Possible redundancy - some advice
Discussion
andy-xr said:
Rick_1138 said:
Quite a lot, as it needs to be audited and updated by qualified person quite regularly.
Yeah it can be done by contractors and parts of it farmed out to other staff, but many customers don't like that as it shows a lack of not taking qhse seriously (box ticking) and the amount of times job tenders need quite varied and unique qhse input is regular, getting consultants in to do that every other week would be expensive.
Also the whole document system has been ran by me for 5 years, if auditors come in and they get a consultant in for those 2 days, they'll struggle to cover everything with ought knowing where stuff is and how the system works quickly.
Which could lead to poor audits and less work
Also new iso standards come out in a year and that will need third party contractors in for a long period of time and internal staff training, all of which they won't need if I am kept on.
We'll see what the consultation shows up, as I'll go through this stuff as I'm not 100% they actually know all what comes through me day to day.
Gotta let the company do what they think is in it's best interests, job preservation aside that problem is their problem rather than yours. Yeah it can be done by contractors and parts of it farmed out to other staff, but many customers don't like that as it shows a lack of not taking qhse seriously (box ticking) and the amount of times job tenders need quite varied and unique qhse input is regular, getting consultants in to do that every other week would be expensive.
Also the whole document system has been ran by me for 5 years, if auditors come in and they get a consultant in for those 2 days, they'll struggle to cover everything with ought knowing where stuff is and how the system works quickly.
Which could lead to poor audits and less work
Also new iso standards come out in a year and that will need third party contractors in for a long period of time and internal staff training, all of which they won't need if I am kept on.
We'll see what the consultation shows up, as I'll go through this stuff as I'm not 100% they actually know all what comes through me day to day.
If i am to be made redundant regardless, well thats that.
However if they are palming off my role to others and bringing in external folk to do other parts of my job does this not possibly get into unfair redunandcy\dismissal, as my role is still required by the company, and if i am willing to reduce hours or can show savings with external groups wont be much, then technically they cant. (i realise they can do what they want, but from a legal standpoint, do they not have to prove why i am to be made redundant if my role is still required??)
Just genuine curiosity, i am not one to go all out and start tribunals\ lawyer up etc, lifes too short, but i am interested in how they can make my role 'redundant' when it still has to be carried out.
Consultations in my experience, unless you have a big union behind you, are more of a 'this is what we're doing'
It's a one way street for many companies - go in of course with an open mind, just dont expect the same coming back over the table at you, it's an exercise in futility
Generally each role is somewhere on an xls with a cost against it and if that's showing as 'we could remove that' then I doubt there's much you could say. Not trying to be overly negative, but when I said earlier that you're now the number 1 priority, this sort of stuff can bog you down and cut into the time you have evaluating your options
It's a one way street for many companies - go in of course with an open mind, just dont expect the same coming back over the table at you, it's an exercise in futility
Generally each role is somewhere on an xls with a cost against it and if that's showing as 'we could remove that' then I doubt there's much you could say. Not trying to be overly negative, but when I said earlier that you're now the number 1 priority, this sort of stuff can bog you down and cut into the time you have evaluating your options
andy-xr said:
Consultations in my experience, unless you have a big union behind you, are more of a 'this is what we're doing'
It's a one way street for many companies - go in of course with an open mind, just dont expect the same coming back over the table at you, it's an exercise in futility
Generally each role is somewhere on an xls with a cost against it and if that's showing as 'we could remove that' then I doubt there's much you could say. Not trying to be overly negative, but when I said earlier that you're now the number 1 priority, this sort of stuff can bog you down and cut into the time you have evaluating your options
I am basically expecting what you said above, i know i am not a special snowflake etc, and i am in limbo a bit till tomorrow afternoon (i.e. deffo tatties over the side, or options may be looked at to still be here etc).It's a one way street for many companies - go in of course with an open mind, just dont expect the same coming back over the table at you, it's an exercise in futility
Generally each role is somewhere on an xls with a cost against it and if that's showing as 'we could remove that' then I doubt there's much you could say. Not trying to be overly negative, but when I said earlier that you're now the number 1 priority, this sort of stuff can bog you down and cut into the time you have evaluating your options
However i am just trying to get a handle on what to expect, i.e. is it all a case of they can do what they like, or do i actually have the baility to ask how they can remove my role when its quite important and less useful roles from some other staff members are being kept on (i know for a fact a couple of them are bored at work with little to do at times in these roles).
