Requested HR intervention regarding bullying but now...

[anonymous-user]

bhstewie said:

I think what people are trying to get at is what is the "bullying" behaviour here?

World of difference between "I want it done that way please and it doesn't matter who's right or wrong because I'm a director" vs. "Just fking do it you stupid little st" or something most people would consider inappropriate in most environments etc.

I'm struggling with this too. I see nothing specific that says 'bullying' to me.

[bigandclever]

Foliage said:

from how im reading it, he walked away, no refusal, re-approached the next day after tempers had calmed.

I read it as had an argument with the boss, refusing to do 'something', went almost immediately to HR and made an accusation of bullying against his boss(es) and is now surprised that he's in the middle of a st storm.

[Tensioner]

toasty said:

<snip>
Sounds like you played a losing hand and are now getting stroppy about it. Suck it up and apologise (even if you were right) or quit, you've nothing to gain here but more pain and anguish.

lol - not getting stroppy at all. I was just seeking advice on how to handle was has turned into a delicate situation.

bhstewie said:

I think what people are trying to get at is what is the "bullying" behaviour here?
<snip>

I'm finding it difficult to convey the situation - it's not exactly a 'he said' 'I said' scenario.

It's the way he expressed himself, and how he hadnled the situation.

I'm sorry I can't convey it any better.

[Gargamel]

A three figure sum !

I am not sure I would say no to a request if something cost less than a thousand pounds.

HR are there to protect the interests of the company, not the individuals as such. However if you can't articulate clearly why you felt the behaviour constitutes bullying, then I think you are in a tough spot.

You need to think carefully about whether you are able to adequately explain how a simple discussion on a project went from a theorectical debate on the correct way. To you, incorrectly challenging someone who felt they wanted it donw a certain way, and then on to how they bullied you.

If you aren't able, I suggest you explain that you felt you ad a great way to achieve the same result, you accept that in trying to challenge the request you overstepped, and that you are prepared to withdraw the complaint of bullying.

Clearly I am not in favour of work place bullying, but from your descriptions so far it is hard to say whether you are or aren't being bullied.

[SpeckledJim]

If he gave you the JFDI treatment, that's not bullying, it's just an old-fashioned way of being the boss.

Being rude to staff might not be the done thing any more, but that's not to say it's not allowed, or that he can't get away with it.

Maybe he was piqued that you saw a better way to do it than he did, and so felt embarrassed, so his ego decided to stamp on you. That's tough - he's the boss.

Or maybe he saw a problem with your way and didn't want to do it. He's still the boss.

But you aren't a slave - you can pick a new boss. But the new one might be even worse.

[bitchstewie]

Tensioner said:

bhstewie said:

I think what people are trying to get at is what is the "bullying" behaviour here?
<snip>

I'm finding it difficult to convey the situation - it's not exactly a 'he said' 'I said' scenario.

It's the way he expressed himself, and how he hadnled the situation.

I'm sorry I can't convey it any better.

That's fair enough, but if you can't convey it to us you may struggle to convey it to HR and of course it makes it difficult to suggest too much.

I'll re-iterate though that my perception and I think the general perception on here is that it sounds more like not liking being told what to do vs. bullying.

I think my point there is you need to articulate it an awful lot better to HR than you have to us if you continue down this route.

[DuraAce]

I've had strong disagreement over a 5 figure sum. I knew I was in the right and strongly put my case. I was overruled and told to just bloody do it the way I was told instead. I did, it went pear shaped. the bill for the cock up almost hit 6 figures.

At the end of the day I just had to do as I'm told as I don't own the firm or run the show.

Hard to see the bullying in this case, I guess you had to be in the situation so it's hard to empathise. Good luck with HR!

[Miguel Alvarez]

bhstewie said:

I think my point there is you need to articulate it an awful lot better to HR than you have to us if you continue down this route.

To add to this it could possibly be down to communication on your part. I fail to see why any boss wouldn't want to save money (kick backs aside) so if your way was truly better he should have jumped at the chance. Which then leaves it down to poor communication.

I say this because I'm reguarly guilty of this myself. Passion takes over some times and the message gets lost.

Either way good luck. Hope it resolves itself without any more grief.

[geeks]

http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1461

[Jasandjules]

OP this does not sound hugely like bullying to me. More like the company are asking you to do something. They are entitled to do so, absent any criminal or dangerous (health and safety) issues.

[beeej]

I think management pressure stinks, but it can happen, and as others have said HR are defending them not you.

You may need to eat humble pie or move on, as my Staff Handbook has this as one of the examples of Gross Misconduct:

Handbook said:

Refusal to carry out a management instruction which is within the individual’s capabilities and which would be seen to be in the interests of the Company

[Pesty]

HR are not there for you.

Especially against a director. Do you think they are some kind of independent arbiters or something?

A dispute with two equal level employees might result in you getting an apology. A complaint like this they are going to side with the head cheese.

[Grumfutock]

Sorry but where is the bullying?

Asked to do something you didn't want to do, you debated your case and lost, told by director to do it, you refused.

Body language and tone? Really?

I would suggest that, on the premise that you were not asked to do something illegal or unsafe, you are the one in the wrong for refusing to do the job.

I see no bullying here at all. Being told what to do does not constitute it, that's called life so grow a pair you poor little dear.

Edited by Grumfutock on Tuesday 19th May 09:58

[BJG1]

Tensioner said:

How about when you are trying to have a civil discussion, and the person concerned is repeating over and over again what they want and how they want it (at the same time treating me in a dismissive manner), and saying things like "xxxx agrees - he also thinks you should...." when xxxx is standing there passively (he's very passive and doesn't appear to have a lot of say).

That's probably not conveying the scenario very well, I guess you would have to have been there to see what I mean, with regard to body language and the tone taken etc.

I am not even a juniour staff member, and been told previouisly that I am held in high regard. Good performance reviews etc.

That doesn't sound like bullying at all. It sounds like you not getting your own way. If they are senior to you, they have every right to tell you to do something in a certain manner. You can disagree, but they can also be firm.

[hajaba123]

Bullying is awful and shouldn't happen.

This doesn't sound like bullying although there is lots of info missing.

What's your industry? What's your role? Are you just throwing your toys out of your cot?

[Tensioner]

I guess bullying is a subjective thing.

And sometimes you have to witness the situation to get a full grasp of it.

I know I'm on a road to a loser here, but I will go ahead with the hearing anyway.

Finally - this thread has drifted somewaht from the original topic - as the original topic was that I had made a formal request to HR to air a grievance about bullying, and then the next thing I know I have a disciplinary hearing.

The thread has morphed into deciding if I was bullied or not, rather than receiving any comment about the 'about turn' form HR regarding my complaint, which I thought was unorthodox.

In any case - I will report back on Thursday following my hearing, but I'm not holding my breath for a favourable (for me) outcome!

hajaba123 said:

Bullying is awful and shouldn't happen.

This doesn't sound like bullying although there is lots of info missing.

What's your industry? What's your role? Are you just throwing your toys out of your cot?

Industry is IT, role is 3rd line support (and more). Nope, not throwing my toys out of my cot, that's not my style.

Regarding any missing info - it's not in anybody's interest to provide a blow by blow account of events (at this stage anyway) - and as stated above - the thread did ultimately wander straight off topic almost immediately.

Given that the business is shrinking and not performing so well - perhaps this is just a suitable excuse to reduce the headcount.

Edited by Tensioner on Tuesday 19th May 10:40

[BJG1]

It's not really an about turn from HR, until you complained, everyone else was grown-up enough to just move on with it, your complaint has brought attention to the situation and it has been decided you were being insubordinate, which requires a disciplinary. My advice would be next time you decide not to do as you're asked by your employer, don't cry to HR about it.

[hajaba123]

Given that the business is shrinking and not performing so well - perhaps this is just a suitable excuse to reduce the headcount.

Edited by Tensioner on Tuesday 19th May 10:40

[/quote]

Good reference, pay off, CV, better job
Go for it!

[Grumfutock]

Tensioner said:

I guess bullying is a subjective thing.

And sometimes you have to witness the situation to get a full grasp of it.

I know I'm on a road to a loser here, but I will go ahead with the hearing anyway.

Finally - this thread has drifted somewaht from the original topic - as the original topic was that I had made a formal request to HR to air a grievance about bullying, and then the next thing I know I have a disciplinary hearing.

The thread has morphed into deciding if I was bullied or not, rather than receiving any comment about the 'about turn' form HR regarding my complaint, which I thought was unorthodox.

Edited by Tensioner on Tuesday 19th May 10:40

So to answer your original question I would guess the answer is:

You were not bullied and are facing a disciplinary as you refused an order by a superior. Fairly straight forward.

Edited by Grumfutock on Tuesday 19th May 12:23

[edc]

hajaba123 said:

Given that the business is shrinking and not performing so well - perhaps this is just a suitable excuse to reduce the headcount.

Edited by Tensioner on Tuesday 19th May 10:40

Good reference, pay off, CV, better job
Go for it!

Why would he get a pay-off?

Back to the OP, it's a shame this situation has escalated but it seems entirely avoidable. I am an HR person and without knowing all the facts it seems like you could apportion some element of blame to everyone involved so far. How things get dealt with can be heavily influenced by the culture of the organisation.

If it were me I would be informing your manager that there is a potential situation brewing up and mediate/facilitate an informal outcome.

As for grievances, you should read your company grievance policy. An HR person is not the ultimate arbiter of these situations, although, depending on the quality and capability of manager the HR person can heavily influence the decision. Grievances are normally investigated and subsequently closed by line/operational management. I can tell you that in the organisations that I have worked for, whilst there are some big ego directors and managers and informally some may have displayed to me some vindictiveness none have been able to exert so much influence and pressure that proper protocol goes out the window.

For what it is worth, I could probably have engineered a win-win situation, one where you get to voice your grievance whether formally or informally but also get your wrist slapped.

What your situation does highlight though is that you did not understand the rationale of the approach insisted upon. Whether the manager should explain is a moot point but sometimes no explanation is needed either because what has been said goes or there is a trust and understanding that they know better.

Culturally, it is a dangerous situation to be in where complaints or grievances whether founded or not are immediately flipped around. This goes against the recent corporate climate of victimisation and potential whistle-blowing.