is 8 to 5 normal working hours

[PoleDriver]

37.5 hours per week when I'm in the office .
Anything up to 80 hours when I'm on site!

[Jasandjules]

It amuses me that the UK equate longer hours with a better employee.

I remember when a colleague took three weeks off. I had to cover him, a few days training and away we went. I did my job, and his. In the same time. And the backlog of work he had was gone within that three weeks. You see, whilst he spent 10 hours a day in the office, he was either really slow or really c**p. But everyone thought he worked soooo hard...

[rosbif77]

CX53 said:

Christ that sounds even worse than the deal teachers get in the UK.

I think i'm fortunate. The national average salary over here is 1800€.

[CX53]

Some people don't work to their capabilities deliberately though. Their thinking being that if they do more, more will be expected all of the time, whereas if they do something slowly they won't have to rush the next time to keep the pace.

Working in engineering/manufacturing I see this all the time amongst some of the more lazy/complacent.

It's false overtime working and talking a good talk which sometimes helps people stand out as a good worker, fortunately the overtime thing doesn't come in to it in my job, as if you're crap, working more hours doing more crap work won't make you look any better.

[bitchstewie]

whoami said:

mph1977 said:

Flooble said:

I wonder if the people merrily posting how long they work (11 hours a day, 5 days a week or whatever) are actually contracted to do those hours?

or just worl in a culture of presenteeism or a culture where not getting tasks done regardless of how unachievable they are in a set time frame is seen as failure ...

Or just take a pride in their work?

I take great pride in my work but I don't equate that with being in the office.

British work culture is weird in many (not all) places and seems to assume that if you're not visibly present and "first to go last to leave" you're not doing as much as your colleagues.

I'll happily sit on a Sunday afternoon or an evening watching the football with the VPN on if something needs doing but I'm fked if I'm ever going to be sitting at my desk @ 6pm in all but the most exceptional circumstance just because it looks better.

Of course, I'm lucky enough to have an employer that fits in with this approach.

[p1stonhead]

bhstewie said:

whoami said:

mph1977 said:

Flooble said:

I wonder if the people merrily posting how long they work (11 hours a day, 5 days a week or whatever) are actually contracted to do those hours?

or just worl in a culture of presenteeism or a culture where not getting tasks done regardless of how unachievable they are in a set time frame is seen as failure ...

Or just take a pride in their work?

I take great pride in my work but I don't equate that with being in the office.

British work culture is weird in many (not all) places and seems to assume that if you're not visibly present and "first to go last to leave" you're not doing as much as your colleagues.

I'll happily sit on a Sunday afternoon or an evening watching the football with the VPN on if something needs doing but I'm fked if I'm ever going to be sitting at my desk @ 6pm in all but the most exceptional circumstance just because it looks better.

Of course, I'm lucky enough to have an employer that fits in with this approach.

I agree. Trying to look like you are working by staying late is absolutely pointless. Working until the work is done is another matter which is what I was getting at.

Edited by p1stonhead on Sunday 1st May 09:36

[CX53]

rosbif77 said:

I think i'm fortunate. The national average salary over here is 1800€.

Crikey.. Well i guess all of your efforts are justified as being part of a well paying job then?

Due to availability of overtime in my job, ive earned more than the national UK average since I was 17 (I did a LOT of hours when I was a trainee!), and now I'm fortunate enough to do okay - but I remember how hard it was trying to pay the rent and car insurance etc when I was first starting out - I was earning more than my parents but with today's cost of living I didn't really have any spare money at all, dads mortgage is about £250 but my rent was £750. How can it be that someone struggles to live on their own when they earn the national average wage? It's little wonder young adults stay living at home for so long...

I think it's quite sad that you have to be earning a small fortune before having a comfortable life, there are a million jobs I'd much rather be doing than mine but I simply can't afford to. By the sounds of it, moving in to teaching for you was a difficult choice with the drop in pay, and it's a great shame.

[ATG]

bhstewie said:

I think some industries and some individual company cultures seem to think you measure someones contribution and productivity by how long they spend in the office.

Yup, and many firms tell themselves they aren't doing this, but actually they are. And frankly that's really poor. They know intellectually that measuring hours worked is no proxy for productivity, yet they do it anyway. This is absolutely rife in banking and finance in front office support roles, middle office and IT. Not so much in the front office itself. Corp finance tends to have a completely insane attitude to hours and the requirements for putting deals together.

In jobs that require analytical thinking and the ability to spot errors and anomalies it is pretty bloody stupid to encourage really long regular hours. There aren't any super heros. No one works at their best this way. Plenty are in denial about it.

[rosbif77]

CX53 said:

rosbif77 said:

I think i'm fortunate. The national average salary over here is 1800€.

Crikey.. Well i guess all of your efforts are justified as being part of a well paying job then?

Due to availability of overtime in my job, ive earned more than the national UK average since I was 17 (I did a LOT of hours when I was a trainee!), and now I'm fortunate enough to do okay - but I remember how hard it was trying to pay the rent and car insurance etc when I was first starting out - I was earning more than my parents but with today's cost of living I didn't really have any spare money at all, dads mortgage is about £250 but my rent was £750. How can it be that someone struggles to live on their own when they earn the national average wage? It's little wonder young adults stay living at home for so long...

I think it's quite sad that you have to be earning a small fortune before having a comfortable life, there are a million jobs I'd much rather be doing than mine but I simply can't afford to. By the sounds of it, moving in to teaching for you was a difficult choice with the drop in pay, and it's a great shame.

I never expected to be struggling on above the average wage in France, especially when i add up all my teaching hours/extra work on top=50- 60 h working week + commuting!

I eat two deals à day so my kids can eat three!

[Foul Bob]

CX53 said:

Crikey.. Well i guess all of your efforts are justified as being part of a well paying job then?

Due to availability of overtime in my job, ive earned more than the national UK average since I was 17 (I did a LOT of hours when I was a trainee!), and now I'm fortunate enough to do okay - but I remember how hard it was trying to pay the rent and car insurance etc when I was first starting out - I was earning more than my parents but with today's cost of living I didn't really have any spare money at all, dads mortgage is about £250 but my rent was £750. How can it be that someone struggles to live on their own when they earn the national average wage? It's little wonder young adults stay living at home for so long...

I think it's quite sad that you have to be earning a small fortune before having a comfortable life, there are a million jobs I'd much rather be doing than mine but I simply can't afford to. By the sounds of it, moving in to teaching for you was a difficult choice with the drop in pay, and it's a great shame.

Another discussion altogether, but I completely agree. The national average wage should be such that a person can afford to support themselves easily with some disposable income. In some areas of the country this is completely possible and infact possinle on the living wage, my mother lives in yorkshire and lives a reasonably comfortable life working in tesco. But in most parts of the country you'd be skint unless you lived in a shared house or with parents.

[egor110]

CX53 said:

rosbif77 said:

I think i'm fortunate. The national average salary over here is 1800€.

Crikey.. Well i guess all of your efforts are justified as being part of a well paying job then?

Due to availability of overtime in my job, ive earned more than the national UK average since I was 17 (I did a LOT of hours when I was a trainee!), and now I'm fortunate enough to do okay - but I remember how hard it was trying to pay the rent and car insurance etc when I was first starting out - I was earning more than my parents but with today's cost of living I didn't really have any spare money at all, dads mortgage is about £250 but my rent was £750. How can it be that someone struggles to live on their own when they earn the national average wage? It's little wonder young adults stay living at home for so long...

I think it's quite sad that you have to be earning a small fortune before having a comfortable life, there are a million jobs I'd much rather be doing than mine but I simply can't afford to. By the sounds of it, moving in to teaching for you was a difficult choice with the drop in pay, and it's a great shame.

Ask your dad about his mortgage in the 80's ealry 90's when we had huge interest rates, not the .5% we now.

[CX53]

egor110 said:

Ask your dad about his mortgage in the 80's ealry 90's when we had huge interest rates, not the .5% we now.

Yes, I'll also ask him about the 0% deposit which made it possible in the first place, otherwise he would be paying the same or more as me now to rent somewhere.

[CX53]

rosbif77 said:

I never expected to be struggling on above the average wage in France, especially when i add up all my teaching hours/extra work on top=50- 60 h working week + commuting!

I eat two deals à day so my kids can eat three!

Do you ever think about getting out and going back to your old job, or is it worth it? Curious as I've got some decisions to make with work at the moment..

[bitchstewie]

ATG said:

bhstewie said:

I think some industries and some individual company cultures seem to think you measure someones contribution and productivity by how long they spend in the office.

Yup, and many firms tell themselves they aren't doing this, but actually they are. And frankly that's really poor. They know intellectually that measuring hours worked is no proxy for productivity, yet they do it anyway. This is absolutely rife in banking and finance in front office support roles, middle office and IT. Not so much in the front office itself. Corp finance tends to have a completely insane attitude to hours and the requirements for putting deals together.

In jobs that require analytical thinking and the ability to spot errors and anomalies it is pretty bloody stupid to encourage really long regular hours. There aren't any super heros. No one works at their best this way. Plenty are in denial about it.

It's not just a UK thing to be fair (if fair is the right word). Somehow I seem to have done relatively alright and the question of hours has never come up.

It's like anything, there's good employers and cultures and there are bad employers and cultures - for me what's quite telling is that I think more often the people who work for the good can spot the bad, whilst the ones who work for the bad often assume it's just the same everywhere else.

[Nickbrapp]

I work 9 hours door to door, so if I leave the house at 8 I'm home by 5, regardless of where I have to go, if I stay later I get over time.

[iphonedyou]

chonok said:

Having worked for myself from home for the last 5 years, my hours are pretty much what I want them to be.

I am quite surprised at the amount of people on here saying that a 9am start is the norm.

Even about 4 or 5 years ago, when I last tried applying for jobs, I don't remember any with a 9am start.

They were all either 8am or 8.30am. I think 9-5 is becoming a thing of the past (in my industry anyway)

Really? Surprised?

It's actually the origin of the phrase '9 to 5'. There was even a fairly famous song about it.

[rosbif77]

CX53 said:

rosbif77 said:

I never expected to be struggling on above the average wage in France, especially when i add up all my teaching hours/extra work on top=50- 60 h working week + commuting!

I eat two deals à day so my kids can eat three!

Do you ever think about getting out and going back to your old job, or is it worth it? Curious as I've got some decisions to make with work at the moment..

Oh yes i've definitely thought about it.
It boils down to a simple choice;
Stay in France, struggle every month and eat less, but see my kids grow up,
or come back to the Uk start again but not see my kids grow up.

[egor110]

CX53 said:

egor110 said:

Ask your dad about his mortgage in the 80's ealry 90's when we had huge interest rates, not the .5% we now.

Yes, I'll also ask him about the 0% deposit which made it possible in the first place, otherwise he would be paying the same or more as me now to rent somewhere.

Perhaps the answer is YOU have to move to a cheaper part of the country to buy a house that requires a lower deposit or accept your current situation and stay put?

Blaming your parents for working and paying off there mortgage with 10% rates is going to get you nowhere.

[CX53]

egor110 said:

Perhaps the answer is YOU have to move to a cheaper part of the country to buy a house that requires a lower deposit or accept your current situation and stay put?

Blaming your parents for working and paying off there mortgage with 10% rates is going to get you nowhere.

I wasn't complaining about my own situation, how it was for me back then when I was renting and on less money and how it is now are two different things. Just passing comment on how difficult it can be for people on the national average wage - which by the way is harder to achieve in the cheaper parts of the country where 27k pa is considered a very good salary.

I wasn't blaming anyone for anything either...

Calm yourself down.

Edited by CX53 on Sunday 1st May 12:29

[Muzzer79]

When I started 18-odd years ago; it was 0800-1700, with an hour lunch

Now, we're contracted for 0900-1700 with a half hour lunch