Possible redundancy - some advice

Possible redundancy - some advice

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Rick_1138

Original Poster:

3,656 posts

177 months

Thursday 2nd June 2016
quotequote all
Hi folks,

Sadly due to economic issues there are to possibly be redundancies at my work, i was informed that my role was at risk but not actually redundant yet.

I have been made redundant once before in 2008 and that was a case of you are being made redundant, 4 weeks notice etc.

This time it seems there are to be consultations about it, all i know is all suggestions and discussions are open.

I do QHSE and am the only person on site who does it, so possibly being made redundant came as quite a shock as i cover quite a lot and carry out all audits and such on quality and HSE stuff, organise training, control recycling and waste stuff, competency records and all that.

I realise that cuts will be made and that i am not straight out the door just yet but you get worried and start thinking the worst.

However things i thought about talking about in the meeting were my day to day duties that cover the important stuff like management standard controls, supplier audit stuff etc, stuff that requires a qualified person to do and they need for the business.

Technically the role cant actually be made redundant, but i am not naive enough to use that as an excuse.

I was just posting on PH for some tips on this type of situ, we dont have an union here, so its just myself in the meeting, i am allowed someone with me, but no idea who i would take in with me.

Just any tips from the PH bunch on what i should be looking at to put my case forward.

cheers guys

spikeyhead

17,225 posts

196 months

Thursday 2nd June 2016
quotequote all
Spend your energy looking for a new role, it will be time far better spent.

Troubleatmill

10,210 posts

158 months

Thursday 2nd June 2016
quotequote all
As above....
Start looking for a new role.


Some redundancy packages.... are very generous...
Others are ste.


But if you have ever read "Who moved my cheese".....

A bit noddy... but a comparison between 2 mice in a lab rat maze, and 2 humans in the corporate world..


The mice... every day... the reward ( the cheese ) was in the same place in the maze.
One day... the cheese was not there.
The mice looked at each other, thought about it.... and decided... right.. it isn't going to be here anymore... and they buggered off around the maze to find their "new cheese"

The humans... on told being that they are going to be made redundant ... went into "It;s not fair... Why me... Self pity bullst... etc etc - but did nothing about it..."


The morale of the story.... when "st like this happens... even mice have worked out bloody quick what to do... we fanny around in self pity "


If your redundancy package is a full year salary type... sit it out.
If it is a 4 week notice type... find another job.

Rick_1138

Original Poster:

3,656 posts

177 months

Friday 3rd June 2016
quotequote all
Re above posts, that of course will be my plan, if\once i am made redundant.

I am not actually gone yet, consultation thing is on monday where discussions about whats happening, my suggestions, their suggestions etc are to go ahead.

My latent cynicism tells me this is a show but you never know. Main question is how will they carry out qhse required systems and standards with no qualified HSE person on site, hse contractors arent known for their cheap day rates!

I was more looking for the kind of stuff i should be asking or writing down during this consultation as ive never had one before, last time i was made redundant in 2008 was taken into managers office and told i was being made redundant.

So i know what to do if i get the shove, but this may look at other ways i can be retained also.

I realise its bad for company just now, but hearing about who has redundancy consultation notices too, i wonder if its also a head cutting of folk they're maybe not as happy with. maybe not and im just getting a bit mopy but its not nice after 5 years, excellent audit reviews and never a negative appraisal to be one of the first in line was a bit st tbh

FiF

43,964 posts

250 months

Friday 3rd June 2016
quotequote all
Clearly you like the role, ie QHSE. As you say the need isn't going away. Have you built up sufficient contacts and network to set up as a contractor / consultant? Despite rumours to the contrary there are a lot of manufacturing outfits in the country, typically SME ops, where they need thus function covering but the owner doesn't have the time or expertise to do it in even a half assed fashion. Insurance companies can and do want to see proper evidence of HSE in place, including proper risk assessments, COSSH information and records, and owners are too busy just trying to get stuff out of the door and find orders.

