worth considering this offer?
Discussion
Had two interviews with one SME Company back In January this year for a permanent position, I didn’t get any proper feedback and then the HR mentioned that the company is planning to look at other resources for their software development.
Fair enough I moved on….last week HR from this same company contacted me, asking if I am still in the market. the Company’s head asked me to meet him in the office, we had a 30 mins chat around this role and it turned out that company was looking at a contractor to develop a piece of software for them in March and they asked him to come up with some solution and then demonstrate to them. During over third meeting, I asked him quite a few questions and raised my concerns, and he mentioned that he is not fully confident about this contractor and not sure if his work is up to standards. He said he wants someone to come on board and take care of all their software systems and if needed hire a contractor to finish a job quickly. This person will have fully authority to either develop the system in house or hire a contractor to finish the job quickly.
So far the company has been relying on third part software’s and they don’t have any in house software and database specialist.
I was asked to come again (the fourth time) in the office for a day and meet with different people and look at their systems and see how I can improve them and at the same time it will get to know the company. I went to their office last week and spent 4-5 hours, it was bit of a strange environment not too much professional and didn’t like the office and specially the location at all, on a positive side, a lot of things can be computerised so work is there which would keep me busy. I gave very short presentation and they like my ideas. He asked me to email him about my salary expectations.
I had few concerns like what if the work is finished in few years and would this effect my role, they might hire another contractor to cut the cost. Also why didn’t they hire me back in January? The company’s director/Head told me that their development work would never finish so this job is for life and after my second interview they were not fully sure about filling up this role on permanent basis and that’s why they took their time finalize it.
I still have few concerns, why does he want to design new system in very small amount of time, he has asked number of times during my last two meetings if I have connections with contractors who can do a job quickly. I have been thinking from different angles and want to make sure this is a right role for me and I am not jumping ship just because of money (over 50% pay raise).
Fair enough I moved on….last week HR from this same company contacted me, asking if I am still in the market. the Company’s head asked me to meet him in the office, we had a 30 mins chat around this role and it turned out that company was looking at a contractor to develop a piece of software for them in March and they asked him to come up with some solution and then demonstrate to them. During over third meeting, I asked him quite a few questions and raised my concerns, and he mentioned that he is not fully confident about this contractor and not sure if his work is up to standards. He said he wants someone to come on board and take care of all their software systems and if needed hire a contractor to finish a job quickly. This person will have fully authority to either develop the system in house or hire a contractor to finish the job quickly.
So far the company has been relying on third part software’s and they don’t have any in house software and database specialist.
I was asked to come again (the fourth time) in the office for a day and meet with different people and look at their systems and see how I can improve them and at the same time it will get to know the company. I went to their office last week and spent 4-5 hours, it was bit of a strange environment not too much professional and didn’t like the office and specially the location at all, on a positive side, a lot of things can be computerised so work is there which would keep me busy. I gave very short presentation and they like my ideas. He asked me to email him about my salary expectations.
I had few concerns like what if the work is finished in few years and would this effect my role, they might hire another contractor to cut the cost. Also why didn’t they hire me back in January? The company’s director/Head told me that their development work would never finish so this job is for life and after my second interview they were not fully sure about filling up this role on permanent basis and that’s why they took their time finalize it.
I still have few concerns, why does he want to design new system in very small amount of time, he has asked number of times during my last two meetings if I have connections with contractors who can do a job quickly. I have been thinking from different angles and want to make sure this is a right role for me and I am not jumping ship just because of money (over 50% pay raise).
Edited by alec1975 on Saturday 23 April 21:58
Edited by alec1975 on Saturday 23 April 21:59
k that. Id of told them to do one (politely) after the 2nd meeting. 
alec1975 said:
Apart from mike no one else has given any reason to reject this offer.
Sometimes there is no discernible reason, there is just your own gut reaction and instincts. Something like what has prompted you to post on here about it. Something's making you wary.Up to you what you do. Trust your instincts, analyze the situation until you understand what's making you cautious, take a leap of faith that it'll all turn out ok....?
Generally, if I have options I'll trust my instincts.
slow_poke said:
Sometimes there is no discernible reason, there is just your own gut reaction and instincts. Something like what has prompted you to post on here about it. Something's making you wary.
Up to you what you do. Trust your instincts, analyze the situation until you understand what's making you cautious, take a leap of faith that it'll all turn out ok....?
Generally, if I have options I'll trust my instincts.
Thanks, i think you are right. May be my post is bit too much on negative side, but thats how i just felt through the whole process.Up to you what you do. Trust your instincts, analyze the situation until you understand what's making you cautious, take a leap of faith that it'll all turn out ok....?
