Question for the Legal Eagles out there....
Discussion
My daughter, currently doing A levels, is considering doing a distance learning course instead of going to a proper university to get legal qualifications.
This is an example:
http://www.bpp.com/undergraduate-course-details/d/...
So my question is: is this a suitable route into the legal profession? Are these course respected by employers? Would she be better going to University (she's considering Southampton Uni)?
Would someone with qualifications from a course like this be as likely to get a job in the profession as someone that did a full degree course at a Uni?
Any advice would be helpful.
Many thanks
This is an example:
http://www.bpp.com/undergraduate-course-details/d/...
So my question is: is this a suitable route into the legal profession? Are these course respected by employers? Would she be better going to University (she's considering Southampton Uni)?
Would someone with qualifications from a course like this be as likely to get a job in the profession as someone that did a full degree course at a Uni?
Any advice would be helpful.
Many thanks
In my opinion...
It doesnt matter how she gets the LLB, the main thing (in order to get a good job) is the class of degree she comes out with. Sure, she'll miss out on the "normal" benefits of Uni (living away from home, making friends, getting drunk
) but I'm not sure if it's worth getting into £000s of debt.
If she wants a training contract she needs to be looking at a first or at least a 2:1. Getting a 2:2 probably means getting her foot in the door as a paralegal / fee-earner and paying for her own LPC.
It doesnt matter how she gets the LLB, the main thing (in order to get a good job) is the class of degree she comes out with. Sure, she'll miss out on the "normal" benefits of Uni (living away from home, making friends, getting drunk
) but I'm not sure if it's worth getting into £000s of debt.If she wants a training contract she needs to be looking at a first or at least a 2:1. Getting a 2:2 probably means getting her foot in the door as a paralegal / fee-earner and paying for her own LPC.
the BPP/UoL courses are not particularly well respected within the industry. Law, even city law, is v traditional.
In interview she will need to justify clearly why she didn't take the more traditional route. Its an additional issue that she won't need when she's looking for a training contract, which is competitive enough as it is
In interview she will need to justify clearly why she didn't take the more traditional route. Its an additional issue that she won't need when she's looking for a training contract, which is competitive enough as it is
Then I would suggest that either a top 10 Uni or OU could work. If she is a mature student then OU can be fine as a second career it is acceptable. IF she is not a mature student, then she would need a good reason why she didn't go to a top 10 Uni.
Sorry, but this is a harsh business.
Oh, and as above, is she bright enough to get a good 2:1? If not, she can be wasting her time (though I will say I know a chap with a 2:2 who got a local TC).
Sorry, but this is a harsh business.
Oh, and as above, is she bright enough to get a good 2:1? If not, she can be wasting her time (though I will say I know a chap with a 2:2 who got a local TC).
Jasandjules said:
Then I would suggest that either a top 10 Uni or OU could work. If she is a mature student then OU can be fine as a second career it is acceptable. IF she is not a mature student, then she would need a good reason why she didn't go to a top 10 Uni.
Sorry, but this is a harsh business.
Oh, and as above, is she bright enough to get a good 2:1? If not, she can be wasting her time (though I will say I know a chap with a 2:2 who got a local TC).
Thanks. Is she bright enough? I hope so. She's doing her first year A levels at the moment. Sorry, but this is a harsh business.
Oh, and as above, is she bright enough to get a good 2:1? If not, she can be wasting her time (though I will say I know a chap with a 2:2 who got a local TC).
Only gauge we have is GCSE, she got 7 A*s and 5 A's.
TTmonkey said:
Thanks. Is she bright enough? I hope so. She's doing her first year A levels at the moment.
Only gauge we have is GCSE, she got 7 A*s and 5 A's.
Sounds like she is then.Only gauge we have is GCSE, she got 7 A*s and 5 A's.
I would personally suggest (subject to what area she wishes to work in) undertaking an LLB as well rather than some other degree and a conversion.
I would also suggest that she asks about for week placements at local law firms or London law firms if that is her aim.
Hi JasAndJules,
Thanks for your help. I just created an account on here to reply to this forum directly (I'm the daughter in question), because, well, this seems to be the only forum so far to actually be willing to provide me with answers!
My plan for the future is to complete a UK law degree (qualifying LLB), and then emigrate to Australia to complete a GDL over there to qualify. This is due to the fact that the Australian Universities are often considered poor in the subject of law, would be £15k a year for foreign students, and I don't really fancy moving over there so soon.
I did consider qualifying over here, but as you've already said, it's rather competitive. It's still an option, though an unlikely one.