In my opinion there is an opportunity for someone with a pragmatic approach, who knows their way round industry and the legislation. Note the word pragmatic, very important. HSE and risk assessments get a bad press round here, but get the reputation for helping firms in a reasonable and practical way will help the business develop.

For a short time after I left my first career, this is what I did for a mate faced with this very problem in his firm. He'd had a consultant in, who'd got him started, but was limited in his approach and attitude. Spent some time getting him sorted, and it was clear that there was potential for other firms crying out for help. Not my scene so didn't take it up further and went into a completely different path.

Maybe it's not for you, but just an observation. Maybe your current outfit could be your first client?

Rick_1138

Original Poster:

3,656 posts

177 months

Friday 3rd June 2016
quotequote all
Its something to think about, but i'd be terrified of working as my own boss, mainly as i have no idea about taxation, how pay and invoices work etc.

I would need some re-training also as i am competent to run systems but for implementation you need a bit more.

There's also a health concern, (nothing major) stomach thing but it makes travelling stressful so thats a consideration.

We will see what happens tuesday afternoon and go from there. I am calling Acas this weekend and see what they say.

A friend was in a similar role but offshore, but his whole place went belly up, he is now a postie, but he didnt do some of the system control stuff i did.

Scary biscuits, especially galling as we were planning buying a house in october time frown

ruggedscotty

5,606 posts

208 months

Friday 3rd June 2016
quotequote all
Well this is pretty relevant....

I received an email on Wednsday that there was an announcement on Thursday morning. Im backshift it was in the morning but was told that it be best if I attended. So I did.

The conference call said that there was restructuring going on and that those affected by this would be notified in the next half hour or so. Sure enough an email was received and I was notified that I was to have a one to one. Another conference call occurred and basically it said if you have not been notified the it doesnt involve you.

So a few hours later sat in an office Im being told that my job is at risk, I can apply for other roles that fit within my role profile and see what happens, the company will support me and hopefully something can be sorted out or I can take voluntary redundancy. If I apply for other roles and I am not successful I will be made compulsory redundant.

Thats it 15 years of working for the same company, they say its the role thats being made redundant, displaced or what ever, they have all those ways that they use to make it sound its not you but us etc. However its still being told that you are losing your source of income. That you are going to be jobless some point in the future.

What do you do ? Well no one is going to come running up and give you a job. Thats just not going to happen. See what training and support is there, see what you can get to help you on your onward journey. Because it is onward.

If the package isnt great then start looking now and try get a job sorted out and go to it, dont wait about for it to end as you will quickly use any savings that you have. If the expected package is decent then wait for it, but still get out there and size up the job market. Brush up the CV get on linkedin. do all that you can to get up to speed with whats going on. Dont put your head in the sand. dont run away from it.

Rick_1138

Original Poster:

3,656 posts

177 months

Friday 3rd June 2016
quotequote all
I have just had a cursory view of job sites , but nothing coming up in a hse role, but that was only a quick look.

CV will get updated, and put out to agencies (done this previously after uni and after first redundancy in 2008 and they are actually quite good, if the process is a bit of a pain with some of the bullst at times.

Other option is if nothing is forthcoming in qhse, is this time to retrain, i am early 30's so there's scope, but thats a last resort option i think for now.

I am not one to sit on my hands, work is very important and id like to be in work/ready to go into another role within my period of notice if it comes up.

Redundancy package would be week per year of service i think.

Havign a chat with another guy i kow who has had notice of possible redundancy, basically guy brought in as a development manager for the business has basically spent last few months going through folks work and reviewing stuff and has probably seen some deficiencies in folks work, and instead of some input into areas of improvment, (of which i wont have many as never had previous poor reviews) then its out on the ear, and this consultancy thing is just a waste of time.

Trying not ot be angry or upset at work but christ its hard to sit and carry on knowing my fates already been decided, this is just the layers of wrapping i have to go through to find my 'gift'

Edited by Rick_1138 on Friday 3rd June 10:03

andy-xr

13,204 posts

203 months

Friday 3rd June 2016
quotequote all
I've been made redundant quite a few times, some were genuine, others were a good way of parting company because it just wasnt working out as we'd planned.

The main thing I think is to not take it personally, because at work, it's just business. Business has to move forwards in it's best interests and if that's a leaner version, cool. Hope they get to a point where they can move forwards and do well.

That being said, you are now priority #1, and work, basically, isnt. Negotiate hard on your severance, get a good reference written in as part of the deal. While you've got to do enough in physically being there in order to get the redundancy payout, it's time to start talking to new people. There's nowt the existing company can realistically do about this, and many companies will give you time off for interviews when they've served notice to you. Assuming you arent being redeployed within the company, your main mission now is to get another job.

I've always found that something more positive has come out of every redundancy I've had, even if it's taken a while to see it, it has been there. Sometimes I spend time thinking if x hadnt happened then I wouldnt have done y and I wouldnt have had as much fun/enjoyment/whatever

When looking for new jobs, I've always found it easier to get into something with an intro. Your existing network for example, your existing boss might also know people. Your friends in the industry. These all come before hitting the job sites, because that's a colder intro to make, they dont know you, and you have to get to know them and convince them you're the right guy for the job. It's a personal thing, but I avoid recruiters as much as I can, mainly because they havent been able to make a clean intro to me without it costing me time and money, and havent found anything I wasnt already aware of

I've struggled with a couple of redundnacues because it's hard to break a habit. One company I worked with for 7 years made me redundnat, and I took that pretty hard. Mainly because instead of getting up, logging into my email and eating my Cheerios then calling a couple of colleagues about email that'd come in overnight, I didnt have that routine, and when you've done it for years it's difficult to change.

I've always found though that people come through redundancy in one of two ways. Either fk them and their fking stty job, I'll fk them over the next fking time I can, or cheers for the opportunity, I'm off to do bigger and better things, we might meet again, have a good one



Edited by andy-xr on Friday 3rd June 10:51

Rick_1138

Original Poster:

3,656 posts

177 months

Friday 3rd June 2016
quotequote all
andy-xr said:
I've been made redundant quite a few times, some were genuine, others were a good way of parting company because it just wasnt working out as we'd planned.

The main thing I think is to not take it personally, because at work, it's just business. Business has to move forwards in it's best interests and if that's a leaner version, cool. Hope they get to a point where they can move forwards and do well.

That being said, you are now priority #1, and work, basically, isnt. Negotiate hard on your severance, get a good reference written in as part of the deal. While you've got to do enough in physically being there in order to get the redundancy payout, it's time to start talking to new people. There's nowt the existing company can realistically do about this, and many companies will give you time off for interviews when they've served notice to you. Assuming you arent being redeployed within the company, your main mission now is to get another job.

I've always found that something more positive has come out of every redundancy I've had, even if it's taken a while to see it, it has been there. Sometimes I spend time thinking if x hadnt happened then I wouldnt have done y and I wouldnt have had as much fun/enjoyment/whatever

When looking for new jobs, I've always found it easier to get into something with an intro. Your existing network for example, your existing boss might also know people. Your friends in the industry. These all come before hitting the job sites, because that's a colder intro to make, they dont know you, and you have to get to know them and convince them you're the right guy for the job. It's a personal thing, but I avoid recruiters as much as I can, mainly because they havent been able to make a clean intro to me without it costing me time and money, and havent found anything I wasnt already aware of

I've struggled with a couple of redundnacues because it's hard to break a habit. One company I worked with for 7 years made me redundnat, and I took that pretty hard. Mainly because instead of getting up, logging into my email and eating my Cheerios then calling a couple of colleagues about email that'd come in overnight, I didnt have that routine, and when you've done it for years it's difficult to change.

I've always found though that people come through redundancy in one of two ways. Either fk them and their fking stty job, I'll fk them over the next fking time I can, or cheers for the opportunity, I'm off to do bigger and better things, we might meet again, have a good one



Edited by andy-xr on Friday 3rd June 10:51
I have started down the road to looking after #1, mainly update my CV, just basic update for now, ill see if some people can cast an eye over it to see if its still okay with the new roles and experience etc.

