One for the Legal bods - scummy company

[technodup]

swerni said:

You may well " have the idiots" and get a few quid.
is your wife intending on staying in the industry in the same role?
If so I'd strongly suggest she reach a compromise which includes good reference and a few quid and move on.

You seem far to emotional to be giving her constructive advise.
is it safe to assume you don't work on sales?

This. Have them for what? A few quid and a stload of hassle and time?

I've been there myself, it took months and I settled pre-tribunal as I didn't fancy being called a liar for three days straight and possibly end with nothing.

Sales is a tough gig but a rewarding one. Sales people (should) pay for themselves and make money for the business. If she's any good (and I realise that maybe sounds antagonistic- not intended) she'll be better off somewhere else quickly and with a minimum of fuss.

And remember what goes around comes around. If they're as bad as you say they'll get their comeuppance from someone at some point. They (almost) always do.

Emotions are obviously running high but I don't think it's a fight worth fighting. Move onwards and upwards.

[Jasandjules]

Have you asked them for copies of witness statements?

You say a week - is that at least seven days from the date of the letter?

Has she lodged a formal grievance alleging bullying?

[Terminator X]

Doodlebug87 said:

Under 2 years service means she cant claim for unfair dismissal, but she can still claim for breach of contract or discrimination. What are the odds here?

Not a hope in hell imho. Get out, don't look back.

TX.

[Jasandjules]

Terminator X said:

Not a hope in hell imho. Get out, don't look back.

TX.

It will be difficult, absent clarification as I requested above. However, if events transpired as written and as anticipated, it is quite possible to claim.

[Jasandjules]

swerni said:

And a torpedo to the career.

Yes, that is quite a possibility. IF it becomes public knowledge, but that's what compromise agreements can resolve...

[Sheepshanks]

Doodlebug87 said:

... not going to chase shadows but if there's a case then we will have the idiots.

You might want to do that but your missus will just want to drop it an move on. Women don't like hassle.

[andy-xr]

Doodlebug87 said:

Update - received a letter through today, stating she will have a disciplinary meeting in a weeks time. The letter gives the reason for the disciplinary as "misconduct", citing that she walked out of the sales meeting. Removing emotion from the equation (and there is a lot, fking dirty bds!), they have omitted two key statements, essentially cherry picking them, one of which the girl in question burst into tears about the whole thing when they questioned her.... funnily, the sales directors statement is rife with fabrication and embellishment. I genuinely believe she has a case for breach of contract along the lines of loss of trust and confidence but we will be getting legal advice. The statements they have included contain contradictions so I wonder if there is a slant there... not going to chase shadows but if there's a case then we will have the idiots.

There's very little 'legal' in any of what they state or write down that can be used against them, these are their processes that they can decide whether to follow or not, and not following them doesnt open them up to anything other than you/your wife shouting at them waving paper around. It wont stand up to scrutiny and no-one at the company will stand up for her.

There wont be a breach of contract claim that anyone will take (your wife needs to be pregnant, black, asian or other minority, and be able to demonstrate some kind of unfairness other than being shouted at). Sorry - this one's a smash n dash for you and yours, get what you can quickly, spend time looking for another job and move on as fast as possible

[Doodlebug87]

Cheers for the further comments, it does seem a bit bleak I must admit. I think the most infuriating thing is that they can effectively do what they want, they really are a bunch of clueless fking hobbits. Having thought things through and looking at funds, we are thinking it may be best for my wife to hand in her notice before the disciplinary. Can they still enforce the meeting at this point? She's still got a couple of interviews lined up and will continue looking in the meantime, I just think it's better for her sanity if she makes the first move and gets it over and done with. Can they still fire / discipline her after she's resigned?

[The Beaver King]

Doodlebug87 said:

Can they still enforce the meeting at this point? She's still got a couple of interviews lined up and will continue looking in the meantime, I just think it's better for her sanity if she makes the first move and gets it over and done with. Can they still fire / discipline her after she's resigned?

No, if she walks then that should be the end of it.

Doodlebug87 said:

Cheers for the further comments, it does seem a bit bleak I must admit. I think the most infuriating thing is that they can effectively do what they want, they really are a bunch of clueless fking hobbits. Having thought things through and looking at funds, we are thinking it may be best for my wife to hand in her notice before the disciplinary.

In the end, it's a decision that you guys need to make in your own best interest. That said, if your previous comments are accurate, I would be out for blood.

You've stated that you have spoken to ACAS; have you thought about an initial consultation with a solicitor for them to review it and provide advice? Some does this for free.

Please keep us updated. I'd stress again that now BreadVan has reappeared, it may be worth dropping him a PM. He is very knowledgeable and has been know to provide a bit of free advice for people on here.

[andy-xr]

I would wait for the meeting, take whatever st gets slung and see if there's an offer to walk with a bundle of money (however big or small) if she goes straight away. Upside; gardening leave + PILON + time to look for interviews vs working notice, no PILON, having to deal with them for longer

[Doodlebug87]

andy-xr said:

I would wait for the meeting, take whatever st gets slung and see if there's an offer to walk with a bundle of money (however big or small) if she goes straight away. Upside; gardening leave + PILON + time to look for interviews vs working notice, no PILON, having to deal with them for longer

But what if they sack her on the spot? If the disciplinary procedure isn't actually within her contract then the handbook / guide is not legally enforceable, which means they can sack her if they really want to. The letter also states that it may result in her dismissal. We were pondering whether she should call the CEO / HR knobber and offer resignation if they agree to not go ahead with the disciplinary. This is the most stressful situation I've been in for a while, and that includes a house move falling through at the last minute and crashing my previous car into a ravine WRC style..... She is mainly worried about the reference more than anything, ie it will make it difficult to find a new job.

[Jasandjules]

Doodlebug87 said:

Cheers for the further comments, it does seem a bit bleak I must admit. I think the most infuriating thing is that they can effectively do what they want, they really are a bunch of clueless fking hobbits.

There are a few options available to you, thought they are limited. Do you have house insurance? Does it have legal cover?

[andy-xr]

Doodlebug87 said:

But what if they sack her on the spot? If the disciplinary procedure isn't actually within her contract then the handbook / guide is not legally enforceable, which means they can sack her if they really want to. The letter also states that it may result in her dismissal. We were pondering whether she should call the CEO / HR knobber and offer resignation if they agree to not go ahead with the disciplinary. This is the most stressful situation I've been in for a while, and that includes a house move falling through at the last minute and crashing my previous car into a ravine WRC style..... She is mainly worried about the reference more than anything, ie it will make it difficult to find a new job.

Let's be honest, it sounds like she's going anyway and they'll make up any old st, so what difference does it matter if she's sacked on the spot? It'll be a months notice paid up without having to work it.

Legally enforceable....you're looking at it the wrong way. This isnt a contract problem that can be held up to anyone, there's no obvious discrimination, nothing will ever get to a tribunal or outside the company

If they try and 'encourage' her to leave, it could be up to 3 months pay to walk now, that's what I'd be looking for.

I wouldnt give this company as a reference, it doesnt sound like they want to give one either, or if they do it wont be worth anything to anyone. I got a bad reference from an old employer, the ones taking me on called me up and said it stuck out like a sore thumb, had I had a problem with the old place, and could I provide another company instead so they could tick their boxes on having 4 referees. They didnt care about the bad reference, they cared about ticking the boxes to say they'd done what they needed to.

If she absolutely must have a reference from them, negotiate it as part of leaving either through a compromise agreement (which needs the company to pay a lawyer a couple of hundred quid) or do the negotiations herself but dont sign anything other than 'I'm leaving now, I've got everything, this is my last day' because she may have a claim against them in future (working conditions, harassment, whatever). Basically dont sign away the right to a future claim unless they give her a stload of money and a lawyer looks over the agreement. The company must pay for a lawyer, but I dont think it'll get this far.

Edited by andy-xr on Wednesday 1st July 12:32

[Jasandjules]

andy-xr said:

Let's be honest, it sounds like she's going anyway and they'll make up any old st, so what difference does it matter if she's sacked on the spot? It'll be a months notice paid up without having to work it.

