Surveying career entry issue
Discussion
Firstly, I'm 22 and graduated from my undergrad degree last year in Management from a relatively solid uni (top 20 ranked). I opted for a career in commercial surveying so began a Real Estate MSc (RICS accredited), from which I will graduate this coming September.
As those in the industry will know, the obvious path to become MRICS is to join a graduate scheme which will last two years, during which the APC will be completed and the graduate surveyor will internally progress in accordance with their new qualification.
The problem is I have missed 99% of the graduate scheme application deadlines for the intake for September 2015 as I was completely ignorant as to the system; seemingly all the major players' deadlines (JLL/Savills/KF/CBRE/C&WF/Capita/Colliers/etc) closed before the new year and I have managed to scrape only two applications in (one of which I now believe was late).
I am unsure where to go from here as there seems to be very little way in to a surveying job which provides APC support and the relevant prospects. As far as I see my two options are:
1. Wait until the next round of applications and start in September 2016 (by which time I will be 24!)
2. Attempt to find work which relates to commercial surveying/property management and then try to find a way into a proper role, which seems difficult seeing as 90% of junior level surveying jobs are fed through a grad scheme, thus the next tier of entry seems to be with 2 minimum years experience and MRICS, which I obviously wouldn't fulfill.
It is, frustratingly, my own fault for not being more on the ball with applying earlier, compounded by the fact on paper I think I appear quite strong as a grad candidate, having a Mgt degree and having solid transferable business skills through my own biomass business which I have run for 3 years.
Would be very grateful for any input from people in the know. I'm really at a loss as to my options.
As those in the industry will know, the obvious path to become MRICS is to join a graduate scheme which will last two years, during which the APC will be completed and the graduate surveyor will internally progress in accordance with their new qualification.
The problem is I have missed 99% of the graduate scheme application deadlines for the intake for September 2015 as I was completely ignorant as to the system; seemingly all the major players' deadlines (JLL/Savills/KF/CBRE/C&WF/Capita/Colliers/etc) closed before the new year and I have managed to scrape only two applications in (one of which I now believe was late).
I am unsure where to go from here as there seems to be very little way in to a surveying job which provides APC support and the relevant prospects. As far as I see my two options are:
1. Wait until the next round of applications and start in September 2016 (by which time I will be 24!)
2. Attempt to find work which relates to commercial surveying/property management and then try to find a way into a proper role, which seems difficult seeing as 90% of junior level surveying jobs are fed through a grad scheme, thus the next tier of entry seems to be with 2 minimum years experience and MRICS, which I obviously wouldn't fulfill.
It is, frustratingly, my own fault for not being more on the ball with applying earlier, compounded by the fact on paper I think I appear quite strong as a grad candidate, having a Mgt degree and having solid transferable business skills through my own biomass business which I have run for 3 years.
Would be very grateful for any input from people in the know. I'm really at a loss as to my options.
Well that's the thing. All of the 'No-experience' jobs seem to be done through a yearly intake system, the deadlines for which I have laready missed.
I guess the firms' thinking is why take people at a loose end when they can cream the graduates a year in advance en masse with being signed on 6-7 months before the job start to facilitate an easy intake. Taking in 5-20 graduates at one time and having them all on the same training/development schedule just makes more sense than taking them in at odds and ends.
Today I worked through around 40 surveying firms (with a presence in London), one of them had a commercial surveying space available, 22 of them did have but the deadline for this year has closed.
Thank you for your reply though, I will keep looking into it
I guess the firms' thinking is why take people at a loose end when they can cream the graduates a year in advance en masse with being signed on 6-7 months before the job start to facilitate an easy intake. Taking in 5-20 graduates at one time and having them all on the same training/development schedule just makes more sense than taking them in at odds and ends.
Today I worked through around 40 surveying firms (with a presence in London), one of them had a commercial surveying space available, 22 of them did have but the deadline for this year has closed.
Thank you for your reply though, I will keep looking into it
Firstly, what area of practice would you like to go into, eventually? What interests you most? This will affect whether you need to be MRICS - most surveying professionals need to be qualified though, very, very few people I come across in the top firms aren't qualified.
As you're finding, the main firms (those with decent graduate schemes and APC support) will all have closed their recruitment process by now - I think my firm has already had at least one round of interviews! They all get a huge number of applicants (1500 last year I think) for maybe 30 roles, so I can understand them closing the books early!