But the mrs and i have a plan, were sensible and ill take on any job that comes my way, im not going to be a wage snob or anything daft.
Could end up being a great life change.
Rick_1138 said:
However if they are palming off my role to others and bringing in external folk to do other parts of my job does this not possibly get into unfair redunandcy\dismissal, as my role is still required by the company, and if i am willing to reduce hours or can show savings with external groups wont be much, then technically they cant. (i realise they can do what they want, but from a legal standpoint, do they not have to prove why i am to be made redundant if my role is still required??)
Just genuine curiosity, i am not one to go all out and start tribunals\ lawyer up etc, lifes too short, but i am interested in how they can make my role 'redundant' when it still has to be carried out.
because the role is redundant ... Just genuine curiosity, i am not one to go all out and start tribunals\ lawyer up etc, lifes too short, but i am interested in how they can make my role 'redundant' when it still has to be carried out.
typical H+S man attitude strikes ...
mph1977 said:
Rick_1138 said:
However if they are palming off my role to others and bringing in external folk to do other parts of my job does this not possibly get into unfair redunandcy\dismissal, as my role is still required by the company, and if i am willing to reduce hours or can show savings with external groups wont be much, then technically they cant. (i realise they can do what they want, but from a legal standpoint, do they not have to prove why i am to be made redundant if my role is still required??)
Just genuine curiosity, i am not one to go all out and start tribunals\ lawyer up etc, lifes too short, but i am interested in how they can make my role 'redundant' when it still has to be carried out.
because the role is redundant ... Just genuine curiosity, i am not one to go all out and start tribunals\ lawyer up etc, lifes too short, but i am interested in how they can make my role 'redundant' when it still has to be carried out.
typical H+S man attitude strikes ...
Thats all i meant, i wasnt shouting that 'its not fair, woe is me'
I was just seeking some advice about weather or not a role can be made redundant when its still going to be a major part of the business.
However i realise if they want rid of me they can, then hire a 'safety leader' or something similar, doing the same job but with a diff title.
Rick_1138 said:
My role is still required,.
No but seriously, this isnt your decision to make. It might be that tasks within the role are spread out amongst other people, meaning the role isnt there anymore. It's not unfair, but please please, take the company hat off and put yer own onandy-xr said:
No but seriously, this isnt your decision to make. It might be that tasks within the role are spread out amongst other people, meaning the role isnt there anymore. It's not unfair, but please please, take the company hat off and put yer own on
I know, i'm just f
ked off that its all bks then, if my role was so fking important all the time and important to the business then in the blink of an eye it gets palmed off, yet i have to go through this bloody stupid 'consultation' when they could have just told me i was being made redundant 5 days ago.I am just fed up as i am in limbo just now, i have done all i can re- CV, starting to look at other places, but i hate the feeling like i have the plague here, basically certain staff members basically blanking me now, when they were chatty before (all people who i note dont have redundancy risk letters)
I realise i am bringing in emotions into it, but this sitting here having to do work i am being asked for that is for a role being made redundant really leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
Though i know its not malicious and its business but its been handled so poorly (the lead up to this not the redundancy process) by senior managers, its gard to not be a bit annoyed.
What can you control? It's not the decision or what's going to come at you in the consultation but it's definitely your fingers on the Google at Jobsite
O the upside, you've just been paid 5 days extra, there's no harm in you dragging it out as much as you want to while you line up other options. You gotta play the game
I also want to bring you back to this comment you made, just to remember how redundancy can go one of two ways, and you were hoping to pick the calmer version
O the upside, you've just been paid 5 days extra, there's no harm in you dragging it out as much as you want to while you line up other options. You gotta play the game
I also want to bring you back to this comment you made, just to remember how redundancy can go one of two ways, and you were hoping to pick the calmer version
Rick_1138 said:
Speaking to a couple of guys here there is a sense of 'fk em' but its just not in my nature, you never know who you'll meet again, but i am also not going to roll over, ill want as good a deal as i can get, hopefully a good reference as ive always been pretty fair in the work and not aggravated\butted heads with anyone really, bar the odd last minute deadline\request.