A dismissal for Gross Misconduct can have ramifications for future employment and could be included in a reference...

I've been to Tribunal purely to remove one from a file, as it was preventing my client from getting the job he wanted.

[The Beaver King]

Most companies really do not want the hassle of a tribunal or any kind of court action.

It's a bit naughty, but she could attend the hearing and when providing her own comments drop in the words 'stressful situation' or 'undue stress'. If the HR rep is any good, they'll pick this up straight away and might start playing ball.

I've seen it done a few times and it gets results. It is underhand though and not something to do lightly.

Other than that, I would fight it. If you roll over, you'll be at their mercy. If you put up a fight, there is a good chance they will pay up (if they really want your wife gone) or they'll back off. If the latter, your wife may want to consider moving anyway; they could just sit and wait for your wife to fk up or make her working life unbearable.

Good luck

[andy-xr]

Jasandjules said:

A dismissal for Gross Misconduct can have ramifications for future employment and could be included in a reference...

I've been to Tribunal purely to remove one from a file, as it was preventing my client from getting the job he wanted.

She cried in a sales meeting and went to the bogs to clean up. Anyone you explain that to is going to look at it, look at any potential 'gross misconduct, we fired her' and start laughing. If I was the OPs Mrs, I'd put it as bluntly and as pass-off'ish as that in the meeting, because it makes the whole process look stupid. It is stupid, it's a straw grasper being used as a lead into something else, which sounds like a parting of company

Companies take sales people on because they bring in money, everyone falls out with a boss at some time or other, and I've never found it mattered when it came to references

[Super Slo Mo]

andy-xr said:

Let's be honest, it sounds like she's going anyway and they'll make up any old st, so what difference does it matter if she's sacked on the spot? It'll be a months notice paid up without having to work it.

Are you sure about that? I understand that if you're fired, you're paid up until that day and no more. There's no month's notice period. Could well be wrong of course, but there's no obligation to give notice in the case that an employee is sacked.

[Doodlebug87]

Jasandjules said:

A dismissal for Gross Misconduct can have ramifications for future employment and could be included in a reference...

I've been to Tribunal purely to remove one from a file, as it was preventing my client from getting the job he wanted.

In this case though they are citing Misconduct as opposed to Gross Misconduct. It would seem barmy to sack somebody for walking out of a sales meeting, but they can get away with it and I won't put it past them. It seems the consensus is to attend the hearing and see what comes of it. My wife will have great references from her previous employers, but if she doesn't provide a reference from this company surely it will look suspect? There's no clear answer here and it seems to boil down to whether they will sack her for fun or just issue a written warning. Knowing their recent history, there's a good chance it will be the former

I know how st I'm feeling about the whole situation and she is taking it a lot worse than me, which is saying something - I'm worried about her to be honest.....

[The Beaver King]

Doodlebug87 said:

In this case though they are citing Misconduct as opposed to Gross Misconduct. It would seem barmy to sack somebody for walking out of a sales meeting, but they can get away with it and I won't put it past them. It seems the consensus is to attend the hearing and see what comes of it. My wife will have great references from her previous employers, but if she doesn't provide a reference from this company surely it will look suspect? There's no clear answer here and it seems to boil down to whether they will sack her for fun or just issue a written warning. Knowing their recent history, there's a good chance it will be the former

I know how st I'm feeling about the whole situation and she is taking it a lot worse than me, which is saying something - I'm worried about her to be honest.....

They can't sack her for 'fun' and if you think they are taking some half-arsed approach to pushing her out, then any solicitor worth their salt will be able to pull them apart and pin them to the wall.

It's a stressful situation, granted; but let them do what they are going to do and hope they fk it up by cutting corners. Once they've done this (and you seem pretty convinced they're likely to), then take it legal and screw them for everything they are worth.

If your Mrs is blame free, then fight it. Sitting back and letting them roll with the punches is madness. If it was my OH, I'd be angry and doing everything I could to hit them where it hurts.

[Jasandjules]

Does the letter inviting to a meeting state that a potential outcome is dismissal?
Does it mention Gross Misconduct at any point?