It used to be the case that firms took on non-rotational graduates which sit outside of the grad scheme, although I think that's less common now (certainly in the top firms). This might be useful to you as you'd get 'on the job' training and help with your APC, but the department which recruits you would expect you to stay on and not just be angling for a move to another area. In 2003, this is the route I took - but the markets, and surveying itself, were very different.
If you've got a strong CV, and some decent work experience on it (I'm amazed at the quality of CVs for surveying roles these days - I wouldn't get a job now!), then you've got a decent chance of finding something with a bit of legwork. You probably won't get anything in the top 3 firms, in one of the most sought after departments - but I'd be amazed if a 'foot in the door' wasn't possible. The big question you'd have to overcome is 'why didn't you apply through the graduate intake process'?
As you're finding, the main firms (those with decent graduate schemes and APC support) will all have closed their recruitment process by now - I think my firm has already had at least one round of interviews! They all get a huge number of applicants (1500 last year I think) for maybe 30 roles, so I can understand them closing the books early!
It used to be the case that firms took on non-rotational graduates which sit outside of the grad scheme, although I think that's less common now (certainly in the top firms). This might be useful to you as you'd get 'on the job' training and help with your APC, but the department which recruits you would expect you to stay on and not just be angling for a move to another area. In 2003, this is the route I took - but the markets, and surveying itself, were very different.
If you've got a strong CV, and some decent work experience on it (I'm amazed at the quality of CVs for surveying roles these days - I wouldn't get a job now!), then you've got a decent chance of finding something with a bit of legwork. You probably won't get anything in the top 3 firms, in one of the most sought after departments - but I'd be amazed if a 'foot in the door' wasn't possible. The big question you'd have to overcome is 'why didn't you apply through the graduate intake process'?
Hi OP.
I went out into the big bad world of QS at 26, 28 now, so please don't worry about your age. I joined a graduate scheme as part of a company with 25,000 employees in London.
It was good and the main benefit for APC was they obviously gave you all the time off you needed and I was literally getting thousands of pounds of training approved at a time. So it was good.
I'm sitting in May and made the decision to move to a firm of 50 employees in November. I haven't looked back and the pace of improvement is only increasing.
So my rather poorly formatted point is: don't get too hung up on grad schemes, and keep an eye out for smaller firms that will absolutely love a grad scheme quality candidate approaching them as an alternative.
And good luck! You shouldn't have trouble standing out; the CVs we receive for graduate positions are quite poor, as a matter of course.
I went out into the big bad world of QS at 26, 28 now, so please don't worry about your age. I joined a graduate scheme as part of a company with 25,000 employees in London.
It was good and the main benefit for APC was they obviously gave you all the time off you needed and I was literally getting thousands of pounds of training approved at a time. So it was good.
I'm sitting in May and made the decision to move to a firm of 50 employees in November. I haven't looked back and the pace of improvement is only increasing.
So my rather poorly formatted point is: don't get too hung up on grad schemes, and keep an eye out for smaller firms that will absolutely love a grad scheme quality candidate approaching them as an alternative.
And good luck! You shouldn't have trouble standing out; the CVs we receive for graduate positions are quite poor, as a matter of course.
You will be fine. I also missed the September intakes but still got a graduate position with a top 5 firm however it is not a rotational position but due to the work involved (insolvency) i touch on all the competencies.
You may be best speaking to HR at each of the firms saying if anybody drops out etc as the HR recruiters at said firm actually called me to apply for a job as i had been unsuccessful with a different role elsewhere in the firm.
Look on RICS recruit and propertyjobs there are plenty of graduate positions available and although not technically grad schemes, the vast majority will still be pushing you to complete or at least begin the APC process it just may prove a little more difficult if you cant get the rotations or variety of work required. Any q's feel free to drop me a pm.
You may be best speaking to HR at each of the firms saying if anybody drops out etc as the HR recruiters at said firm actually called me to apply for a job as i had been unsuccessful with a different role elsewhere in the firm.
Look on RICS recruit and propertyjobs there are plenty of graduate positions available and although not technically grad schemes, the vast majority will still be pushing you to complete or at least begin the APC process it just may prove a little more difficult if you cant get the rotations or variety of work required. Any q's feel free to drop me a pm.
We are not a asuveying firm , we are investor developers, but still take surveying grads and can do APC as most of us senior management are RICS.
The point I am making is that you dont need to look at surveying firms necessarily, and many firms like ours do not recruit grads through a grad scheme, we look at our needs and place ads, and we consider speculative applications too.
We are not a small company - Group turnover is over £2bn. There are other like us.
The point I am making is that you dont need to look at surveying firms necessarily, and many firms like ours do not recruit grads through a grad scheme, we look at our needs and place ads, and we consider speculative applications too.
We are not a small company - Group turnover is over £2bn. There are other like us.
It would be helpful to know what division you're going for but, as a rule of thumb, most decent sized practices want all the high quality grads that they can get. If you got a good 2:1 or first from somewhere credible, get on the phone to the grad programme administrators and start sweet-talking
It is not too late. Go too http://studentsurveyor.com and there is a job board on the site, with plenty of grad schemes still available.
Also it is not all about DTZ/CBRE/JLL and the ilk, nearly all major companies take property graduates from supermarkets to national rail and even Jaguar Land Rover are recruiting property grads.
edit: I remember last year, BNP Paribas and DTZ posted new opportunities later, so keep a look out.
Also it is not all about DTZ/CBRE/JLL and the ilk, nearly all major companies take property graduates from supermarkets to national rail and even Jaguar Land Rover are recruiting property grads.
edit: I remember last year, BNP Paribas and DTZ posted new opportunities later, so keep a look out.
Edited by oohcarfreind on Sunday 1st February 18:14
Use the above to have a look at schemes still available. If this doesn't work, keep ploughing away and get as much experience as you can. - Seriously don't see being 24 as a barrier - LOADS of guys on my graduate scheme at a big national were 24+ so don't get hung up on your age. 24 will be fine.
Those above have asked whether you know what bit of surveying you want to get into - if you have any idea that is great, but work experience will give you a much bigger indication of where your interests lie.
I have moved on to a smaller, niche firm. However, a do think an easier passage through the APC process is with a bigger firm, the tend to be more organised and you will have access to the wider spectrum of work - though starting as I did at the start of the recession all I ever did was valuation - though I now work in CPO.
If you are certain you want to wait for a big firm, I can really understand why. However, they key is to fill the intervening time with stuff which will help you, rather than just hanging around.
Best of luck
VM MRICS
Those above have asked whether you know what bit of surveying you want to get into - if you have any idea that is great, but work experience will give you a much bigger indication of where your interests lie.
I have moved on to a smaller, niche firm. However, a do think an easier passage through the APC process is with a bigger firm, the tend to be more organised and you will have access to the wider spectrum of work - though starting as I did at the start of the recession all I ever did was valuation - though I now work in CPO.
If you are certain you want to wait for a big firm, I can really understand why. However, they key is to fill the intervening time with stuff which will help you, rather than just hanging around.
Best of luck
VM MRICS
Edited by Vocal Minority on Tuesday 3rd February 21:26
Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to reply. Lots of great information given and most importantly of all it's incredibly reassuring.
In terms of specialisation, I have an inclination toward commercial property: both property management and landlord/tenant services, lease handling and the like. Investment consultancy also interests me and I will be looking to load up on my finance knowledge this summer. It has only been one year since I opted to take this career course though, so I don't have a true vision of what I'd prefer and am open minded toward different roles.
I think my next step may be to pick up some experience in the industry if no job is immediately forthcoming.
My work experience so far is solely from my own business in a different industry (biomass) but I feel the business/management skills are very transferable. I'm not going to be making an overt point of its success to any employer but I am effectively halving my earnings by going for a property grad job, that's how much it interests me.
I am open to firms of any size, nor do they have to be a property firm specifically. Trying to keep the horizon wide for the time being
In terms of specialisation, I have an inclination toward commercial property: both property management and landlord/tenant services, lease handling and the like. Investment consultancy also interests me and I will be looking to load up on my finance knowledge this summer. It has only been one year since I opted to take this career course though, so I don't have a true vision of what I'd prefer and am open minded toward different roles.
I think my next step may be to pick up some experience in the industry if no job is immediately forthcoming.
My work experience so far is solely from my own business in a different industry (biomass) but I feel the business/management skills are very transferable. I'm not going to be making an overt point of its success to any employer but I am effectively halving my earnings by going for a property grad job, that's how much it interests me.
I am open to firms of any size, nor do they have to be a property firm specifically. Trying to keep the horizon wide for the time being
Edited by Complex on Sunday 1st February 23:00
blueg33 said:
We are not a asuveying firm , we are investor developers, but still take surveying grads and can do APC as most of us senior management are RICS.
The point I am making is that you dont need to look at surveying firms necessarily, and many firms like ours do not recruit grads through a grad scheme, we look at our needs and place ads, and we consider speculative applications too.
We are not a small company - Group turnover is over £2bn. There are other like us.
+1 like the OP I did an MSc in Real Estate (mine was at Reading) and now work for one of the big Housebuilders and from what I can see I am having a better experience than friends who went to work at agencies, so definitely consider this route.The point I am making is that you dont need to look at surveying firms necessarily, and many firms like ours do not recruit grads through a grad scheme, we look at our needs and place ads, and we consider speculative applications too.
We are not a small company - Group turnover is over £2bn. There are other like us.
Jonstar said:
+1 like the OP I did an MSc in Real Estate (mine was at Reading) and now work for one of the big Housebuilders and from what I can see I am having a better experience than friends who went to work at agencies, so definitely consider this route.
Over the years I have employed a number of surveying grads as land managers, they get well paid and all of the ones I have employed have progressed well, and the ones from 10 years ago are now all directors with large housebuilders. (typical Land Director will be on £80-100k with up to 50% salary as bonus, a grad with 2 years experience will be on £50-65k, I have just taken on a grad with 3 years experience and am paying £75k). My grads get to learn alot about development appriasal, valuation, development technicals, planning, rents, funding, leases etc. They also have to work hard and be committed.
blueg33 said:
Over the years I have employed a number of surveying grads as land managers, they get well paid and all of the ones I have employed have progressed well, and the ones from 10 years ago are now all directors with large housebuilders. (typical Land Director will be on £80-100k with up to 50% salary as bonus, a grad with 2 years experience will be on £50-65k, I have just taken on a grad with 3 years experience and am paying £75k).
My grads get to learn alot about development appriasal, valuation, development technicals, planning, rents, funding, leases etc. They also have to work hard and be committed.
Yes, you could do a lot worse than land at a developer/housebuilder. It's a far more complex job than most people think though.My grads get to learn alot about development appriasal, valuation, development technicals, planning, rents, funding, leases etc. They also have to work hard and be committed.
Jonstar said:
Yes, you could do a lot worse than land at a developer/housebuilder. It's a far more complex job than most people think though.
More complex than the work that many surveyors do at the big surveying firms. On of my current Land Directors came to us at Director level from a well know large firm. He knew very little despite having spent many years selling development land. He has had a very steep learning curve.Vocal Minority said:
What sort of thing are you involved in blueg33?
Many years in housebuilding for big firms both volume and niche, now we do Primary Care buildings, supported living buildings, extracare, civil infrastructure eg Libraries, townalls, schools.My part of the business mostly does the care buildings and primary care eg community hospitals, large health centres. The suported living part alone does 40 developments pa
I'm in a similar position, although I graduated last year with a First in real estate. I took a year out to help my family in purchasing another c-store, but now I'v left myself in a difficult position. Iv not got any relevent work experience (apart from managing the family buy to let properties) whilst applying for grad schemes. I'm speculatively sending my CV to smaller firms in hope of getting something. I think I'm going to need to spend the rest of this year gaining relevant work experience then apply for 2016 intake.
Im not sure which area to go into either, I more inclined towards development and investment or facilities management even.
Im not sure which area to go into either, I more inclined towards development and investment or facilities management even.
Edited by olivebrown on Sunday 15th February 21:26
olivebrown said:
I'm in a similar position, although I graduated last year with a First in real estate. I took a year out to help my family in purchasing another c-store, but now I'v left myself in a difficult position. Iv not got any relevent work experience (apart from managing the family buy to let properties) whilst applying for grad schemes. I'm speculatively sending my CV to smaller firms in hope of getting something. I think I'm going to need to spend the rest of this year gaining relevant work experience then apply for 2016 intake.
Im not sure which area to go into either, I more inclined towards development and investment or facilities management even.
Land. Land. Land.Im not sure which area to go into either, I more inclined towards development and investment or facilities management even.
Edited by olivebrown on Sunday 15th February 21:26
If you are good you will earn a fortune.
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