Unpaid leave rejected

[Countdown]

berlintaxi said:

Countdown said:

Thirdly (given that he doesn't normally travel on business) does the fact that he gets to spend 3 weeks in China not partially compensate for the extra PITA of being away from home?

Yeah, 'cause sitting in hotel rooms on your own miles from home and family is really great fun.

If that's the case then either
(a) tell your boss you don't want to go; or
(b) negotiate appropriate compensation

To some people a trip to China would be a nice change. (For some of my team a trip to Slough would be a nice change!!)

[berlintaxi]

Countdown said:

berlintaxi said:

Countdown said:

Thirdly (given that he doesn't normally travel on business) does the fact that he gets to spend 3 weeks in China not partially compensate for the extra PITA of being away from home?

Yeah, 'cause sitting in hotel rooms on your own miles from home and family is really great fun.

If that's the case then either
(a) tell your boss you don't want to go; or
(b) negotiate appropriate compensation

To some people a trip to China would be a nice change. (For some of my team a trip to Slough would be a nice change!!)

Maybe I am just jaded but after many years of business travel but the last thing I would want is 3 weeks in China. To people who don't travel on business it sounds great, but they will be home on a day off with their families whilst I am queuing for a flight at 6am on Bank holiday Monday.

[randlemarcus]

If the poor bloke doesn't normally travel at all, it probably sounded quite exciting, especially when it was linked in his head with showing willing for China equalling the firm being equally flexible about three and a half days off later in the year.

Those who travel lots would have been significantly more wary of something that will probably cost him at least three weekends, with travel and travelshock. Nobody who is office based would even dream of asking for a monetary uplift, over expenses, and probably wouldn't think about per diems, those being enormously frowned upon by HMRC.

Bottom line is, he got shafted, with no hope of recovery now, without burning quite large bridges. I suspect the net result will be either acquiescence and further exploitation, or a very uncomfortable conversation the next time he is asked to nip to Waitrose to top up the tea supplies

[schmunk]

randlemarcus said:

wouldn't think about per diems, those being enormously frowned upon by HMRC.

That's not true at all:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/eimanual/EIM05250.h...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/scale-r...

Up to room cost + CNY 605 (£60) per day can be paid (technically "reimbursed", but it can be unreceipted) tax-free for travel to Chinese cities, on top of the regular £10 per night "personal and incidental expenses" for overnight overseas travel. N.B. the figure is not quite so simple as this, there are of course complications to the rules...

Edited by schmunk on Wednesday 26th August 09:41

[Countdown]

berlintaxi said:

Maybe I am just jaded but after many years of business travel but the last thing I would want is 3 weeks in China. To people who don't travel on business it sounds great, but they will be home on a day off with their families whilst I am queuing for a flight at 6am on Bank holiday Monday.

Completely undertand where you're coming from. Just to give an example of the other side of the coin - one of my team has transferred from being a Purchase Ledger Assistant to a Mgmt Accounts role because she now gets to spend 1-2 days a month in London/Newcastle/Bristol/Birmingham. That is going to be the highlight of her month To people who travel regularly this would be mundane and repetitive but (because she's new) the travel is a big attraction of the job for her.

Horses for courses

[randlemarcus]

schmunk said:

randlemarcus said:

wouldn't think about per diems, those being enormously frowned upon by HMRC.

That's not true at all:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/eimanual/EIM05250.h...

[url]https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/scale-rate-expenses-payments-employee-travelling-outside-the-uk
[/url]

Up to room cost + CNY 605 (£60) per day can be paid (technically "reimbursed", but it can be unreceipted) tax-free for travel to Chinese cities, on top of the regular £10 per night "personal and incidental expenses" for overnight overseas travel. N.B. the figure is not quite so simple as this, there are of course complications to the rules...

And such publications are the first port of call for UK based employees who don't travel, are they? Your corporate Expenses policy probably wont mention per diems, or if it does, you'll be told that those are not for you, you just get to claim back receipted spend, thankyou very much. HMRC are not fans in any way, shape or form of per diems, and they would like that UK people simply don't have them - they offer an opportunity for an employee to gain from business travel, and that gets sticky quite fast. Experience: multiple large SIs who refuse to abide by HMRC "policy" or even close. When pressed, most will refer back to HMRC having a very gimlet eye for any claim that says "per diem" or "allowance". Obviously the Honourable Member animals are more equal than others.

[NDA]

sc0tt said:

An employee of ten years service wished to take 3.5 days of unpaid after using the majority of their holiday in February to take a 2 week break in September.

Said employee is going to china on Business for 3 weeks for no additional re numeration in October giving up their weekends for this trip.

Employee has had this request rejected due to the company manual stating this is not special circumstances.

What would be your views on this?

Assuming he's a valuable and well regarded member of the team, I'd give him the additional holiday - paid too. 3 weeks in China is nobody's idea of fun - the fact the company are sending him there obviously means he's moderately important to the business.

[Sheepshanks]

Countdown said:

Seems a bit silly or counterproductive for the company. However, OTOH, and playing devil's advocate - if the company doesn't normally give TOIL for people on business travel then it wouldn't want to make an exception for one person.

I'm not really sure what the point of this thread is - of course it seems unreasonable to any normal person, but in my experience if firms have rules then they become terrified of creating exceptions.

When I worked in a medium sized corporation, I agreed to my admin taking an extra day's holiday. HR went absolutely bonkers saying that everyone would find out and it would cause massive problems.

[JB!]

This need a sensible discussion, and example of how this works for me:

Monday work 0900:1900 - 10hrs
Tues 08:30-16:30 - 7hrs (1hr break)
Weds 08:30 - 20:30 - 12hrs
Thurs
Fri Annual Leave 7hrs

I am on a 35hr week, so already on 34hrs before turning up for work on Thursday.

I'll do 830-1630 Thurs, and claim the 6hrs back as lieu time the following friday, or cancel my annual leave, work an extra hour Thurs and use lieu time for annual leave on the friday.

All I do is explain what i'm doing to my LM and block it off on my diary. Where have these hours come from? Travel to another location. I'm paid to work at a desk in X, if you send me to Y I want paying for my time, and expenses, in return I work my lieu time around everyone else and travel at short notice.

It works for us.

[creampuff]

randlemarcus said:

And such publications are the first port of call for UK based employees who don't travel, are they? Your corporate Expenses policy probably wont mention per diems, or if it does, you'll be told that those are not for you, you just get to claim back receipted spend, thankyou very much. HMRC are not fans in any way, shape or form of per diems, and they would like that UK people simply don't have them - they offer an opportunity for an employee to gain from business travel, and that gets sticky quite fast. Experience: multiple large SIs who refuse to abide by HMRC "policy" or even close. When pressed, most will refer back to HMRC having a very gimlet eye for any claim that says "per diem" or "allowance". Obviously the Honourable Member animals are more equal than others.

For practical purposes, I like per diems because if I'm on expenses I claim every single thing right down to a can of coke if I'm walking around and feel like a drink. Consequently, it takes a long time to do the expense claim and it is boring as fk while I am doing it.

The £60 or whatever it is for hotels not enough for anything other than a provincial Chinese city.

[schmunk]

creampuff said:

The £60 or whatever it is for hotels not enough for anything other than a provincial Chinese city.

The allowable reimbursement is the cost of the hotel + £60 per full day in China (the cash element is reduced if it's a serviced apartment, but that's too much detail for this thread).

[creampuff]

schmunk said:

The allowable reimbursement is the cost of the hotel + £60 per full day in China (the cash element is reduced if it's a serviced apartment, but that's too much detail for this thread).

If you get room service, is the allowable reimbursement the room only hotel rate and the room service comes off the £60 or is the room service (assuming on same invoice) lumped with the room rate and you can get £60 on top of that?

