im self employed and send a monthly invoice made up of day rate x 20 or so.
whats the difference im missing here?
sidekickdmr said:
Im not trying to be ackward and honestly appreciate the time your taking helping, just fail to understand how its any different to hiring a cleaner and dog walker from yellow pages.
Im a contractor, I have worked for the same company 40 hours a week for over 3 1/2 years now. Im self employed and send a monthly invoice made up of day rate x 20 or so.
whats the difference im missing here?
IR35. Im a contractor, I have worked for the same company 40 hours a week for over 3 1/2 years now. Im self employed and send a monthly invoice made up of day rate x 20 or so.
whats the difference im missing here?
IR35 only applies if the "self employed" individual is billing through an "intermediary" of some sort - such as a limited company or a partnership.
As indicated by the OP's line of questions, most people generally do not truly understand the subtleties involved in deciding whether a person has been engaged on an employed or a "self employed" basis.
And they also don't understand the costs they might incur if they get it wrong.
As indicated by the OP's line of questions, most people generally do not truly understand the subtleties involved in deciding whether a person has been engaged on an employed or a "self employed" basis.
And they also don't understand the costs they might incur if they get it wrong.
otolith said:
I have to wonder whether the amount of complexity and red tape around something like this is really appropriate - and how much of what is currently the black economy would be taxed if it were simplified.
Its hard to say... as by far the least complex and cheapest way to do it is to simply pay someone cash in hand for dog walking or cleaning. I've used both extensively in the past... and always paid cash and never asked for a receipt, invoice, or cared about the employment status etc. I just figured the chances of anything coming of it were so remote that I didn't care. And I certainly don't care if someone earning 10 euros an hour or less is fiddling their tax.KFC said:
otolith said:
I have to wonder whether the amount of complexity and red tape around something like this is really appropriate - and how much of what is currently the black economy would be taxed if it were simplified.
Its hard to say... as by far the least complex and cheapest way to do it is to simply pay someone cash in hand for dog walking or cleaning. I've used both extensively in the past... and always paid cash and never asked for a receipt, invoice, or cared about the employment status etc. I just figured the chances of anything coming of it were so remote that I didn't care. And I certainly don't care if someone earning 10 euros an hour or less is fiddling their tax.otolith said:
KFC said:
otolith said:
I have to wonder whether the amount of complexity and red tape around something like this is really appropriate - and how much of what is currently the black economy would be taxed if it were simplified.
Its hard to say... as by far the least complex and cheapest way to do it is to simply pay someone cash in hand for dog walking or cleaning. I've used both extensively in the past... and always paid cash and never asked for a receipt, invoice, or cared about the employment status etc. I just figured the chances of anything coming of it were so remote that I didn't care. And I certainly don't care if someone earning 10 euros an hour or less is fiddling their tax.Of course, the chances of getting caught are fairly slim - but that is the risk you have to be happy with when deciding not to comply with the rules.
Eric Mc said:
otolith said:
KFC said:
otolith said:
I have to wonder whether the amount of complexity and red tape around something like this is really appropriate - and how much of what is currently the black economy would be taxed if it were simplified.
Its hard to say... as by far the least complex and cheapest way to do it is to simply pay someone cash in hand for dog walking or cleaning. I've used both extensively in the past... and always paid cash and never asked for a receipt, invoice, or cared about the employment status etc. I just figured the chances of anything coming of it were so remote that I didn't care. And I certainly don't care if someone earning 10 euros an hour or less is fiddling their tax.Of course, the chances of getting caught are fairly slim - but that is the risk you have to be happy with when deciding not to comply with the rules.
otolith said:
Changing the system to make it easier and cheaper for people to be within it may increase overall tax take. You shouldn't need advice from an accountant in this sort of situation.
HMRC would be more than happy for you not to use an accountant. In fact, in most "Domestic Employee" situations, accountants aren't needed. But what is needed is that the "employer" does a bit of homework to find out what his/her legal obligations are.
Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff