Starting work on time?
Discussion
Chainsaw Rebuild said:
Pothole said:
21TonyK said:
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The work ethic is strong'ish but life centres around what's going on outside of work not inside.
As it should, surely?The work ethic is strong'ish but life centres around what's going on outside of work not inside.
Also don't forget that if you are draconian you will turn them against you and then your sunk.
Good luck with it :-)
You kind of get a full days work finally out of them on Wednesday once the hangover dies down, for them to not give a s
t again as its now Thursday and tomorrow is piss up day and they just talk about what they are doing for the weekend and it revolves around...Being smashed off face for as long as possible...
I have never seen the fascination of this and thats probably due to the work I do and the industry Im in that we can't do this and expect to keep our jobs if we come in on a Monday looking like death.
mph1977 said:
Granfondo said:
I cannot believe that anyone can argue that starting at 8 and finishing at 2 means starting at 8.10 and finishing at 1.50.
that is not what is being discussed though is it ... it's the definition of starting and finishing - in the building and clocked in vs at your 'workstation'...
Granfondo said:
I cannot believe that anyone can argue that starting at 8 and finishing at 2 means starting at 8.10 and finishing at 1.50.
Or would it be ok for the employer who said they would pay £8 ph to pay £7.90 ?
And we all know the answer to that!
If your getting paid from 8 until 2 it's unreasonable to expect people to be there outside of those times. If the employer must start at 8 then pay them from 7.45.Or would it be ok for the employer who said they would pay £8 ph to pay £7.90 ?
And we all know the answer to that!
Simple.
MarshPhantom said:
Granfondo said:
I cannot believe that anyone can argue that starting at 8 and finishing at 2 means starting at 8.10 and finishing at 1.50.
Or would it be ok for the employer who said they would pay £8 ph to pay £7.90 ?
And we all know the answer to that!
If your getting paid from 8 until 2 it's unreasonable to expect people to be there outside of those times. If the employer must start at 8 then pay them from 7.45.Or would it be ok for the employer who said they would pay £8 ph to pay £7.90 ?
And we all know the answer to that!
Simple.
I used to work in a store many years back and it was common to close at 6pm but not be out before 6.30pm because of cashing up and odds and sods and a security check.
Never got paid for any of it which looking back was a total pisstake, but at the time I was grateful for the job so didn't think much of it, which is probably what a lot of employers count on.
Never got paid for any of it which looking back was a total pisstake, but at the time I was grateful for the job so didn't think much of it, which is probably what a lot of employers count on.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I used to work in a store many years back and it was common to close at 6pm but not be out before 6.30pm because of cashing up and odds and sods and a security check.
Never got paid for any of it which looking back was a total pisstake, but at the time I was grateful for the job so didn't think much of it, which is probably what a lot of employers count on.
Me too, getting float ready and cashing up / locking up was all done in your time. Never got paid for any of it which looking back was a total pisstake, but at the time I was grateful for the job so didn't think much of it, which is probably what a lot of employers count on.
Type R Tom said:
Me too, getting float ready and cashing up / locking up was all done in your time.
Me too - but I managed to get the cashing up done, till rolls changed and shop locked up within 5 mins of closing. Similarly opening up the shop I managed to sort within a few minutes. I taught my staff to be quick too.We didn't have official coffee breaks but when the shop was quiet there was time to make coffee, have a cigarette, read newspaper etc.
It seems very common that people are expected to work for free. I'm not saying B is right given they are taking time at the end of the day but I don't think it's unreasonable if the employee is ready to work at 8 that they finish slightly early so that they leave on time. You don't like it if they start working at 8:10 and finish at 13:50 as that is wasting your time but somehow it's ok to waste their time if they start working at bang on 8 and finish bang on 2 with 10 minutes either side to get changed.
Obviously those who take the piss shouldn't be there but I don't see it as unreasonable for people not to want to work (or be at work) when they don't get paid. Is it unreasonable to expect to finish on time if you started on time?
Obviously those who take the piss shouldn't be there but I don't see it as unreasonable for people not to want to work (or be at work) when they don't get paid. Is it unreasonable to expect to finish on time if you started on time?
I can see this argument from both sides and I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to it. Unless you have it specifically defined in their contract then it's always going to be open to interpretation. I'm firmly in the minority camp of being at/in the work location/premises at my contracted start time and then would expect to be leaving same at my contracted finish time, or at least be paid up to the time I leave to the last quarter hour. You could argue that the extra 5 mins at the start and end is neither here nor there but without it being defined in the contract you have zero chance of enforcing it.
I actually faced a similar dilemma myself as a contractor a few years ago whilst doing some driving work for Next. Standard practice with vocational driving work is to be on site at your agreed start time (say 6am) and charge from that point until the time you are walking out of the building to your car, to the last quarter hour. Next don't work like this. They expect you to be leaving their site in their truck AT 6am, ie. they expect you to be on site 20-30 mins prior to your agreed start time so you can collect the paperwork, do your vehicle checks, hitch up to your trailer and be driving out of the gate at 6am on the dot. I said fine, no problem, but the extra time will be billed as I don't work for free. Needless to say this didn't go down with them too well and we weren't able to come a mutually beneficial arrangement on the matter so we went our separate ways and I sourced work elsewhere.
Using that as an example, to those of you that say you should be in and ready to start work at your workstation AT your contracted start time, would you still say the same if the uniform donning took 10 mins, walk to workstation at other end of site took 10 mins and a further 10 mins to prep your equipment before starting work? ie. be in work for 0730 to start at 0800 and then finish at 1400 and finally leave site at 1430 - an extra 5 hours per week unpaid? Still happy? If not, where do you draw the line?
I actually faced a similar dilemma myself as a contractor a few years ago whilst doing some driving work for Next. Standard practice with vocational driving work is to be on site at your agreed start time (say 6am) and charge from that point until the time you are walking out of the building to your car, to the last quarter hour. Next don't work like this. They expect you to be leaving their site in their truck AT 6am, ie. they expect you to be on site 20-30 mins prior to your agreed start time so you can collect the paperwork, do your vehicle checks, hitch up to your trailer and be driving out of the gate at 6am on the dot. I said fine, no problem, but the extra time will be billed as I don't work for free. Needless to say this didn't go down with them too well and we weren't able to come a mutually beneficial arrangement on the matter so we went our separate ways and I sourced work elsewhere.
Using that as an example, to those of you that say you should be in and ready to start work at your workstation AT your contracted start time, would you still say the same if the uniform donning took 10 mins, walk to workstation at other end of site took 10 mins and a further 10 mins to prep your equipment before starting work? ie. be in work for 0730 to start at 0800 and then finish at 1400 and finally leave site at 1430 - an extra 5 hours per week unpaid? Still happy? If not, where do you draw the line?
Edited by All that jazz on Tuesday 7th June 08:46
I can't believe that adults who presumably need and want a job are quibbling over ten minutes at the start and end of a shift. If they had any self-motivation and wanted to progress in life, sucking up 10 or 20 minutes a day is a good place to start.
For me it is black and white, you are on shift and working from 8-2, not 8:10 - 1:50. If you don't want to do that or aren't willing to then find another job. Talk of lowering morale can work both ways, the people actually working the full shift, presumably the more committed individuals, can become dispondent and think "well if they aren't working a full shift, why should i?".
For me it is black and white, you are on shift and working from 8-2, not 8:10 - 1:50. If you don't want to do that or aren't willing to then find another job. Talk of lowering morale can work both ways, the people actually working the full shift, presumably the more committed individuals, can become dispondent and think "well if they aren't working a full shift, why should i?".
thainy77 said:
I can't believe that adults who presumably need and want a job are quibbling over ten minutes at the start and end of a shift. If they had any self-motivation and wanted to progress in life, sucking up 10 or 20 minutes a day is a good place to start.
For me it is black and white, you are on shift and working from 8-2, not 8:10 - 1:50. If you don't want to do that or aren't willing to then find another job. Talk of lowering morale can work both ways, the people actually working the full shift, presumably the more committed individuals, can become dispondent and think "well if they aren't working a full shift, why should i?".
Problem is you’re often talking about people who are earning min wage; earning £15k a year and you probably need every penny you can get. Earning £25k and above I think people are maybe more willing to give a little.For me it is black and white, you are on shift and working from 8-2, not 8:10 - 1:50. If you don't want to do that or aren't willing to then find another job. Talk of lowering morale can work both ways, the people actually working the full shift, presumably the more committed individuals, can become dispondent and think "well if they aren't working a full shift, why should i?".
Type R Tom said:
Problem is you’re often talking about people who are earning min wage; earning £15k a year and you probably need every penny you can get. Earning £25k and above I think people are maybe more willing to give a little.
Exactly my point, if you need every penny you can get put a little extra time in, nobody moved up the ladder by bhing and moaning about the time it takes to get changed before or after a shift. Who would be the more likely candidate for a promotion? it's just laziness in my opinion.thainy77 said:
Type R Tom said:
Problem is you’re often talking about people who are earning min wage; earning £15k a year and you probably need every penny you can get. Earning £25k and above I think people are maybe more willing to give a little.
Exactly my point, if you need every penny you can get put a little extra time in, nobody moved up the ladder by bhing and moaning about the time it takes to get changed before or after a shift. Who would be the more likely candidate for a promotion? it's just laziness in my opinion.Type R Tom said:
Maybe but I can't imagine there are many opportunities for promotion when part time, 0 hours etc. Certainly wasn’t when I did my time as a student in low paid jobs.
There are always opportunites that may not be immediately obvious. Good references, the possibility that someone else from the current job will move on to bigger and better things and remember the individual that always worked hard with no complaints.There are zero benefits to sitting around moaning about 20 minutes a day.
thainy77 said:
There are always opportunites that may not be immediately obvious. Good references, the possibility that someone else from the current job will move on to bigger and better things and remember the individual that always worked hard with no complaints.
There are zero benefits to sitting around moaning about 20 minutes a day.
True but out of interest, how much time per day do you feel is acceptable to "work" unpaid? Not including commuting, self employed, breaks etc. There are zero benefits to sitting around moaning about 20 minutes a day.
Type R Tom said:
True but out of interest, how much time per day do you feel is acceptable to "work" unpaid? Not including commuting, self employed, breaks etc.
It's a difficult question to answer and it does depend on the role as you mentioned above but for this subject i don't see 20 minutes as unreasonable. In previous managerial roles i have held 10-15 hours a week was relatively common but i always had the current end goal in sight.
thainy77 said:
It's a difficult question to answer and it does depend on the role as you mentioned above but for this subject i don't see 20 minutes as unreasonable.
In previous managerial roles i have held 10-15 hours a week was relatively common but i always had the current end goal in sight.
And that is why you have a Lambo in your garage and I suspect they will never get close to owning anything near that. IT's an awful attitude they have adopted and one that will never see you progress.In previous managerial roles i have held 10-15 hours a week was relatively common but i always had the current end goal in sight.
I cannot believe there are some even defending this. They are being asked to put on a chef's uniform, I can't imagine this even takes 10 minutes! I see that as no more hassle than me having to put on a suit in the morning, and making myself look presentable with the only difference being I do it at home and they do it at work.
It's the same as those in an office who start shutting down their computers at 16.50 when they finish at 17.00 and wonder why they will still be doing admin until they are 65.
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