[creampuff]

Sheepshanks said:

I'm not really sure what the point of this thread is - of course it seems unreasonable to any normal person, but in my experience if firms have rules then they become terrified of creating exceptions.

When I worked in a medium sized corporation, I agreed to my admin taking an extra day's holiday. HR went absolutely bonkers saying that everyone would find out and it would cause massive problems.

If they won't give TOIL for weekend travel.... then the solution is to say that you should be flying out on the Monday around lunchtime (which would mean you leave your house for the airport about the time you would normally go to work) and whatever it is in China will have to wait until Wednesday, since a Mon lunch departure will mean a Tue morning arrival, so you will be wanting to go to the hotel and take a nap all day on Tuesday.

Expecting the employee to eat the loss of two weekends is taking the piss.

Personally when I've had to be somewhere on a Monday, I've been paid up to 12 hours a day travel time, so I'm happy to leave on the weekend. This has most recently be in the glory days of $100+ oil, so I accept that this may be tricky in other industries.

[Sheepshanks]

creampuff said:

This has most recently be in the glory days of $100+ oil, so I accept that this may be tricky in other industries.

Yes - I have a neighbour who used to work for Shell and his expenses and allowances were amazing.

I don't get any kind of daily allowance, but it's accepted practice that absolutely everything we spend while travelling can be claimed back plus a couple of hundred quid as 'incidentals'.

I manage my own time, so if I wanted to take TOIL I could do, but I struggle to use all my holidays anyway.

[Cyberprog]

I don't get employers like this - the employee is clearly going out of their way to be away from their family and home for 3 weeks for the company, and is just asking for a bit of extra, unpaid, holiday so they can recuperate later in the year with their family.

You'd have to be a cold, heartless, boss/HR person to refuse that, and all that will happen is they will either look for work elsewhere, or work to rule and you will get less leeway out of them.

Work, as in life, is a game of balance. If you feel like your employer is taking the proverbial, you'll lean back a bit and not work quite so hard as a result.

[NDA]

Cyberprog said:

I don't get employers like this - the employee is clearly going out of their way to be away from their family and home for 3 weeks for the company, and is just asking for a bit of extra, unpaid, holiday so they can recuperate later in the year with their family.

You'd have to be a cold, heartless, boss/HR person to refuse that, and all that will happen is they will either look for work elsewhere, or work to rule and you will get less leeway out of them.

Work, as in life, is a game of balance. If you feel like your employer is taking the proverbial, you'll lean back a bit and not work quite so hard as a result.

I agree.

It's the easiest thing in the world to approve. Costs nothing.

HR departments are there in an advisory capacity only in my view.

[sc0tt]

NDA said:

Cyberprog said:

I don't get employers like this - the employee is clearly going out of their way to be away from their family and home for 3 weeks for the company, and is just asking for a bit of extra, unpaid, holiday so they can recuperate later in the year with their family.

You'd have to be a cold, heartless, boss/HR person to refuse that, and all that will happen is they will either look for work elsewhere, or work to rule and you will get less leeway out of them.

Work, as in life, is a game of balance. If you feel like your employer is taking the proverbial, you'll lean back a bit and not work quite so hard as a result.

I agree.

It's the easiest thing in the world to approve. Costs nothing.

HR departments are there in an advisory capacity only in my view.

Well I appreciate all your views. It was only a grip and I'm glad I am not the only one who feels the same.

I think in future said person is not going to be as flexible as previous now.

[FrankAbagnale]

So in the long run, everyone loses out.

Eventually they'll twig that being less tight and draconian will increase long term productivity.

[sc0tt]

FrankAbagnale said:

So in the long run, everyone loses out.

Eventually they'll twig that being less tight and draconian will increase long term productivity.

Of course. It's always the way.

Probably aside from me. I saved £186 only booking one week away.

[anonymous-user]

FrankAbagnale said:

So in the long run, everyone loses out.

Eventually they'll twig that being less tight and draconian will increase long term productivity.

You would hope so but I'd bet that a company that thinks this way just won't "get it".