As BPP and UoL are private and as previously mentioned, not very well respected, would the Manchester Metropolitan 4-year LLB with distance learning be any good? It's qualifying, part-time, and also qualifies me for the CiLEX academic stage. From what I know it's more respected than the OU, too.
Sorry for all this information, but I thought I best explain everything first.
My real question is... Is it distance learning as whole which is not respected, or just the names of the Universities?
I'm not really fussed on the whole drinking and social life side, and as the programmes I'm looking at have the option of part-time, I'd be doing work experience and any useful work in my spare time, if I can.
Thanks, sorry for the long message!
Thanks for your help. I just created an account on here to reply to this forum directly (I'm the daughter in question), because, well, this seems to be the only forum so far to actually be willing to provide me with answers!
My plan for the future is to complete a UK law degree (qualifying LLB), and then emigrate to Australia to complete a GDL over there to qualify. This is due to the fact that the Australian Universities are often considered poor in the subject of law, would be £15k a year for foreign students, and I don't really fancy moving over there so soon.
I did consider qualifying over here, but as you've already said, it's rather competitive. It's still an option, though an unlikely one.
As BPP and UoL are private and as previously mentioned, not very well respected, would the Manchester Metropolitan 4-year LLB with distance learning be any good? It's qualifying, part-time, and also qualifies me for the CiLEX academic stage. From what I know it's more respected than the OU, too.
Sorry for all this information, but I thought I best explain everything first.
My real question is... Is it distance learning as whole which is not respected, or just the names of the Universities?
I'm not really fussed on the whole drinking and social life side, and as the programmes I'm looking at have the option of part-time, I'd be doing work experience and any useful work in my spare time, if I can.
Thanks, sorry for the long message!
Law is still one of those areas and careers where a top grade from a top university is going to give you the best chance.
I completed my law degree some 15 years ago from a non Russell group uni and struggled to even find a summer work placement let alone a sponsor for my LPC or training contract. I paid for my LPC myself but actually didn't complete it and went in a different direction.
If you don't want to drink at uni don't but don't decide not to go because you want to avoid drinking. You are doing yourself a disservice with that type of decision making. The best course at the best uni you can get into and as good a network as you can build is going to go along way. Don't handicap yourself at the beginning unnecessarily when you don't have to.
I completed my law degree some 15 years ago from a non Russell group uni and struggled to even find a summer work placement let alone a sponsor for my LPC or training contract. I paid for my LPC myself but actually didn't complete it and went in a different direction.
If you don't want to drink at uni don't but don't decide not to go because you want to avoid drinking. You are doing yourself a disservice with that type of decision making. The best course at the best uni you can get into and as good a network as you can build is going to go along way. Don't handicap yourself at the beginning unnecessarily when you don't have to.
Why not aim high and go for a top uni?
My wife went from a college in Grimsby with 5 A levels to Oxford and qualified with a training contract doing M&A at Allen & Overy.
Aim high now, you can always lower your sights later.
Law is a mega competitive area and the educational establishments on your CV really do count.
My wife went from a college in Grimsby with 5 A levels to Oxford and qualified with a training contract doing M&A at Allen & Overy.
Aim high now, you can always lower your sights later.
Law is a mega competitive area and the educational establishments on your CV really do count.
I've already checked out Oxford a few times. For many years it was a dream of mine to go there, but since college began I decided against it. I'd feel far more comfortable working at my own pace with a distance degree, which is the main reason I'm choosing it. On top of that, distance degrees usually cost half of normal degrees, and I'm not a fan of being lumbered with masses of debt before I even properly start my life. I'd like to start earning money, but apprenticeships look like they won't get me where I want to be in less than 7-10 years, so working part time during a degree would surely help.
It's also more financially viable for me to stay at home and commute, so that's what I'd prefer to do, among other reasons.
I understand that an Oxbridge degree would be of higher calibre and respect than a distance degree, but Oxbridge are a higher calibre than most universities, anyway.
I'd be happier doing a distance degree, but if it means that I will have little chance in any career then I suppose I won't do it. But really, is it respected equally to most Unis, or not?
It's also more financially viable for me to stay at home and commute, so that's what I'd prefer to do, among other reasons.
I understand that an Oxbridge degree would be of higher calibre and respect than a distance degree, but Oxbridge are a higher calibre than most universities, anyway.
I'd be happier doing a distance degree, but if it means that I will have little chance in any career then I suppose I won't do it. But really, is it respected equally to most Unis, or not?
If working at your own pace is a main driver then consider whether the long hours, pressure and client demands are going to reconcile with that.
Speaking as a hiring employer now, a distance degree carries a certain credibility if you are already career working and or juggling a family life. When you are pre working career then people will question your motivation and your rationale as has been done here. You will have to have a very good response that steers people away from them thinking you took this route as it is easier for you.
They will make a judgement on you before even speaking to you by reading your CV or cover letter. You often will not have a chance to respond. I feel you are putting yourself at an immediate disadvantage compared to other entrants. You don't have to go to Oxbridge, but a strong university with a good Law department will make a big difference. The ultimate ambition seems good but future employers will question why you did not push yourself now when you can with fewer commitments.
Speaking as a hiring employer now, a distance degree carries a certain credibility if you are already career working and or juggling a family life. When you are pre working career then people will question your motivation and your rationale as has been done here. You will have to have a very good response that steers people away from them thinking you took this route as it is easier for you.
They will make a judgement on you before even speaking to you by reading your CV or cover letter. You often will not have a chance to respond. I feel you are putting yourself at an immediate disadvantage compared to other entrants. You don't have to go to Oxbridge, but a strong university with a good Law department will make a big difference. The ultimate ambition seems good but future employers will question why you did not push yourself now when you can with fewer commitments.
I understand completely where you're coming from.
This is going to sound slightly ridiculous, but I like being able to work at my own pace because I often work far ahead of those surrounding me, even though I know that may change in University. I've been studying law for 4 years and know that the subject is for me.
Main problem? I don't want to be thinking about spending over £9k a year (plus a lot of other fees) on an experience I don't feel I would enjoy, such as mainstream University. I'd like to start earning money and have a bit of savings for my future after University, so I can at least have some sort of economic preparation for the next stage in my life - moving to Australia to start a future ASAP. I'll only be able to do this if I don't have to spend 2-3 hours a day commuting, which to me, seems like wasting time. It's different if you're travelling to get paid than travelling so far to literally put myself in debt. Gosh, it's such a negative way of thinking about it, but those are my main qualms with going down the traditional Uni path.
I need a degree to really get anywhere. If an apprenticeship would get me where I want to be, then I'd do it, and probably do a distance degree on the side to be able to say I actually have one. However, apprenticeships take longer and won't get me to the stage I want to be at, say, in 6-7 years time.
The truth? Even though I'm sure I'm the future it won't seem like it, 3 years and £30k seems like a very large investment for me to make in something that I don't think I'll enjoy, even if it is good for my future. I fancy a change, and distance learning seems like a semi-decent way to go.
The UK appears to be far more reserved and competitive about this career compared to Aus. In the end if I have to do a GDL in Aus to quality, I hope they'd accept me with a distance undergrad degree. After all, if I get the grades, a degree is a degree, especially as most of the AUS unis are not high in the world rankings, they're not meant to be that competitive. If I get a GDL from an Aussie uni, would the employer look to my undergrad or the training that matters?
Thanks for all your help everyone. Any other opinions would be greatly appreciated, just to see where distance degrees stand, and if they're disregarded immediately by legal professionals. In the end, rank 40 MMU distance degree, or rank 70 Winchester normal degree? It would certainly seem the distance degree would be more impressive.
Thanks again.
This is going to sound slightly ridiculous, but I like being able to work at my own pace because I often work far ahead of those surrounding me, even though I know that may change in University. I've been studying law for 4 years and know that the subject is for me.
Main problem? I don't want to be thinking about spending over £9k a year (plus a lot of other fees) on an experience I don't feel I would enjoy, such as mainstream University. I'd like to start earning money and have a bit of savings for my future after University, so I can at least have some sort of economic preparation for the next stage in my life - moving to Australia to start a future ASAP. I'll only be able to do this if I don't have to spend 2-3 hours a day commuting, which to me, seems like wasting time. It's different if you're travelling to get paid than travelling so far to literally put myself in debt. Gosh, it's such a negative way of thinking about it, but those are my main qualms with going down the traditional Uni path.
I need a degree to really get anywhere. If an apprenticeship would get me where I want to be, then I'd do it, and probably do a distance degree on the side to be able to say I actually have one. However, apprenticeships take longer and won't get me to the stage I want to be at, say, in 6-7 years time.
The truth? Even though I'm sure I'm the future it won't seem like it, 3 years and £30k seems like a very large investment for me to make in something that I don't think I'll enjoy, even if it is good for my future. I fancy a change, and distance learning seems like a semi-decent way to go.
The UK appears to be far more reserved and competitive about this career compared to Aus. In the end if I have to do a GDL in Aus to quality, I hope they'd accept me with a distance undergrad degree. After all, if I get the grades, a degree is a degree, especially as most of the AUS unis are not high in the world rankings, they're not meant to be that competitive. If I get a GDL from an Aussie uni, would the employer look to my undergrad or the training that matters?
Thanks for all your help everyone. Any other opinions would be greatly appreciated, just to see where distance degrees stand, and if they're disregarded immediately by legal professionals. In the end, rank 40 MMU distance degree, or rank 70 Winchester normal degree? It would certainly seem the distance degree would be more impressive.
Thanks again.
Slinkype said:
Main problem? I don't want to be thinking about spending over £9k a year (plus a lot of other fees) on an experience I don't feel I would enjoy, such as mainstream University. I'd like to start earning money and have a bit of savings for my future after University, so I can at least have some sort of economic preparation for the next stage in my life - moving to Australia to start a future ASAP. I'll only be able to do this if I don't have to spend 2-3 hours a day commuting, which to me, seems like wasting time. It's different if you're travelling to get paid than travelling so far to literally put myself in debt. Gosh, it's such a negative way of thinking about it, but those are my main qualms with going down the traditional Uni path.
The truth? Even though I'm sure I'm the future it won't seem like it, 3 years and £30k seems like a very large investment for me to make in something that I don't think I'll enjoy, even if it is good for my future. I fancy a change, and distance learning seems like a semi-decent way to go.
I cut that down a bit because it was pretty big, but I think that's about the gist of it.The truth? Even though I'm sure I'm the future it won't seem like it, 3 years and £30k seems like a very large investment for me to make in something that I don't think I'll enjoy, even if it is good for my future. I fancy a change, and distance learning seems like a semi-decent way to go.
£9k a year is a lot of money (I moaned about £1k a year! Imagine!) but you shouldn't look at it as debt, but more as a graduate tax. And trust me, with a decent education behind you, you'll pay that off very quickly indeed. I know it seems like a massive millstone but it's an investment in your future.
Going to a good non-distance university will put you into contact with hundreds of other legal students, all of who are at exactly the same stage in their career as you. That's vital for a career in the law. You'll also get regular interaction with your lecturers, qualified solicitors, the courts, judges, and the rest of the legal system.
From my (limited) experience of the profession (mostly on the wrong side of it, but that's another story), an awful lot of the job actually revolves around personal relationships, and there really isn't any way that distance learning will be able to provide that anywhere near as well as a traditional course.
That's before you even think about the fantastic experience that you can have at university outside of your degree. I was a terrible student, but I ended up learning much more outside of my course than I ever did while I was studying for it. The extra-curricular activities really do help to round out a CV.
If you go to a top school or university you will probably find that those around you are as capable or better than you. Don't take this the wrong way. I had the same GCSE grades as you in 1995 when A* was a new phenomenon. I was quite average in my class. You may find that the challenge and stimulation you get from other bright like minded people will push you on further. I'm comparatively out of touch with uni leagues but Winchester would not even have been on my radar when considering a law degree. Do have a good think about where your priorities are. Sometimes you have to make some sacrifices for the longer term.
Getting a degree, an LPC or a subsequent conversion course is the easy bit. Law firms very much do look at where you completed your studies. Unless you already have a foot in the door somewhere then there are going to be dozens of redbrick degree holders in the same queue as you and that is a tough position to be in when you are pitching for a training contract.
Getting a degree, an LPC or a subsequent conversion course is the easy bit. Law firms very much do look at where you completed your studies. Unless you already have a foot in the door somewhere then there are going to be dozens of redbrick degree holders in the same queue as you and that is a tough position to be in when you are pitching for a training contract.
I realise the replies might not be what you wanted to hear but I have to concur. Try not to build a string of logic in order to rationalise your decision (eg Australian unis aren't competitive therefore it shouldn't matter which uni I go to). Sometimes the world is not as logical, and people not as analytical, as you might think. At the beginning of your career there will be many many like you and you will be judged before you even set foot in the building to try to convince the hiring panel that you definitely could have gone to Oxbridge if only you'd wanted to. They probably have no clue how Winchester ranks compares to OU because neither will be setting any fires alight.
My advice is to go to the uni with the best brand that you can get into. You might think you know exactly the path you will be taking and many young women have a very clear idea but very often life throws you a curveball. For that reason I think it is a mistake to narrow your options unnecessarily, and certainly don't do that to save a measly 10, 20, 30 grand.
