Has my ex-employer gone too far?
Discussion
Worked for a firm for a year, last August was sacked for a trumped up gross misconduct claim (it's irrelevant the detail, but it was a convenient way for them to cut costs without any comeback due to my tenure. They didn't follow ACAS guidelines, didn't have evidence, etc.).
Since then have renovated the house, and have won a contract as a self employed consultant - the client needed me to do a basic MoD clearance due to the site.
The form I signed made it clear it was merely ensuring I had worked where I said, was who I say I am etc. Confirmed this with the security officer dealing with it when I rang with a few questions.
The client has now come back saying my ex-employer has given the reason for leaving as dismissal, so have understandably come to me for answers, which I've given. They've let me know they need to discuss things, but it's likely to effect me being able to continue.
I didn't mention what had happened, as rightly or wrongly, I considered the fact I'm now contracting (with all the differences that brings) makes my history as an employee far less relevant - I'm hired for a fixed time to do a job, I either do it or my contract gets terminated.
As I'm pretty sure the client didn't ask for reason for leaving, is it appropriate that my ex-employer has given it? If the was 'Did Sway work there from X to y, with Z job title?' are they entitled to give any further response than 'yes'?
Since then have renovated the house, and have won a contract as a self employed consultant - the client needed me to do a basic MoD clearance due to the site.
The form I signed made it clear it was merely ensuring I had worked where I said, was who I say I am etc. Confirmed this with the security officer dealing with it when I rang with a few questions.
The client has now come back saying my ex-employer has given the reason for leaving as dismissal, so have understandably come to me for answers, which I've given. They've let me know they need to discuss things, but it's likely to effect me being able to continue.
I didn't mention what had happened, as rightly or wrongly, I considered the fact I'm now contracting (with all the differences that brings) makes my history as an employee far less relevant - I'm hired for a fixed time to do a job, I either do it or my contract gets terminated.
As I'm pretty sure the client didn't ask for reason for leaving, is it appropriate that my ex-employer has given it? If the was 'Did Sway work there from X to y, with Z job title?' are they entitled to give any further response than 'yes'?
Sway said:
As I'm pretty sure the client didn't ask for reason for leaving, is it appropriate that my ex-employer has given it? If the was 'Did Sway work there from X to y, with Z job title?' are they entitled to give any further response than 'yes'?
Are you trying to argue a point of principle or trying to make another angle? What are you hoping to achieve? Has any of the information been incorrect or misleading?The information is correct, however do they have the right to volunteer it if unasked?
As said, the form I signed stated the purpose was solely to verify the periods of employment - not why I left etc. So if my ex-employer has given this information unasked is that acceptable?
The client haven't asked for references - they are treating me like any other supplier (can I do the job, how much is it going to cost and how long), not an employee.
As said, the form I signed stated the purpose was solely to verify the periods of employment - not why I left etc. So if my ex-employer has given this information unasked is that acceptable?
The client haven't asked for references - they are treating me like any other supplier (can I do the job, how much is it going to cost and how long), not an employee.
As far as your ex-employer is concerned, no. The reason for you ending work with them was dismissal, wasn't it? That's not at issue.
Given the changes to the unfair dismissal rules in 2012, there was no need for them to trump up a gross misconduct - all they had to do was say "sorry, it's not working out" and show you the door. So for a company to go through the bother of a disciplinary procedure seems a little odd given the circumstances; certainly it would look odd to anybody in an HR position examining your application.
Given the changes to the unfair dismissal rules in 2012, there was no need for them to trump up a gross misconduct - all they had to do was say "sorry, it's not working out" and show you the door. So for a company to go through the bother of a disciplinary procedure seems a little odd given the circumstances; certainly it would look odd to anybody in an HR position examining your application.
The reason they went for gross misconduct was because of my notice period - they would have had to pay me for 3 months.
If they haven't gone too far in volunteering information then fine.
Completely buggers up my plans to set up on my own as a way of wiping the slate clean and performing as well as I have everywhere else I've worked. Had accepted that going for employment with this in my history was going to be tough, didn't realise it could easily effect my ability to supply a contract.
If they haven't gone too far in volunteering information then fine.
Completely buggers up my plans to set up on my own as a way of wiping the slate clean and performing as well as I have everywhere else I've worked. Had accepted that going for employment with this in my history was going to be tough, didn't realise it could easily effect my ability to supply a contract.
Gross misconduct for breach of confidence - I told a team member that the project I was leading wasn't looking at job descriptions or new roles - she wanted a promotion, and after being poached gave my comments as the reason for leaving.
The fact that I wasn't looking at those things was on the publicly available project charter. They dismissed this as a valid excuse.
I did appeal, however this was overturned as it came down to my director (who I had a bad relationship with) stating the charter was confidential, and had been stored with all the others in error.
As I had been there for only 12 months there was no avenue to pursue unfair dismissal.
Fully accept it's a bad thing to have on my record, and no explanation will overcome those words on a page, hence starting up on my own as a contractor. Working on the principle that if I'm contracting a self employed plumber I'm interested in if he can do the job, how much he's going to charge, and how long he'll take. Whether he was fired we he was an employee for someone else wouldn't be able something I'd be able to ask.
The fact that I wasn't looking at those things was on the publicly available project charter. They dismissed this as a valid excuse.
I did appeal, however this was overturned as it came down to my director (who I had a bad relationship with) stating the charter was confidential, and had been stored with all the others in error.
As I had been there for only 12 months there was no avenue to pursue unfair dismissal.
Fully accept it's a bad thing to have on my record, and no explanation will overcome those words on a page, hence starting up on my own as a contractor. Working on the principle that if I'm contracting a self employed plumber I'm interested in if he can do the job, how much he's going to charge, and how long he'll take. Whether he was fired we he was an employee for someone else wouldn't be able something I'd be able to ask.
Isn't this going to present you an issue now in any future employment/contracting? Is it too late to challenge your prior employer?
I know our policy is to give very bland references confirming that the person worked at the company and nothing more as there seems to be a concern that any real information could present an issue. The problem is it seems you have an unchallenged dismissal on your "record" - we're not debating whether that was for good reason or not but you can see to a potential employer it is going to make them uncomfortable.
I know our policy is to give very bland references confirming that the person worked at the company and nothing more as there seems to be a concern that any real information could present an issue. The problem is it seems you have an unchallenged dismissal on your "record" - we're not debating whether that was for good reason or not but you can see to a potential employer it is going to make them uncomfortable.
I have no ability to challenge it. I had a disciplinary meeting where I was sacked, then had an appeal hearing where I was told the decision stood. I tried to resign when the allegation was first made, to be told that the disciplinary would proceed regardless, and the result placed on my record.
Unfair dismissal can only be claimed within a two year tenure for very specific reasons, which don't cover this.
It does seem that a very expensive mistake (not jumping of my own accord as soon as I realised how vindictive my boss could be) is going to have a longer lasting effect than I hoped.
Unfair dismissal can only be claimed within a two year tenure for very specific reasons, which don't cover this.
It does seem that a very expensive mistake (not jumping of my own accord as soon as I realised how vindictive my boss could be) is going to have a longer lasting effect than I hoped.
Sway said:
I have no ability to challenge it. I had a disciplinary meeting where I was sacked, then had an appeal hearing where I was told the decision stood. I tried to resign when the allegation was first made, to be told that the disciplinary would proceed regardless, and the result placed on my record.
Unfair dismissal can only be claimed within a two year tenure for very specific reasons, which don't cover this.
It does seem that a very expensive mistake (not jumping of my own accord as soon as I realised how vindictive my boss could be) is going to have a longer lasting effect than I hoped.
Is there any benefit in getting some legal advice? It seems a bit OTT that what appears to be an indiscretion (I know lots of indiscrete people, they don't all get fired for gross misconduct) is now impacting your future employment. Unfair dismissal can only be claimed within a two year tenure for very specific reasons, which don't cover this.
It does seem that a very expensive mistake (not jumping of my own accord as soon as I realised how vindictive my boss could be) is going to have a longer lasting effect than I hoped.
Given that it was a fairly senior role you were dismissed from, I'm very surprised you didn't lawyer up.
I'm no solicitor, but if you really do believe they went for unfair dismissal solely to avoid the notice period then you would have the beginnings of a case for breach of contract, which is actionable in court.
Even if it never got that far it would get you into a discussion with your former employers in which you could settle for "never mention it was dismissal".
I'm no solicitor, but if you really do believe they went for unfair dismissal solely to avoid the notice period then you would have the beginnings of a case for breach of contract, which is actionable in court.
Even if it never got that far it would get you into a discussion with your former employers in which you could settle for "never mention it was dismissal".
I didn't lawyer up as ACAS told me there was no avenue to follow...
I had a 'without prejudice' discussion with the HD Director and my director, where it was apparent what the decision was, and why my resignation wouldn't cut it. Had the conversation regarding agreed references, where I was told they would merely be accurate... As said, my boss can be very vicious, which I'd seen with a colleague previously, and should have learnt from immediately.
I am naive to a lot of HR/Employment stuff compared to my relative seniority within businesses - I've never been a line manager, or ever had anything like this.
I've been an 'internal consultant' where these sorts of projects/communications are normal (so it was an easy way to get me gone), and so I thought the best way to move forward would be to go external as a contractor where it shouldn't have been an issue...
I had a 'without prejudice' discussion with the HD Director and my director, where it was apparent what the decision was, and why my resignation wouldn't cut it. Had the conversation regarding agreed references, where I was told they would merely be accurate... As said, my boss can be very vicious, which I'd seen with a colleague previously, and should have learnt from immediately.
I am naive to a lot of HR/Employment stuff compared to my relative seniority within businesses - I've never been a line manager, or ever had anything like this.
I've been an 'internal consultant' where these sorts of projects/communications are normal (so it was an easy way to get me gone), and so I thought the best way to move forward would be to go external as a contractor where it shouldn't have been an issue...
ACAS are rubbish rubbish rubbish rubbish. Never take advice from them. You had and still have a common law remedy as on the facts you state your dismissal was a breach of contract. Unfair dismissal us irrelevant here. The relevant legal concept is wrongful dismissal.
Having said that, your ex employer is at liberty to say what it likes about you so long as what it says is true. Your supposition that an employer would not be interested in a new employee or contractor's work history is, I suggest, a tad naive.
Academic now, unless you want to sue for three month's pay. The limitation period for that is six years from the dismissal. Good luck in your new position.
Having said that, your ex employer is at liberty to say what it likes about you so long as what it says is true. Your supposition that an employer would not be interested in a new employee or contractor's work history is, I suggest, a tad naive.
Academic now, unless you want to sue for three month's pay. The limitation period for that is six years from the dismissal. Good luck in your new position.
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 31st January 08:34
Sway said:
Thanks BV.
I'm appreciating that ACAS are somewhat limited - a good few friends were puzzled why I didn't seem to have a case - here's why!
In some ways I am naive, however in this case I seem to have found a client who is of the same view as me, which bodes well.
Sway, I suspect as you were going for a cleared role the reference question might have had something along the lines of:I'm appreciating that ACAS are somewhat limited - a good few friends were puzzled why I didn't seem to have a case - here's why!
In some ways I am naive, however in this case I seem to have found a client who is of the same view as me, which bodes well.
"have you had cause to doubt the integrity of sway at any point".
The reason for dismissal would have then come up. If that's the case I think you've dodged one. But good luck in your new role.
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