Can you fire someone who's on long term sick?
Discussion
My wife works for a company in their UK office.
There are only three people in the UK.
One of them, who has been employed since the 1st october 2014 (temped since may 2014) has been off sick since the 12th of August with depression.
In total she has had over 90 days off sick since january.
Depression (which she has suffered from for years) was never disclosed at interview or was ever an issue while she was temping.
With only three people in the office they can't afford to carry this useless employee any longer (she isn't even that good at the job)
The company HR dept says they can't get rid of her while shes off sick.
That has got to be b
ks, shes taking the piss.
Does anyone know the legal position on this?
There are only three people in the UK.
One of them, who has been employed since the 1st october 2014 (temped since may 2014) has been off sick since the 12th of August with depression.
In total she has had over 90 days off sick since january.
Depression (which she has suffered from for years) was never disclosed at interview or was ever an issue while she was temping.
With only three people in the office they can't afford to carry this useless employee any longer (she isn't even that good at the job)
The company HR dept says they can't get rid of her while shes off sick.
That has got to be b
ks, shes taking the piss.Does anyone know the legal position on this?
Have a look at the case I posted.. It will explain the issues and what can be done..... I can say that the HR officer is wrong however... It is NOT impossible to dismiss someone due to long term absences.
The company may also wish to consider if the Equality Act for disability applies and take the appropriate steps too...
The company may also wish to consider if the Equality Act for disability applies and take the appropriate steps too...
Sickness policy at my organisation certainly indicates a willingness to dismiss in case of long term absence - we'll also dismiss for persistent short term absence above trigger points. Does suggest it needs to be done very carefully though, and if my experience of HR is typical, if they can avoid taking a difficult decision by kicking the can down the road they certainly will!
This isn't the advice you get off a forum. They need proper legal advice.
There will be far more detail required to comment - has the manager followed company policy to this point. Is that policy legal, etc etc.
It isn't simple to sack someone for this sort of thing. You only have to look at that recent case where a prison officer was sacked when signed off sick by her doctor - I believe because the employer found out she had gone to watch a rugby match. The poor woman ended up commuting suicide.
I'm not saying this is remotely the same, but HR need to be leading on this supported by legal.
There will be far more detail required to comment - has the manager followed company policy to this point. Is that policy legal, etc etc.
It isn't simple to sack someone for this sort of thing. You only have to look at that recent case where a prison officer was sacked when signed off sick by her doctor - I believe because the employer found out she had gone to watch a rugby match. The poor woman ended up commuting suicide.
I'm not saying this is remotely the same, but HR need to be leading on this supported by legal.
It comes down to what your procedures say and asking the question of Capability.
Yes you can dismiss. BUT you need to have jumped through a certain amount of hoops to satisfy at the end of the day.
Take good HR advice and double check that advice.
I'd suggest
Welfare visits
Counselling for the employee
1st warning about sickness after an investigation and then final warning , might be called improvement notice. then a second notice leading to a final notice.
Get a medical report and make sure its up to date, don't force the employee back to work.
That outlines the process, but tread carefully.
Yes you can dismiss. BUT you need to have jumped through a certain amount of hoops to satisfy at the end of the day.
Take good HR advice and double check that advice.
I'd suggest
Welfare visits
Counselling for the employee
1st warning about sickness after an investigation and then final warning , might be called improvement notice. then a second notice leading to a final notice.
Get a medical report and make sure its up to date, don't force the employee back to work.
That outlines the process, but tread carefully.
DragsterRR said:
Thanks for the info folks.
Bloody ridiculous hoops to jump through for a three person company.
But advice taken on board.
It's not, it's there for a good reason and from what I read you're more interested in sticking your beak into something that's not really your business. The requirements for a 3 person company arent massively different to a 3000 person company in a lot of aspects. Bloody ridiculous hoops to jump through for a three person company.
But advice taken on board.
Put yourself in the shoes of someone who's sick and needs time off work and then take another look at what you're saying to figure out if it's reasonable.
Shes not sick. She's taking the piss.
And if she was sick and has "suffered depression for years" then she should have disclosed it at interview.
Meanwhile she's been going to gigs and posting pics on facebook "having a great time"
And it is my business when it's making my wife upset because they can't cope with the workload while this freeloader seems to be inviolate.
So butt out yerself if you have nothing constructive to add.
And if she was sick and has "suffered depression for years" then she should have disclosed it at interview.
Meanwhile she's been going to gigs and posting pics on facebook "having a great time"
And it is my business when it's making my wife upset because they can't cope with the workload while this freeloader seems to be inviolate.
So butt out yerself if you have nothing constructive to add.
andy-xr said:
DragsterRR said:
Thanks for the info folks.
Bloody ridiculous hoops to jump through for a three person company.
But advice taken on board.
It's not, it's there for a good reason and from what I read you're more interested in sticking your beak into something that's not really your business. The requirements for a 3 person company arent massively different to a 3000 person company in a lot of aspects. Bloody ridiculous hoops to jump through for a three person company.
But advice taken on board.
Put yourself in the shoes of someone who's sick and needs time off work and then take another look at what you're saying to figure out if it's reasonable.
DragsterRR said:
Shes not sick. She's taking the piss.
And if she was sick and has "suffered depression for years" then she should have disclosed it at interview.
Meanwhile she's been going to gigs and posting pics on facebook "having a great time"
And it is my business when it's making my wife upset because they can't cope with the workload while this freeloader seems to be inviolate.
So butt out yerself if you have nothing constructive to add.
Are you a doctor? In particular, are you a psychiatrist? Have you examined the patient before making your diagnosis? Have you any understanding of what long term depression can be like? The employee might be malingering. Or she might be unwell, and might have been advised by her doctor to socialise, go to gigs, try to be upbeat, and so on. You don't know, and neither do I. The employer could ask the employee to see a doctor appointed by the employer to check out the diagnosis and prognosis. JasandJules and others have given sound advice above. The contract may be terminable, but the employer must act carefully.And if she was sick and has "suffered depression for years" then she should have disclosed it at interview.
Meanwhile she's been going to gigs and posting pics on facebook "having a great time"
And it is my business when it's making my wife upset because they can't cope with the workload while this freeloader seems to be inviolate.
So butt out yerself if you have nothing constructive to add.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 14th October 23:04
That point does not stand if the employee's depression amounts to a disability. A disabled person is not generally obliged to disclose the disability to a prospective employer (but context matters).
If the employee has been employed for under a year, then she is not protected against unfair dismissal, but as mentioned above the employer needs to check whether the depression is sufficiently long term and sufficient of an impairment to class as a disability.
If a person is disabled by long term depression, it would often not be lawful for an employer to refuse to employ that person on that basis.
The employee in question may or may not be faking it, but depression is a real illness, and can lead to many disadvantages in the workplace, which is why disabling depression gives rise to a protected status under equality law. This is not just soft PC blah - it's about redressing the imbalance that illness can cause.
The gigging might be a sign that the employee is not unwell, or it might, as I mentioned, reflect the advice of the employee's doctor. A depressed person often withdraws from social life, and a doctor may advise the depressed person to re engage with friends and social and hobby activities as part of the treatment of depression.
If the employee really is depressed, a bit of sympathy might not go amiss. Any one of us can suffer from mental illness, and most of us will have one or more episodes of mental fragility during our lives. Branding depressed people as skivers is part of the stigmatisation of mental illness that prevents many people from seeking qualified help to get better.
If the employee has been employed for under a year, then she is not protected against unfair dismissal, but as mentioned above the employer needs to check whether the depression is sufficiently long term and sufficient of an impairment to class as a disability.
If a person is disabled by long term depression, it would often not be lawful for an employer to refuse to employ that person on that basis.
The employee in question may or may not be faking it, but depression is a real illness, and can lead to many disadvantages in the workplace, which is why disabling depression gives rise to a protected status under equality law. This is not just soft PC blah - it's about redressing the imbalance that illness can cause.
The gigging might be a sign that the employee is not unwell, or it might, as I mentioned, reflect the advice of the employee's doctor. A depressed person often withdraws from social life, and a doctor may advise the depressed person to re engage with friends and social and hobby activities as part of the treatment of depression.
If the employee really is depressed, a bit of sympathy might not go amiss. Any one of us can suffer from mental illness, and most of us will have one or more episodes of mental fragility during our lives. Branding depressed people as skivers is part of the stigmatisation of mental illness that prevents many people from seeking qualified help to get better.
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 15th October 06:53
OP, there is almost certainly someone in your extended family and circle of friends who suffers from long term depression, even if you do not know about that. The illness can subside for a long period, and then come back again, triggered by any number of factors. Maybe one day you will become depressed yourself, although I hope that you don't.
DragsterRR said:
The point still stands that as she has been there less than a year and has "suffered from long term depression" she should have disclosed it at interview.
Its bullst. If she's well enough to go gigging she's well enough to be working.
That doesn't automatically follow. As others have said, there may be many reasons for her activities and only a specialist will be able to confirm whether she's truly ill, or taking the pee.Its bulls
t. If she's well enough to go gigging she's well enough to be working.Some years ago I had to dismiss someone who had been off sick for months. It was, eventually, achieved but doctor's evidence and some careful work by HR were essential.
My wife is off sick with depression at the moment. A nervous breakdown, actually, but she suffers from bipolar disorder on a day to day basis. She's been off for two months now (statutory sick pay). She can barely string a sentence together these past few months and spends most days staring at a wall or doing jigsaw puzzles so as not to have to think about anything. If she could, she'd stay in bed 24 hrs a day. It gets to the point that I force her out of the house to go and stay with friends just to stop her slotting herself. Her friends may take her out. She may be seen out and about.
I wouldn't be completely surprised to come home one day to find that my wife had taken her own life.
Just saying.
I wouldn't be completely surprised to come home one day to find that my wife had taken her own life.
Just saying.
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