Don't worry about the money. The reason more people than ever are going to uni is because it is still worth it. Even better, you get to go to a uni with a great brand for the same cost as a mediocre one. It is an investment, and it will pay off. Don't be tempted by the "cheap version that's almost as good", the difference will seem minuscule in 10 years. For the same reason, don't bother getting a part time job either if it will slow you down - in ten years you will be laughing about how you cared about accumulating a measly few thousand pounds and having "debt" (that isn't even really debt).
On the other hand, bear in mind that In the land of Pistonheads, everybody wants to earn a million quid and buy a Lamborghini. If your goals are more modest then maybe you don't need to care so much about where you go. The question is, what if you regret it at 40 and wish you'd gone all out for the cash? Get it right early on and you give yourself options.
My advice is to go to the uni with the best brand that you can get into. You might think you know exactly the path you will be taking and many young women have a very clear idea but very often life throws you a curveball. For that reason I think it is a mistake to narrow your options unnecessarily, and certainly don't do that to save a measly 10, 20, 30 grand.
Don't worry about the money. The reason more people than ever are going to uni is because it is still worth it. Even better, you get to go to a uni with a great brand for the same cost as a mediocre one. It is an investment, and it will pay off. Don't be tempted by the "cheap version that's almost as good", the difference will seem minuscule in 10 years. For the same reason, don't bother getting a part time job either if it will slow you down - in ten years you will be laughing about how you cared about accumulating a measly few thousand pounds and having "debt" (that isn't even really debt).
On the other hand, bear in mind that In the land of Pistonheads, everybody wants to earn a million quid and buy a Lamborghini. If your goals are more modest then maybe you don't need to care so much about where you go. The question is, what if you regret it at 40 and wish you'd gone all out for the cash? Get it right early on and you give yourself options.
Edited by bogwoppit on Thursday 16th April 01:23
I'm afraid the attitude isn't a good one and the reasons for avoiding a good university aren't going to get you any traction at interviews for TCs.
Multiple A* students are literally ten a penny in subjects like law and good firms will not appreciate what looks like a fear of hard work, commitment and competition.
I appreciate that may sound harsh, however the reality is that it is a harsh industry.
Multiple A* students are literally ten a penny in subjects like law and good firms will not appreciate what looks like a fear of hard work, commitment and competition.
I appreciate that may sound harsh, however the reality is that it is a harsh industry.
I'd also like to get more experience in the industry in my spare time, whether it is paid or not.
And relating to the top 10 Unis point.
This would also rule out numerous Russel Group Unis, including Southampton, which is rated in the 20s for law. I currently do 2 separate programmes to help me meet people in the business and gain work experience, one of which is held through Southampton Uni, and would allow me entry into the Uni even if I did not obtain the grades I'm hoping for.
It looks like if I don't do distance learning I'll either go to Guildford UOL or Southampton because of their law link, and simple because they're a little more local and I like them.. However, they still aren't rated in the top 10. Does this mean the degree I could obtain from either of these would be little use also?
I would still be happier doing a distance degree because I feel such independent learning would be for me. My next stage is to get in contact with some Aussie unis to see what they think about it in response to the GDL I would need to convert over to Australian law.
Thanks for the help, even though it is indeed not as optimistic as I was hoping for!!
If there is anyone here who has completed a distance law degree (or any distance degree) or law firm employers, I would also like some firsthand accounts! (I'm presuming the previous commenters are not in such positions as they have not stayed so). Thanks again
And relating to the top 10 Unis point.
This would also rule out numerous Russel Group Unis, including Southampton, which is rated in the 20s for law. I currently do 2 separate programmes to help me meet people in the business and gain work experience, one of which is held through Southampton Uni, and would allow me entry into the Uni even if I did not obtain the grades I'm hoping for.
It looks like if I don't do distance learning I'll either go to Guildford UOL or Southampton because of their law link, and simple because they're a little more local and I like them.. However, they still aren't rated in the top 10. Does this mean the degree I could obtain from either of these would be little use also?
I would still be happier doing a distance degree because I feel such independent learning would be for me. My next stage is to get in contact with some Aussie unis to see what they think about it in response to the GDL I would need to convert over to Australian law.
Thanks for the help, even though it is indeed not as optimistic as I was hoping for!!
If there is anyone here who has completed a distance law degree (or any distance degree) or law firm employers, I would also like some firsthand accounts!
(I'm presuming the previous commenters are not in such positions as they have not stayed so). Thanks again Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff