One for the Legal bods - scummy company
Discussion
Nothing car related, however I am fuming and could do with a little advice. The wife has worked as a sales person at a radio/media company for the last 18 months. She has performed well, however as a company things haven't been going too great by all accounts. There have been a number of culling's, more than a few underhanded, including some people being offered payoff's to leave, others have been backed into a corner and the smart one's have left of their own accord or are currently looking.
My wife is currently looking, however it seems the tables have now turned on her. The management has been affected by the above, so she has recently been dealing with a new sales director - the loud mouthed, brash, lacking of any discernible people skills type. He has been on her case recently for trivial things and today during the sales meeting he went off on one at my wife in front of everybody - as in properly shouting at her. My wife doesn't take s
t from anybody but she was reduced to tears and other people at the meeting were in shock. Somebody stuck up for her and has called HR, however there is an incestuous relationship between HR and management and now both my wife and the Samaritan have been told they will be in a meeting with HR, the director and another scabby fkwit. Assuming the worst, this meeting will likely not be positive and I am fully expecting them to go down the road of her exiting the company.
My question is, what can be done here? Will be reading through her contract tonight but I am assuming it must state the disciplinary procedures? I am also assuming they must follow these procedures and cannot fire her without a prior disciplinary? Raising a grievance is largely pointless as HR consists of one person who is in the pocket of the exec's. On a legal side, can we get free representation or is this very much a case of cough up the dosh to get a good solicitor or just lump it? I really do not want to let these dirty fkers win as my wife may nag me to hell but she's actually decent at her job and doesn't deserve this....
Under 2 years service means she cant claim for unfair dismissal, but she can still claim for breach of contract or discrimination. What are the odds here?
My wife is currently looking, however it seems the tables have now turned on her. The management has been affected by the above, so she has recently been dealing with a new sales director - the loud mouthed, brash, lacking of any discernible people skills type. He has been on her case recently for trivial things and today during the sales meeting he went off on one at my wife in front of everybody - as in properly shouting at her. My wife doesn't take s
t from anybody but she was reduced to tears and other people at the meeting were in shock. Somebody stuck up for her and has called HR, however there is an incestuous relationship between HR and management and now both my wife and the Samaritan have been told they will be in a meeting with HR, the director and another scabby fkwit. Assuming the worst, this meeting will likely not be positive and I am fully expecting them to go down the road of her exiting the company.My question is, what can be done here? Will be reading through her contract tonight but I am assuming it must state the disciplinary procedures? I am also assuming they must follow these procedures and cannot fire her without a prior disciplinary? Raising a grievance is largely pointless as HR consists of one person who is in the pocket of the exec's. On a legal side, can we get free representation or is this very much a case of cough up the dosh to get a good solicitor or just lump it? I really do not want to let these dirty f
kers win as my wife may nag me to hell but she's actually decent at her job and doesn't deserve this....Under 2 years service means she cant claim for unfair dismissal, but she can still claim for breach of contract or discrimination. What are the odds here?
Sorry for the situation you and your wife find yourselves in. These things can be very stressful;
I think I would stop and think a bit then:
1) Stop fuming. You don't think straight when fuming. (I fume, it encourages you to make bad stubborn decisions)
2) What is right & just is not that important when you are probably going to lose anyway - don't let it affect cloud your judgement. Being right and dead matters not.
3) Think purely about what is best for your wife (and ultimately you).
Sounds like she would be much better off out of there and now it is only about getting the best out of it.
I would be focusing on a reference and a sharp exit, the rest of it won't matter once she is in a new role in a proper company.
Good Luck, go out for dinner, it's only a job and not a very nice one....
Bob
p.s. I know the above might sound a bit preachy but fuming and plotting won't change the inevitable outcome.
I think I would stop and think a bit then:
1) Stop fuming. You don't think straight when fuming. (I fume, it encourages you to make bad stubborn decisions)
2) What is right & just is not that important when you are probably going to lose anyway - don't let it affect cloud your judgement. Being right and dead matters not.
3) Think purely about what is best for your wife (and ultimately you).
