Am I being worked illegally?
Discussion
Breadvan72 said:
Everything is fundamentally wrong with zero hours contracts They lack mutuality of obligation and are inherently unfair and exploitative.
And are wonderfully useful and appropriate for a lot of people. My wife is on one, it's great, works and gets paid when she wants to.Breadvan72 said:
I assume that you have a full time job, so your wife's work is elective. Imagine that she was dependent on the whim of a zero hour employer to make a living.
Well my experience of them is that that are very good in certain circumstances. Now I own companies, I use them when, for example, people are ill. The employee who will come in most days but not on the days when an ill relative needs help. So the employee with an elderly and sick parent, for example.We also use them for people who want to be seasonal, particularly working more in winter than in summer which suits them and us.
And so on. Not everyone by any means, but there are a lot of people for whom it is a mutal benefit that works well.
Either way the workers in question can vote with their feet.
The last two purchases I made from Amazon each cost under three pounds and still came with free postage, it would have cost me more for the goods and the same again in fuel if I had tried to buy them locally. They will have to be pretty efficient with their costs to be able to achieve this and that's fine with me and presumably fine with anyone else that has ever ordered from them.
There is always other work out there, there is training, there is qualification, there is opportunity. If people choose not to try for these things and have other priorities then they may not always get a job that ticks every box they would like it to.
The last two purchases I made from Amazon each cost under three pounds and still came with free postage, it would have cost me more for the goods and the same again in fuel if I had tried to buy them locally. They will have to be pretty efficient with their costs to be able to achieve this and that's fine with me and presumably fine with anyone else that has ever ordered from them.
There is always other work out there, there is training, there is qualification, there is opportunity. If people choose not to try for these things and have other priorities then they may not always get a job that ticks every box they would like it to.
Breadvan72 said:
You are operating flexible working, and are not a faceless megacorporation. The system is abused by corps such as Amazon, running a very one sided arrangement.
Sure, it is abused by some without doubt, but I'm picking up on the statement "Everything is fundamentally wrong with zero hours contracts."It isn't, it's a very good way of working for many, but unfortunately it isn't always so good for others.
The generality is that the zero hour contract is used in mass employment situations for the benefit of only one party to the contract. You could achieve your business objectives without this instrument, but it is geared up to aid a form of irresponsible capitalism. I buy books locally, not from Amazon, as I don't care to support that company's ruthless employment and tax cultures, and don't want to save a few quid at the expense of someone on minimum wage.
Breadvan72 said:
Spoken like someone in a comfortable position who isn't compelled by economic need to take whatever crappy job is on offer.
That's kind of true, I don't need to take crappy jobs any more because I've done them, taken training and qualifications and looked for opportunities.On the other hand, I'm self employed so I don't get paid if there's no work to do, I get no holiday pay and no sick pay, a lot like zero hours.
From a fortunate position I have a possibly naive view of zero hour contracts as being a bit of a mixed bag.
On the one hand I can imagine that to many people, some work, is better than no work.
On the other side, I've heard that some employers still expect "exclusivity" from their staff despite offering no loyalty in return - it seems fundamentally wrong that they can say "Well we won't guarantee you any hours at all, but you can't work for anyone else".
On the one hand I can imagine that to many people, some work, is better than no work.
On the other side, I've heard that some employers still expect "exclusivity" from their staff despite offering no loyalty in return - it seems fundamentally wrong that they can say "Well we won't guarantee you any hours at all, but you can't work for anyone else".
Breadvan72 said:
You are operating flexible working, and are not a faceless megacorporation. The system is abused by corps such as Amazon, running a very one sided arrangement.
Indeed, some companies abuse the zero hour contracts. Doesn't mean there's anything fundamentally wrong with zero hours contracts.I speak as someone who took advantage of one when I was studying, but there are of course many other examples of mutual benefits.
I think the point to me is that it's not zero hour contracts that are the problem. The problem is when people have to work at things in conditions and agreements that are forced on them against their wish.
But that's hard territory, what works well for one is awful to another. It seems hard to outlaw an agreement that doesn't work well for someone when that may well work well for another.
But that's hard territory, what works well for one is awful to another. It seems hard to outlaw an agreement that doesn't work well for someone when that may well work well for another.
Breadvan72 said:
The generality is that the zero hour contract is used in mass employment situations for the benefit of only one party to the contract.
Ah the old factory gate ploy for the modern age, wait around the factory gate for someone to come out and say I need three platers/welders etc etc. Centurion07 said:
Bad example.
There are plenty of jobs out there where you are expected to do unpaid overtime.
If you are on a salary then it's not unpaid overtime - it's your job. If you are on a day rate or per-task rate then it's not unpaid overtime - it's your job. If you are on an hourly rate and you are being made to work more hours then you should be paid for them. Either that or you should be being paid some other way.There are plenty of jobs out there where you are expected to do unpaid overtime.
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