k em' but its just not in my nature, you never know who you'll meet again, but i am also not going to roll over, ill want as good a deal as i can get, hopefully a good reference as ive always been pretty fair in the work and not aggravated\butted heads with anyone really, bar the odd last minute deadline\request.Edited by andy-xr on Monday 6th June 16:30
Seriously hes not being a dick - maybe you are hearing someone say something that you really don't like the sound off. Companies really don't have much to hold them back thinking we are protected by some law or other doesn't get you anywhere. Can you take in a union rep or a witness - get as much written down, usually if its affecting you some of the shock announcements can and will scare you enough to put you off of your stride. How much are you due, whats the minimum redundancy payment they can give you. The majority of cases for unfair dismissal are won as the company has not followed procedure, you need to be sure that they do. its set down what is required and that is something that you need to be aware of.
Im coming through it myself - im in the process of making my mind up to either go for VR or try for an alternative job - now that isn't a great place to be when they are laying off shedloads and my experience does not meet in with what they need for the other roles. There are a lot of rules around that aswell - if your getting offered decent money and you go for an alternative role and then find out that you don't like it 3 months down the line then you have lost that redundancy. Also if they are making you redundant is it for any reason relating to you ? if you won the redundancy and were kept on your life would be made very uncomfortable.
Sometimes its best just to think hey that's it on to pastures new and Im not going to get fixated with it all. life can be stty at times and it can deal you a bad card. its up to you to get that card back to the bottom of the pack and move on
Take for example two guys are working one wraps a box and the other stamps it and adds a label and files it, two people working quite the thing. They buy a machine that can wrap it and you find suddenly there is only enough work for one, Or even worse two are wrapping and stamping and labelling, they each load a trolley and move it to dispatch. suddenly they buy a robot trolley and find that this cuts out the walking to the dispatch. they then find that one person can do the work of both so the pay off one... that's how it happens. The role is made redundant not the person - the person is in to do the role. no role no requirement for a person. they don't need to keep the 2nd person - they will pay him off. The interesting things come from how they do that - are the role profiles different ? Does one know how to work the trolley ? if he does how much does it cost to train up the other ? Both are trained, so how to sort those two out ? any had a disciplinary time keeping issues all sorts gets thrown into the equation - its not a nice situation to be in, and it causes a hell of a lot anger and animosity. lots of companies never recover when such things happen.
Im coming through it myself - im in the process of making my mind up to either go for VR or try for an alternative job - now that isn't a great place to be when they are laying off shedloads and my experience does not meet in with what they need for the other roles. There are a lot of rules around that aswell - if your getting offered decent money and you go for an alternative role and then find out that you don't like it 3 months down the line then you have lost that redundancy. Also if they are making you redundant is it for any reason relating to you ? if you won the redundancy and were kept on your life would be made very uncomfortable.
Sometimes its best just to think hey that's it on to pastures new and Im not going to get fixated with it all. life can be s
tty at times and it can deal you a bad card. its up to you to get that card back to the bottom of the pack and move on Take for example two guys are working one wraps a box and the other stamps it and adds a label and files it, two people working quite the thing. They buy a machine that can wrap it and you find suddenly there is only enough work for one, Or even worse two are wrapping and stamping and labelling, they each load a trolley and move it to dispatch. suddenly they buy a robot trolley and find that this cuts out the walking to the dispatch. they then find that one person can do the work of both so the pay off one... that's how it happens. The role is made redundant not the person - the person is in to do the role. no role no requirement for a person. they don't need to keep the 2nd person - they will pay him off. The interesting things come from how they do that - are the role profiles different ? Does one know how to work the trolley ? if he does how much does it cost to train up the other ? Both are trained, so how to sort those two out ? any had a disciplinary time keeping issues all sorts gets thrown into the equation - its not a nice situation to be in, and it causes a hell of a lot anger and animosity. lots of companies never recover when such things happen.
ruggedscotty said:
Seriously hes not being a dick - maybe you are hearing someone say something that you really don't like the sound off. Companies really don't have much to hold them back thinking we are protected by some law or other doesn't get you anywhere. Can you take in a union rep or a witness - get as much written down, usually if its affecting you some of the shock announcements can and will scare you enough to put you off of your stride. How much are you due, whats the minimum redundancy payment they can give you. The majority of cases for unfair dismissal are won as the company has not followed procedure, you need to be sure that they do. its set down what is required and that is something that you need to be aware of.
Im coming through it myself - im in the process of making my mind up to either go for VR or try for an alternative job - now that isn't a great place to be when they are laying off shedloads and my experience does not meet in with what they need for the other roles. There are a lot of rules around that aswell - if your getting offered decent money and you go for an alternative role and then find out that you don't like it 3 months down the line then you have lost that redundancy. Also if they are making you redundant is it for any reason relating to you ? if you won the redundancy and were kept on your life would be made very uncomfortable.
Sometimes its best just to think hey that's it on to pastures new and Im not going to get fixated with it all. life can be stty at times and it can deal you a bad card. its up to you to get that card back to the bottom of the pack and move on
Take for example two guys are working one wraps a box and the other stamps it and adds a label and files it, two people working quite the thing. They buy a machine that can wrap it and you find suddenly there is only enough work for one, Or even worse two are wrapping and stamping and labelling, they each load a trolley and move it to dispatch. suddenly they buy a robot trolley and find that this cuts out the walking to the dispatch. they then find that one person can do the work of both so the pay off one... that's how it happens. The role is made redundant not the person - the person is in to do the role. no role no requirement for a person. they don't need to keep the 2nd person - they will pay him off. The interesting things come from how they do that - are the role profiles different ? Does one know how to work the trolley ? if he does how much does it cost to train up the other ? Both are trained, so how to sort those two out ? any had a disciplinary time keeping issues all sorts gets thrown into the equation - its not a nice situation to be in, and it causes a hell of a lot anger and animosity. lots of companies never recover when such things happen.
The point about role being redundant i didnt have an issue with (its not grat, but i realise how it works)Im coming through it myself - im in the process of making my mind up to either go for VR or try for an alternative job - now that isn't a great place to be when they are laying off shedloads and my experience does not meet in with what they need for the other roles. There are a lot of rules around that aswell - if your getting offered decent money and you go for an alternative role and then find out that you don't like it 3 months down the line then you have lost that redundancy. Also if they are making you redundant is it for any reason relating to you ? if you won the redundancy and were kept on your life would be made very uncomfortable.
Sometimes its best just to think hey that's it on to pastures new and Im not going to get fixated with it all. life can be s
tty at times and it can deal you a bad card. its up to you to get that card back to the bottom of the pack and move on Take for example two guys are working one wraps a box and the other stamps it and adds a label and files it, two people working quite the thing. They buy a machine that can wrap it and you find suddenly there is only enough work for one, Or even worse two are wrapping and stamping and labelling, they each load a trolley and move it to dispatch. suddenly they buy a robot trolley and find that this cuts out the walking to the dispatch. they then find that one person can do the work of both so the pay off one... that's how it happens. The role is made redundant not the person - the person is in to do the role. no role no requirement for a person. they don't need to keep the 2nd person - they will pay him off. The interesting things come from how they do that - are the role profiles different ? Does one know how to work the trolley ? if he does how much does it cost to train up the other ? Both are trained, so how to sort those two out ? any had a disciplinary time keeping issues all sorts gets thrown into the equation - its not a nice situation to be in, and it causes a hell of a lot anger and animosity. lots of companies never recover when such things happen.
It was more the line about 'Typical H&S man attitude'. Its got nothing to do with my job role being a hse person, its more out of the blue there was the possibilities of redundancy, i have my consultation tomorrow regarding if i will actually be made redundant or if my role can be reviewed etc, I was asking for some tips on what to ask etc in the interview and i was getting a single line response making out that i am being a bit thick, then that was turned into me having an attitude problem because all hse people have an attitude.
I was only looking for help, i'm a bit stressed out so was being a bit shouty as i cant talk about it anywhere else, when the company is making cuts by making people redundant due to economic slowdown, but with no other cost cutting measures to other staff, i.e. pay cuts.
EDIT: Apologies for getting a bit shouty, just a bit stretched out with it.
Rick_1138 said:
It was more the line about 'Typical H&S man attitude'.
Rare as it is for MPH & me to agree- H&S has gone overboard in the last few years & desperately needs pruning back.A certain amount of H&S is necessary, much of it is box-ticking BS & empire-building.
It would appear that your company has a similar mindset & you're being pruned. Harsh but possibly true.
Rovinghawk said:
Rick_1138 said:
It was more the line about 'Typical H&S man attitude'.
Rare as it is for MPH & me to agree- H&S has gone overboard in the last few years & desperately needs pruning back.A certain amount of H&S is necessary, much of it is box-ticking BS & empire-building.
It would appear that your company has a similar mindset & you're being pruned. Harsh but possibly true.
the fundamental purpose of H+S is to save the business money, by reducing lost time, morbidity and mortality among the workforce and other legitimate users of the service / premises and in doing so avoiding fines and compo payouts ...
mph1977 said:
Rovinghawk said:
Rick_1138 said:
It was more the line about 'Typical H&S man attitude'.
Rare as it is for MPH & me to agree- H&S has gone overboard in the last few years & desperately needs pruning back.A certain amount of H&S is necessary, much of it is box-ticking BS & empire-building.
It would appear that your company has a similar mindset & you're being pruned. Harsh but possibly true.
the fundamental purpose of H+S is to save the business money, by reducing lost time, morbidity and mortality among the workforce and other legitimate users of the service / premises and in doing so avoiding fines and compo payouts ...
Aye i know, we QHSE people are all a waste of time 
(sadly too many folk in these roles are jobsworths and ruin it for the rest of us).
The company has to make cuts, we are seperate from O&G but still in the sector, but a few circumstances has resulted in the company having issues, not linked specifically to oil price.
My consultation is this afternoon so i will see where we are a bit, i have questions to ask (mostly stuff that gov websites tell you to ask, like why redundancies, what is process\timeline, references etc.
Hopefully this will clear the waters a bit and ill have a better idea if its deffo out the door or it really is just a review at this stage of who is to go.
CV' has been updated and going to speak to agencies etc this week, was mainly holding off to see how this meeting goes.
(sadly too many folk in these roles are jobsworths and ruin it for the rest of us).The company has to make cuts, we are seperate from O&G but still in the sector, but a few circumstances has resulted in the company having issues, not linked specifically to oil price.
My consultation is this afternoon so i will see where we are a bit, i have questions to ask (mostly stuff that gov websites tell you to ask, like why redundancies, what is process\timeline, references etc.
Hopefully this will clear the waters a bit and ill have a better idea if its deffo out the door or it really is just a review at this stage of who is to go.
CV' has been updated and going to speak to agencies etc this week, was mainly holding off to see how this meeting goes.
Its an uncomfortable time but its not the end of the world... people do get paid off and move on no job these days is for life. and you have to see that. accept that and move on.
Unions try to do the best they can but in this environment its look out for yourself. every recession is the same, they cut the non essentials and revert to what they can get away with, our department operated 24/7 so we turned out o be useful for arranging works and doing all sorts of added value work, but as engineers maybe we were not so great at shouting it out like a lot of other people do - self promotion doesnt do any harm. As our roles were behind the scenes and what we did usually adverted disasters then that meant that we avoided any major impacting event from developing into an impacting situation. Business went on and that was probably where we fell down. not enough were aware of what was going on behind the scenes. the cash machines still worked the till payments went through the computers all hummed away without any cause for concern.
Cutting costs it can be seen that they could save costs by absorbing this function into another function. So thats what they are doing. Just need to wait and see if they suddenly discover the benefits that they had once we are away.
Unions try to do the best they can but in this environment its look out for yourself. every recession is the same, they cut the non essentials and revert to what they can get away with, our department operated 24/7 so we turned out o be useful for arranging works and doing all sorts of added value work, but as engineers maybe we were not so great at shouting it out like a lot of other people do - self promotion doesnt do any harm. As our roles were behind the scenes and what we did usually adverted disasters then that meant that we avoided any major impacting event from developing into an impacting situation. Business went on and that was probably where we fell down. not enough were aware of what was going on behind the scenes. the cash machines still worked the till payments went through the computers all hummed away without any cause for concern.
Cutting costs it can be seen that they could save costs by absorbing this function into another function. So thats what they are doing. Just need to wait and see if they suddenly discover the benefits that they had once we are away.
The meeting went as well as expected.
All very polite and easy going. Covered all the basic facts about why my role was chosen as possible redundancy, basically my role can be handed out to external consultants for considerably cheaper than my salary, which is fair enough.
However talking about my role and duties, and the upcoming new ISO standards and their implementation, as well as being on site\phone at all times (consultancies may not help on a weekend etc), they were interested in me offering a shorter week.
However they are looking more at 3 days a week which would be a significant pay cut) but i could do work for other companies.
The issue with this is i have never been a self employed person, and that opens up a rather different ball game, with qualifications, knowledge, pay\tax, liabilities and being responsible for other sites HSE could be bad if i do something wrong and am classed as responsible for something happening on site or not being checked properly etc.
So i have a lot to think about, as i dont want to be rushed into becoming like a sole trader and find its really not for me etc.
All very polite and easy going. Covered all the basic facts about why my role was chosen as possible redundancy, basically my role can be handed out to external consultants for considerably cheaper than my salary, which is fair enough.
However talking about my role and duties, and the upcoming new ISO standards and their implementation, as well as being on site\phone at all times (consultancies may not help on a weekend etc), they were interested in me offering a shorter week.
However they are looking more at 3 days a week which would be a significant pay cut) but i could do work for other companies.
The issue with this is i have never been a self employed person, and that opens up a rather different ball game, with qualifications, knowledge, pay\tax, liabilities and being responsible for other sites HSE could be bad if i do something wrong and am classed as responsible for something happening on site or not being checked properly etc.
So i have a lot to think about, as i dont want to be rushed into becoming like a sole trader and find its really not for me etc.
Rick_1138 said:
The issue with this is i have never been a self employed person, and that opens up a rather different ball game, with qualifications, knowledge, pay\tax, liabilities and being responsible for other sites HSE could be bad if i do something wrong and am classed as responsible for something happening on site or not being checked properly etc.
Sounds like a great way to start contracting! Either set up an Ltd and buy professional indemnity insurance or work through an umbrella company. I have my own limited company.fido said:
Rick_1138 said:
The issue with this is i have never been a self employed person, and that opens up a rather different ball game, with qualifications, knowledge, pay\tax, liabilities and being responsible for other sites HSE could be bad if i do something wrong and am classed as responsible for something happening on site or not being checked properly etc.
Sounds like a great way to start contracting! Either set up an Ltd and buy professional indemnity insurance or work through an umbrella company. I have my own limited company.The other thing is it depends on if my current place are offering 3 days a week as an employee with ability to do other sites HSE on the 2 days i dont work, or if they want me as a contractor doing the odd 3 days each couple of weeks, as if thats the case, then id probably stick with a new job and a 5 day a week employee.
Need to read up a lot and see what's involved.
fido said:
Sounds like a great way to start contracting! Either set up an Ltd and buy professional indemnity insurance or work through an umbrella company. I have my own limited company.
However, would he then kiss goodbye to any possible redundancy payment...? If he worked for some time at 3 days per week, then eventually left.Rick_1138 said:
Aye i know, we QHSE people are all a waste of time (sadly too many folk in these roles are jobsworths and ruin it for the rest of us).
most of the genuine Safety Practitioners i've happened across tend to work in consultancy or for the emergency services/ public sector ( e.g. NHS trusts or LAs - but that is becasue ifthe size + risk profile and i nthe NHS it often includes other security / counter fraud stuff as well) ... (sadly too many folk in these roles are jobsworths and ruin it for the rest of us).those who work in the private sector tend to be regional or national roles rather than the NEBOSH holder 'local' safety person who in some cases has been promoted out of the way from a team leader or FLM / supervisor role ...
it's a bit like Quality improvement - there's two ways of doing it -impose it with an external expert or embed it into the day to day practice of the organisations ...
(and before peopel say what aobut 6 sigma and black belts - the work is done by the embedded , the black belts are there to adivse )
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