Sounds like she would be much better off out of there and now it is only about getting the best out of it.
I would be focusing on a reference and a sharp exit, the rest of it won't matter once she is in a new role in a proper company.
Good Luck, go out for dinner, it's only a job and not a very nice one....
Bob
p.s. I know the above might sound a bit preachy but fuming and plotting won't change the inevitable outcome.
Has she complained as well?
She could lodge a formal grievance - is she scared of this person i.e. worried he might be aggressive? If yes she can demand HR deal with the matter immediately, and consider constructive dismissal (health and safety issue potentially).
How abusive was he?
She could lodge a formal grievance - is she scared of this person i.e. worried he might be aggressive? If yes she can demand HR deal with the matter immediately, and consider constructive dismissal (health and safety issue potentially).
How abusive was he?
Edited by Jasandjules on Tuesday 23 June 17:40
I've always found Acas really helpful:
http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1461
Acas helpline adviser on 0300 123 1100 (8am-8pm Monday to Friday and 9am-1pm Saturday).
http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1461
Acas helpline adviser on 0300 123 1100 (8am-8pm Monday to Friday and 9am-1pm Saturday).
So, she has been suspended..... The reason given is because she walked out of the sales meeting. She walked out because she felt threatened due to some smarmy cock jockey of a bully shouting in her face! They have tried to turn it into misconduct on her part! They've also tried to turn it around on her, saying she hasn't made enough appointments and trying to find random trivial things to bring up. She has raised a grievance regarding the incident, but HR consists of one person who would happily eat the CEOs st with a smile if requested, so it is largely pointless. It sounds like they are lining up constructive dismissal. I fail to believe that we don't have a leg to stand on, these s cannot get away with this!
t with a smile if requested, so it is largely pointless. It sounds like they are lining up constructive dismissal. I fail to believe that we don't have a leg to stand on, these s cannot get away with this! Sorry to hear about your wife's situation.
However, I would not make the mistake of thinking HR work for the employees: they are employed by the company, for the company.
They should be responsible for setting and implementing employment policies, but you are going to need 3rd party input here, ultimately an employment tribunal.
But as people have said: with under 2 years service the options are much reduced.
Ian
However, I would not make the mistake of thinking HR work for the employees: they are employed by the company, for the company.
They should be responsible for setting and implementing employment policies, but you are going to need 3rd party input here, ultimately an employment tribunal.
But as people have said: with under 2 years service the options are much reduced.
Ian
Sorry to hear about your wife's situation.
However, I would not make the mistake of thinking HR work for the employees: they are employed by the company, for the company.
They should be responsible for setting and implementing employment policies, but you are going to need 3rd party input here, ultimately an employment tribunal.
But as people have said: with under 2 years service the options are much reduced.
Ian
However, I would not make the mistake of thinking HR work for the employees: they are employed by the company, for the company.
They should be responsible for setting and implementing employment policies, but you are going to need 3rd party input here, ultimately an employment tribunal.
But as people have said: with under 2 years service the options are much reduced.
Ian
slow_poke said:
18 months? Oh well, tell her to start job hunting now. They could dismiss her without reason within 24 months.
Kind of. If that reason is related to a protected disclosure or discrimination then she has grounds. There is also a possibility (though perhaps more challenging) regarding a constructive dismissal event and claim, but this would need to be approached carefully.
I've been off the PH radar for a few months, but if things haven't changed then it might be worth waiting for BreadVan to comment or drop him a PM.
At the very least, he has always directed people on here towards a solicitor he rates.
I'm pretty sure the 24 month thing is not as cut and shut as people make out. You are still protected by employment law and you should use that to your advantage.
If this situation is pretty much how you describe, I would think you potentially have a case against them. Not 100% though and IANAL.
Speak to ACAS and see what the feedback is.
At the very least, he has always directed people on here towards a solicitor he rates.
I'm pretty sure the 24 month thing is not as cut and shut as people make out. You are still protected by employment law and you should use that to your advantage.
If this situation is pretty much how you describe, I would think you potentially have a case against them. Not 100% though and IANAL.