Speaking to a couple of guys here there is a sense of 'fk em' but its just not in my nature, you never know who you'll meet again, but i am also not going to roll over, ill want as good a deal as i can get, hopefully a good reference as ive always been pretty fair in the work and not aggravated\butted heads with anyone really, bar the odd last minute deadline\request.

what's worst about this is, even though it called money saving, there's no company wide pay cuts, they are doing cost savings on stuff but that all feels a bit fiddling at the edges, so i think while they need to make some cuts, this does feel a lot like getting rid of people they maybe arent so happy with, and after good reviews and always good standard of audits and system reviews from clients and auditors, being asked to leave is a bit of a hard pill....however if they see a £10k saving by getting external folk in, its a numbers game, and business is business.

Start to talk to a few folk in various local businesses i am chummy with, I've turned my hand to many jobs and am good with my hands\eye for details so you never know.

Trick is not to sit in a onesie in my flat not out looking, have to make yourself noticed smile

Cinema on saturday may cheer me up a bit though.

andy-xr

13,204 posts

203 months

Friday 3rd June 2016
quotequote all
No, it's a chance to do something else, meet new people, find a job that's got more prospects or suits you even better. And the best bit right now is, someone else is paying you to do that. Granted there's a time limit on how long they're prepared to do that for, but realistically, if you've got 6 weeks notice, first week of identifying and prpspecting,s econd week interviewing, third week cutting out the crap and getting all the No Thanks done and out of the way, then you're onto second/third rounds and whittling down who's likely to be making offers.

Looking for a job can be a full time job in itself. You can definitely afford a fk up on your CV, so even if you jump into the first thing you're offered (because you might need a job) you can always backtrack on it after 6 months if something else comes along that you're more suited to.

Rick_1138

Original Poster:

3,656 posts

177 months

Friday 3rd June 2016
quotequote all
The biggest fear is that the jobs market in Aberdeen\shire is not good, and most HSE roles were O&G based, day to day hse jobs are few and far between.

The idea of going on my own as a consultancy type deal is also quite bad, as we are looking at buying a house soon and being a sole trader\consultant isnt seen as good when viewing mortgage possibilities frown

andy-xr

13,204 posts

203 months

Friday 3rd June 2016
quotequote all
Try working in high-tech and being based 200 miles north of the M4 corridor. I know what you're saying

Every role I've had in the last 10 years has been 'the remote guy' and I've consulted as well as worked remotely for companies. I really dont have a need to go into an office, so I probably wont work for an employer who wants me sat at a desk at 8:55 every day. I need a phone, a laptop and usually some wifi, so I can work from anywhere. Last week I worked from 2 taxis and a hotel in the US. There's always ways around things if everyone's committed to making it happen

Incidentally, we just bought a house, my credit's st and I'm self employed, so found an understanding lender (Halifax) and put it in my wife's name
They know who I am in relation to the mortgage and how it's being funded. St James Place gave us really good advice

Edited by andy-xr on Friday 3rd June 12:17

Rick_1138

Original Poster:

3,656 posts

177 months

Friday 3rd June 2016
quotequote all
andy-xr said:
Try working in high-tech and being based 200 miles north of the M4 corridor. I know what you're saying

Every role I've had in the last 10 years has been 'the remote guy' and I've consulted as well as worked remotely for companies. I really dont have a need to go into an office, so I probably wont work for an employer who wants me sat at a desk at 8:55 every day. I need a phone, a laptop and usually some wifi, so I can work from anywhere. Last week I worked from 2 taxis and a hotel in the US. There's always ways around things if everyone's committed to making it happen

Incidentally, we just bought a house, my credit's st and I'm self employed, so found an understanding lender (Halifax) and put it in my wife's name
They know who I am in relation to the mortgage and how it's being funded. St James Place gave us really good advice

Edited by andy-xr on Friday 3rd June 12:17
Thanks i'll keep that in mind re-mortgages etc smile

I am only 34 (in 2 weeks (ace birthday present frown ) so i am not in pickle a couple of the guys are in their 50's who are also facing the chop, so i am lucky in that sense.


ruggedscotty

5,606 posts

208 months

Friday 3rd June 2016
quotequote all
I was part of a team that was developed to remote monitor sites and organise a response if anything should happen - basically keeping an eye on the hard services and if anything went wrong Id escalate anbd organise a response. It took off pretty well and we were monitoring a good number of sites around the world. You would be suprised at just how good we were are saving money - we could access the building controls and make adjustments so became first point of call for office temperatures - that had a significant reduction in costs. We were there 24/7 and well did what we did. Then the finanical crash hit and the business started to shrink.

Kinda sad about the whole thing but as they keep saying its business and yes you could get fixated with doing them over but whats the point, you spent a few years doing a good job built the resume and now off to pastures new to graze.

Crafty_

13,248 posts

199 months

Friday 3rd June 2016
quotequote all
Its never a nice situation, I've been there once and managed to escape it another time, in the long run its worked out for the best.

One assumes that if you are made redundant they'll use a contractor to do the bits requiring qualifications and palm the rest of the work on to remaining staff ?

One thing that I thought of is compliance - its quite a big concern for all sorts of industries, but it strikes me your skills would be applicable? it might help broaden your search.

I assume the O&G industry up there is still in a downturn ?


Rovinghawk

13,300 posts

157 months

Sunday 5th June 2016
quotequote all
Rick_1138 said:
Main question is how will they carry out qhse required systems and standards with no qualified HSE person on site
How much of it is actually required & how much of it actually needs a 'qualified' person?

Rick_1138

Original Poster:

3,656 posts

177 months

Sunday 5th June 2016
quotequote all
Rovinghawk said:
Rick_1138 said:
Main question is how will they carry out qhse required systems and standards with no qualified HSE person on site
How much of it is actually required & how much of it actually needs a 'qualified' person?
Quite a lot, as it needs to be audited and updated by qualified person quite regularly.

Yeah it can be done by contractors and parts of it farmed out to other staff, but many customers don't like that as it shows a lack of not taking qhse seriously (box ticking) and the amount of times job tenders need quite varied and unique qhse input is regular, getting consultants in to do that every other week would be expensive.

Also the whole document system has been ran by me for 5 years, if auditors come in and they get a consultant in for those 2 days, they'll struggle to cover everything with ought knowing where stuff is and how the system works quickly.

Which could lead to poor audits and less work

Also new iso standards come out in a year and that will need third party contractors in for a long period of time and internal staff training, all of which they won't need if I am kept on.


We'll see what the consultation shows up, as I'll go through this stuff as I'm not 100% they actually know all what comes through me day to day.


mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Sunday 5th June 2016
quotequote all
Rovinghawk said:
Rick_1138 said:
Main question is how will they carry out qhse required systems and standards with no qualified HSE person on site
How much of it is actually required & how much of it actually needs a 'qualified' person?
very good question - and in some cases does havign a H+S person mean that others are neglecting it ...

similar question to be asked with some of the 'industrial engineering ' ( posh name for time and motion ) stuff ...

andy-xr

13,204 posts

203 months

Monday 6th June 2016
quotequote all
Rick_1138 said:
Quite a lot, as it needs to be audited and updated by qualified person quite regularly.

Yeah it can be done by contractors and parts of it farmed out to other staff, but many customers don't like that as it shows a lack of not taking qhse seriously (box ticking) and the amount of times job tenders need quite varied and unique qhse input is regular, getting consultants in to do that every other week would be expensive.

Also the whole document system has been ran by me for 5 years, if auditors come in and they get a consultant in for those 2 days, they'll struggle to cover everything with ought knowing where stuff is and how the system works quickly.

Which could lead to poor audits and less work

Also new iso standards come out in a year and that will need third party contractors in for a long period of time and internal staff training, all of which they won't need if I am kept on.


We'll see what the consultation shows up, as I'll go through this stuff as I'm not 100% they actually know all what comes through me day to day.
Gotta let the company do what they think is in it's best interests, job preservation aside that problem is their problem rather than yours.