Generally, if I have options I'll trust my instincts.
alec1975 said:
Apart from mike no one else has given any reason to reject this offer.
Okay1) You interviewed in January. They got a Contractor in in March.
So what did they do from January to March? Contractors by definition are "phone up, start tomorrow" resources. Taking two months to get a contractor on board implies they can't plan or manage. Or they went through lots of contractors, who have massive experience at smelling dead ducks, before they found someone desperate enough to take them on.
2) The "Head" has said he is not fully confident in the contractor and if his work is up to standard.
a) Grown up business people don't mess around behind their supplier's back like that and b) How can the "head" judge the work of someone who by definition has skills outside the company's realm
In the space of four months this company has gone from wanting a permie, to wanting a contractor, to wanting a permie again. Does that not tell you everything you need to know about their ability to make and execute a plan? Can you not see that in three months time or less it will be you whose work is "not up to standard" and about whom "he has concerns" - only he won't be telling you, he'll be telling a contractor that he is interviewing.
3) You were told they want someone to "either develop the system in house or get a contractor in to finish the work quickly". You had just been told they had concerns about "work up to standards". It is an old and annoying maxim, but quite valid, that you can have any two from cheap/quick/good. This "head" appears to be looking for all three. The day you start you will be under pressure to deliver "quickly" while also delivering "good" and from the sounds of it with a single resource (there was no "s" on the end of contractor). Again, they cannot make up their mind - "do it yourself or get someone in" sounds like giving you lots of freedom but is really saying "we don't know what we want or how to get there, we're just going to flop around helplessly blaming everyone else".
4) The company has been relying on third party software and don't have any in-house software and database specialist. Now I can read this in several different ways. You don't say what this SME does, but if they are not a software house why are they developing their own software? Far too many firms believe that they are "special" and have "special requirements" which need "special software". In most cases they simply don't know their own requirements and can't articulate them, so instead use a software development project as a proxy for a business process definition exercise. I would also be amazed if any non-IT firm under 50 people needed a "database specialist" in this day and age. So again, sounds to me like they have bizarre ideas. I've worked with places where "we need a database" was a mantra that people chanted when what they really meant was "we need to get a %$&"*$ clue what we're doing". Apparently "databases" are magic bullets which solve business problems, and not just a more efficient filing cabinet.
5) You have now made four visits and all told invested 1-2 days of effort in the place before getting an offer. That suggests they are not overly serious. They seemed to have bagged an entire day of consultancy from you for free prior to making an offer. But also that means you will be expected to solve things from day 1. I can still recall one job where I was in front of a customer on my second day, "consulting" on a piece of software I had never seen before.
6) You said the environment was not professional and nothing computerised. Can you not see that these days if someone isn't at least using Excel or Access or a cloud-based off-the-shelf solution off their own back, trying to force them to use any kind of formalised process-driven system is simply beating your head against a brick wall? Non Computerised + Non Professional + Long Winded Recruitment + Changing their Minds = feckless
7) "Development work will never finish". But they weren't sure about filling the role on a permanent basis. Which is it? Perpetual development, or something which doesn't require a permanent member of staff? That is a straight either/or decision which should require no effort to decide. Or they don't have a clue ... again.
8) Asking about connections with contractors. So again, they want this system "quick". But are not themselves "quick" or decisive. Can you imagine trying to nail them down on a requirement? Ask them in January, they eventually tell you one thing in March and then change their minds again in April? All while asking you why it's not ready yet.
The entire setup reeks, given that you subconsciously want to find reasons to take it but have basically just written a list of reasons not to do so, just look inside yourself and decide how you will feel in three months' time when the boss man is screaming at you for not delivering his vague and undefined system.
Flooble said:
4) The company has been relying on third party software and don't have any in-house software and database specialist. Now I can read this in several different ways. You don't say what this SME does, but if they are not a software house why are they developing their own software? Far too many firms believe that they are "special" and have "special requirements" which need "special software". In most cases they simply don't know their own requirements and can't articulate them, so instead use a software development project as a proxy for a business process definition exercise. I would also be amazed if any non-IT firm under 50 people needed a "database specialist" in this day and age. So again, sounds to me like they have bizarre ideas. I've worked with places where "we need a database" was a mantra that people chanted when what they really meant was "we need to get a %$&"*$ clue what we're doing". Apparently "databases" are magic bullets which solve business problems, and not just a more efficient filing cabinet.
Many thanks for the detail reply.Company's turnover is around £11 million and they are service provider. They are in the business for over 20 yrs and expanding slowly. They want to have their own in house ERP system where everything is connected to one database. At the moment HR is running on excel sheets and account's department is using two different systems. One or two other departments need CRM system. I think they can't afford to buy large ERP system.
They are actually clueless and don't know what they want. I think they are fed up with third party systems, need someone in house for support and development.
It is very valid point that in last four month they have not made any progress at all.
I was planning to move into contract world so One option would be to join them for three months and if it doesn't work out then look at contract work. Money on offer is same as contract rates.
Edited by alec1975 on Sunday 24th April 13:20
Edited by alec1975 on Sunday 24th April 13:21
£11 million turnover is way too small to need an actual ERP system. That's still medium company territory where a decent accounts package gets you most of the way. Sounds like someone there read a glossy brochure and decided "ERP" was the cure to their problems. Nobody in their right mind would try and develop an in house ERP system. Especially not under the cosh and with only 1-2 programmers.
I'd say something like Sage 200 (*) would actually meet their needs, but you seem to have realised they are clueless. I have seen this too many times - they are incapable of diagnosing the problem is with them and keep searching for a solution.
You sound like you are being lured by money, so if that's the case then just do it with your eyes open (as you seem to be concluding).
Just make sure you are mentally prepared for the absolute nightmare which awaits. Do not underestimate just how badly a toxic environment can scar you. Listen me how cynical I sound for example
(*) Okay, I would never actually recommend Sage, however, they don't deserve free advice
I'd say something like Sage 200 (*) would actually meet their needs, but you seem to have realised they are clueless. I have seen this too many times - they are incapable of diagnosing the problem is with them and keep searching for a solution.
You sound like you are being lured by money, so if that's the case then just do it with your eyes open (as you seem to be concluding).
Just make sure you are mentally prepared for the absolute nightmare which awaits. Do not underestimate just how badly a toxic environment can scar you. Listen me how cynical I sound for example
(*) Okay, I would never actually recommend Sage, however, they don't deserve free advice
You've seen the user interface for SAP? Or Siebel? I have not seen an ERP system with a friendly UI, it's way down the priority list for whatever reason.
Just another red flag really if they have bought a piece of software in the last twelve months and are now looking to write their own solution instead. If they couldn't implement an off-the-shelf package which is UK produced and supported, the chances of you having anything sensible to work from are slim to non-existent.
But good luck whatever you decide!
Just another red flag really if they have bought a piece of software in the last twelve months and are now looking to write their own solution instead. If they couldn't implement an off-the-shelf package which is UK produced and supported, the chances of you having anything sensible to work from are slim to non-existent.
But good luck whatever you decide!
OP sounds like you can jump ship without too much downside if you want/need to but it seems that they like you and what you. Can do for them. If you express an honest view with them that they could cut you loose for another contractor then negotiate some severance pay into the package so it affords you some protection should this occur -if it's not needed then alls well and good.
slow_poke said:
Sometimes there is no discernible reason, there is just your own gut reaction and instincts. Something like what has prompted you to post on here about it. Something's making you wary.
Up to you what you do. Trust your instincts, analyze the situation until you understand what's making you cautious, take a leap of faith that it'll all turn out ok....?
Generally, if I have options I'll trust my instincts.
Money on offer is really good (50% rise) but environment is not professional at all. I might be wrong but i think professionalism is more important than money unless you are really desperate for a job.Up to you what you do. Trust your instincts, analyze the situation until you understand what's making you cautious, take a leap of faith that it'll all turn out ok....?
Generally, if I have options I'll trust my instincts.
The HR person I was dealing with has been sacked and I managed to get in touch with him and had a long discussion about the company. It is kind of a family business; operation director is a close relative of a MD and some others are on different posts.
I have tried to negotiate two days working from home but they are not flexible at all. They are willing to give 5 k rises after few months depending on performance but we all know it doesn’t happen all the time. Basic salary on offer is still attractive and I can save loads in two years time.
I might not get the same offer again but professionalism and the people i am going to work with are really important for me. Working two days from home could have changed my mind slightly.
alec1975 said:
I might be wrong but i think professionalism is more important than money unless you are really desperate for a job.
>slap<Money. You work for money. You exchange your skills, services and ultimately your precious, limited time for money. More money is better than lesser money. Professionalism and being professional is how you get more money.
It's all about the money. Don't kid yourself otherwise. As soon as any employer calculates that he can't afford to keep you, or you're not worth the money, you're out the door.
You work for money. Everything else - professionalism, sense of achievement, camaraderie, is a bonus. Keep your eyes on the prize.
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