Speak to ACAS and see what the feedback is.
The Beaver King said:
I've been off the PH radar for a few months, but if things haven't changed then it might be worth waiting for BreadVan to comment or drop him a PM.
At the very least, he has always directed people on here towards a solicitor he rates.
I'm pretty sure the 24 month thing is not as cut and shut as people make out. You are still protected by employment law and you should use that to your advantage.
If this situation is pretty much how you describe, I would think you potentially have a case against them. Not 100% though and IANAL.
Speak to ACAS and see what the feedback is.
Maybe drop him a PM, BV has disappeared and more likely it was due to trolling him... BV might be under a different name now, but more likely has just given up on PH due to selfish few.At the very least, he has always directed people on here towards a solicitor he rates.
I'm pretty sure the 24 month thing is not as cut and shut as people make out. You are still protected by employment law and you should use that to your advantage.
If this situation is pretty much how you describe, I would think you potentially have a case against them. Not 100% though and IANAL.
Speak to ACAS and see what the feedback is.
Thanks for all of the comments, it's much appreciated. I'm actually surprised that there haven't been any jokes! Clearly only the sensible lot venture into this section haha....
To answer a couple of the questions:
We have contents insurance but not house/building insurance as we are currently renting until a decent property crops up
Yes, the complaint/grievance has been issued in writing with a full description of the incident and the effects of the incident - I helped my wife write it and tried to ensure opinions were left out and stuck to factual information.
She is already looking for a new job and has interviews lined up - she is worried that if they get rid of her she may struggle to find something, but am I right in saying that it is still illegal to give a bad reference and also most companies don't bother these days anyway whether good or bad terms?
I've spoken to Acas briefly, who were helpful however I think I need to have a second conversation with them with my wife present
She has been given a copy of the disciplinary procedure, which makes interesting reading. It clearly states they cannot sack an employee without prior disciplinary action ie. a formal warning. The exception is gross misconduct, which normally would in no way apply to this situation but I wonder how they can try and twist it.... It lists a breach of trust and confidence as gross misconduct, I wonder if they will try to make out that her walking out violated this.... On the flip side though, we could potentially use the same breach as a claim. If we can argue a breach of trust and confidence then they have breached their contract.
To answer a couple of the questions:
We have contents insurance but not house/building insurance as we are currently renting until a decent property crops up
Yes, the complaint/grievance has been issued in writing with a full description of the incident and the effects of the incident - I helped my wife write it and tried to ensure opinions were left out and stuck to factual information.
She is already looking for a new job and has interviews lined up - she is worried that if they get rid of her she may struggle to find something, but am I right in saying that it is still illegal to give a bad reference and also most companies don't bother these days anyway whether good or bad terms?
I've spoken to Acas briefly, who were helpful however I think I need to have a second conversation with them with my wife present
She has been given a copy of the disciplinary procedure, which makes interesting reading. It clearly states they cannot sack an employee without prior disciplinary action ie. a formal warning. The exception is gross misconduct, which normally would in no way apply to this situation but I wonder how they can try and twist it.... It lists a breach of trust and confidence as gross misconduct, I wonder if they will try to make out that her walking out violated this.... On the flip side though, we could potentially use the same breach as a claim. If we can argue a breach of trust and confidence then they have breached their contract.
Hi,
I've been in the industry for 23 years. Seen it all. Great people leave because of other idiots. From what I've seen you can be great at your job and very talented but if your face doesn't fit well you're fubared. This only tends to be the way in the smaller groups.
Is this a large radio group? There are really only 3 big radio companies left in the UK.
I'd be interested to know who the company is, PM me or reply with the first letter of the group name.
I can then tell you if i've worked for them, or have friends who do/did. and possibly give advice.
Good luck
I've been in the industry for 23 years. Seen it all. Great people leave because of other idiots. From what I've seen you can be great at your job and very talented but if your face doesn't fit well you're fubared. This only tends to be the way in the smaller groups.
Is this a large radio group? There are really only 3 big radio companies left in the UK.
I'd be interested to know who the company is, PM me or reply with the first letter of the group name.
I can then tell you if i've worked for them, or have friends who do/did. and possibly give advice.
Good luck
Edited by 528Sport on Thursday 25th June 10:58
Doodlebug87 said:
She is already looking for a new job and has interviews lined up - she is worried that if they get rid of her she may struggle to find something, but am I right in saying that it is still illegal to give a bad reference and also most companies don't bother these days anyway whether good or bad terms?
Employment is not my field but the one thing I would say is that it is possible to be sued if you give a 'bad' reference but quite how far the line goes between a bad one based on 100% fact and a bad one based on opinion is a question I do not have an answer to.On the few occasions that I have been asked to give one I have stuck rigidly to dates and not expressed any opinion unless favourable.
Of course that isn't to say that there aren't people who are still able to pick up the 'phone for an off the record conversation. The more incestuous your area of work, the more likely it is that written references will only be for HR, the real ones will be a telephone call or face to face conversation.
Nothing's going to happen, your wife will move on and find something else and you'll be less angry in a few days.
Because she's been there under 2 years, the company can find any reason they want to get her out of the door, they dont need to back it up, and it's not worth fighting for because there wont be a job at the end of it, things wont go back to how they were. Looking for new employment, who wants to go into a new job with a tribunal hanging over them? Who's going to take on someone who's mid way through taking their old place to court? The money you'd get, if any will take forever to come through, likely there'd be a settlement of a couple of months wages.
The SD and HR work for the company, and they'll say black is white if that's the company line against your wife.
It's st, it is personal, it's hard to see your O/H being bullied but taking a mid to long term view of it, it's better to call them s, walk away and do something more productive. The reference doesnt matter, it's not that long ago she'd have been working somewhere else and they could be the first referee
Because she's been there under 2 years, the company can find any reason they want to get her out of the door, they dont need to back it up, and it's not worth fighting for because there wont be a job at the end of it, things wont go back to how they were. Looking for new employment, who wants to go into a new job with a tribunal hanging over them? Who's going to take on someone who's mid way through taking their old place to court? The money you'd get, if any will take forever to come through, likely there'd be a settlement of a couple of months wages.
The SD and HR work for the company, and they'll say black is white if that's the company line against your wife.
It's s
t, it is personal, it's hard to see your O/H being bullied but taking a mid to long term view of it, it's better to call them s, walk away and do something more productive. The reference doesnt matter, it's not that long ago she'd have been working somewhere else and they could be the first refereeDoodlebug87 said:
am I right in saying that it is still illegal to give a bad reference and also most companies don't bother these days anyway whether good or bad terms?
No. A bad reference may be given, as long as it is accurate i.e. MR Y was dismissed for Gross Misconduct because he physically attacked Mr Z with a knife (yes, that was a case I had to look at - chefs eh!)..... However most references are standard i.e. Mrs Doodlebug was employed from X to Y date as a Job Title.....
Update - received a letter through today, stating she will have a disciplinary meeting in a weeks time. The letter gives the reason for the disciplinary as "misconduct", citing that she walked out of the sales meeting. Removing emotion from the equation (and there is a lot, fking dirty bds!), they have omitted two key statements, essentially cherry picking them, one of which the girl in question burst into tears about the whole thing when they questioned her.... funnily, the sales directors statement is rife with fabrication and embellishment. I genuinely believe she has a case for breach of contract along the lines of loss of trust and confidence but we will be getting legal advice. The statements they have included contain contradictions so I wonder if there is a slant there... not going to chase shadows but if there's a case then we will have the idiots.
king dirty bds!), they have omitted two key statements, essentially cherry picking them, one of which the girl in question burst into tears about the whole thing when they questioned her.... funnily, the sales directors statement is rife with fabrication and embellishment. I genuinely believe she has a case for breach of contract along the lines of loss of trust and confidence but we will be getting legal advice. The statements they have included contain contradictions so I wonder if there is a slant there... not going to chase shadows but if there's a case then we will have the idiots.Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff