Starting work on time?
Discussion
Type R Tom said:
thainy77 said:
There are always opportunites that may not be immediately obvious. Good references, the possibility that someone else from the current job will move on to bigger and better things and remember the individual that always worked hard with no complaints.
There are zero benefits to sitting around moaning about 20 minutes a day.
True but out of interest, how much time per day do you feel is acceptable to "work" unpaid? Not including commuting, self employed, breaks etc. There are zero benefits to sitting around moaning about 20 minutes a day.
Why?
Cause he does his 9-5 and b
hes and moans about having to work 'unpaid time' even if a project is due, he's out of the door at 5pm... he thinks we were all mugs for doing an extra hour here and an hour there...However the rest of us are now on way way more than he is, we have all been promoted several times in our respective fields, mainly been noted for going beyond what was needed.
He still b
hes... we remind that he's been doing it for 6-7 years now and look how far we have progressed from doing that bit extra... we get called mugs, end of story... He still does not get it and never will.
Du1point8 said:
In my group of friends, we have someone that has the mentality of the people B that the OP mentions... however he is not your average paid member of staff, he was on £35k circa 6-7 years ago, he's on max of £40k now.
Why?
Cause he does his 9-5 and bhes and moans about having to work 'unpaid time' even if a project is due, he's out of the door at 5pm... he thinks we were all mugs for doing an extra hour here and an hour there...
However the rest of us are now on way way more than he is, we have all been promoted several times in our respective fields, mainly been noted for going beyond what was needed.
He still bhes... we remind that he's been doing it for 6-7 years now and look how far we have progressed from doing that bit extra... we get called mugs, end of story...
He still does not get it and never will.
Exactly, who's the mug!Why?
Cause he does his 9-5 and b
hes and moans about having to work 'unpaid time' even if a project is due, he's out of the door at 5pm... he thinks we were all mugs for doing an extra hour here and an hour there...However the rest of us are now on way way more than he is, we have all been promoted several times in our respective fields, mainly been noted for going beyond what was needed.
He still b
hes... we remind that he's been doing it for 6-7 years now and look how far we have progressed from doing that bit extra... we get called mugs, end of story... He still does not get it and never will.
Du1point8 said:
Type R Tom said:
thainy77 said:
There are always opportunites that may not be immediately obvious. Good references, the possibility that someone else from the current job will move on to bigger and better things and remember the individual that always worked hard with no complaints.
There are zero benefits to sitting around moaning about 20 minutes a day.
True but out of interest, how much time per day do you feel is acceptable to "work" unpaid? Not including commuting, self employed, breaks etc. There are zero benefits to sitting around moaning about 20 minutes a day.
Why?
Cause he does his 9-5 and b
hes and moans about having to work 'unpaid time' even if a project is due, he's out of the door at 5pm... he thinks we were all mugs for doing an extra hour here and an hour there...However the rest of us are now on way way more than he is, we have all been promoted several times in our respective fields, mainly been noted for going beyond what was needed.
He still b
hes... we remind that he's been doing it for 6-7 years now and look how far we have progressed from doing that bit extra... we get called mugs, end of story... He still does not get it and never will.
thainy77 said:
I can't believe that adults who presumably need and want a job are quibbling over ten minutes at the start and end of a shift. If they had any self-motivation and wanted to progress in life, sucking up 10 or 20 minutes a day is a good place to start.
But you can believe (adult) employers who can't suck up 10 or 20 minutes a day when not doing so is a good place to start losing their 'most valuable resource'? As Gloria Estefan said, it cuts both ways. I've worked in call centre type roles for many years and I've been on both sides of this. I've pushed very hard when in management roles to get IT in place that doesn't take 10 or 15 minutes to get a workstation ready to operate, but senior management appear to generally take your attitude that said setting up time should be unpaid as operators need to be available to take their first call at their shift start time. Approximately 80 hours a year unpaid? FTS!Edited by Pothole on Tuesday 7th June 10:34
All that jazz said:
It's not as black and white as you're trying to make out. Career ladder progression is probably decided more on whether or not your face fits rather than how skilled you are at what you do, particularly in the public sector. Staying back unpaid to finish projects isn't some auto-win button for career progression; if your face doesn't fit it's a complete waste of your time (and money).
I'll quote this as you deleted your previous post 
.As above, your face usually fits because your work ethic is good.
You're correct it isn't an auto-win but what are the negatives job wise of putting yourself out there? If your face doesn't fit because of judgements others are making then change job to find one that ties in with your personality rather than stay and moan about it.
21TonyK said:
Completely agree, that's how is SHOULD be. And, in the private sector its how it works.
Unfortunately this is public sector, unions, bleeding hearts and very soft management. Plus the staff are largely not kitchen professionals doing fairly basic tasks doing it for the money not as a career. The work ethic is strong'ish but life centres around what's going on outside of work not inside.
You're right about the team building, it's the way forward.
Trying to impose a private sector approach on a public sector team is always going to be somewhat of an uphill struggle!Unfortunately this is public sector, unions, bleeding hearts and very soft management. Plus the staff are largely not kitchen professionals doing fairly basic tasks doing it for the money not as a career. The work ethic is strong'ish but life centres around what's going on outside of work not inside.
You're right about the team building, it's the way forward.
If many of these 'B' people are long serving there, or at similar places, then that attitude can be quite ingrained. Also it could be a reflection of the general management ethos of the organisation as a whole (yourself excluded seemingly).
As you say, they are not 'professionals', it is simply a job for them. Maybe they need a few fresh incentives to engage them into the work ethic a bit more - some may be ground down by the daily boredom/lack of management approval/challenging tasks?
Given they have to change at work and leave the uniform at work, it is reasonable to ask them to arrive 10 minutes before 8 and be changed and ready to go at 8 without exception but then giving them those 10 minutes back at the end of the shift to be ready to go for 2. Write this into the contract and penalise those who turn up at 8 and then start work/smoke/chat.
The 'A' people will be annoyed that the 'B' people don't get challenged by not following the unwritten rule because they are more conscientious. If it is not clearly written down and understood, it will be open to interpretation by the individuals and they will work to their own rules.
Also there will always be a select few who like to be the 'outsiders' just to prove a point that they are not like the 'A' people. Much like at school when the gang of cool people would still be behind the bike shed when the lesson bell went when the squares were already at their desk with their pencil cases open and ready to learn.
Formalise the expectations and stick to penalising those who break them, this will pacify the 'A' people who are getting annoyed at the 'B' people taking the p*ss and getting away with it, hopefully helping to further incentivise and retain them and either give the troublesome 'B' that kick into touch they need or getting them out the door via formal steps or their own frustration at your annoying iron fist of common sense.
Life should always be centred around what happens outside of work, whether you have the incentive to strive for more or simply exist in a job to pay the bill, but it doesn't mean you are any less of an employee, surely? A full automated robot future is a few years off yet
Pothole said:
ut you can believe (adult) employers who can't suck up 10 or 202 minutes a day when not doing so is a good place to start losing their 'most valuable resource'? As Gloria Estefan said, it cuts both ways. I've worked in call centre type roles for many years and I've been on both sides of this. I've pushed very hard when in management roles to get IT in place that doesn't take 10 or 15 minutes to get a workstation ready to operate, but senior management appear to generally take your attitude that said setting up time should be unpaid as operators need to be available to take their first call at their shift start time. Approximately 80 hours a year unpaid? FTS!
Their most valuable resources are not typically the ones bhing about 20 minutes a day, i can't understand this mentality. And typicaly the people that do put the time in receive other perks as their contribution is recognized, such as finishing early every now and then or leniancy in other areas so yes it does cut both ways.It's a narrow minded view point, people don't tend to see the bigger picture.
My hours in my last job where 9 - 5.30.
I started out by being a good employee and arriving at 8.45 and leaving at 5.45. Gradually my managers started wanting even more from me, they wanted me to stay often for hours on end after 5.30. I Was happy to do this if there was a deadline or if someone needed help. I never got a penny in overtime, never got a bonus and never got and lieu time. Eventually it progressed to the point where I was leaving the office at 1am on deadline days (once a month) and no matter how much the staff on the same level as me complained that the managers needed to get their act together and sort out the laziness so we didn't have to stay so late, nothing was done about it.
Staying until 1am was totally unreasonable, there was no need for it, all that needed to happen was people needed to buckle down and do their work during the day. I remember once I was going on holiday on the Thursday and the guy who I was working with knew that. I was in that office until about 10pm every night that week finishing off work that he supplied to me late. (I was a graphic designer so last in the chain). I was back in at 9am the next day to start all over again. The Wednesday night I saw 2am on the clock before the final page was sent off to print and then I finally got to go home and go on holiday.
You can all moan and complain about not wanting to work an extra 10 minutes. You can complain about people who don't understand why its good to work for a few extra minutes. But I for one made it a point in my next job to turn up at 8.55 and leave at 5.30. There was no way I was giving away any more of my limited lifetime for working overtime if it wasn't paid.
I started out by being a good employee and arriving at 8.45 and leaving at 5.45. Gradually my managers started wanting even more from me, they wanted me to stay often for hours on end after 5.30. I Was happy to do this if there was a deadline or if someone needed help. I never got a penny in overtime, never got a bonus and never got and lieu time. Eventually it progressed to the point where I was leaving the office at 1am on deadline days (once a month) and no matter how much the staff on the same level as me complained that the managers needed to get their act together and sort out the laziness so we didn't have to stay so late, nothing was done about it.
Staying until 1am was totally unreasonable, there was no need for it, all that needed to happen was people needed to buckle down and do their work during the day. I remember once I was going on holiday on the Thursday and the guy who I was working with knew that. I was in that office until about 10pm every night that week finishing off work that he supplied to me late. (I was a graphic designer so last in the chain). I was back in at 9am the next day to start all over again. The Wednesday night I saw 2am on the clock before the final page was sent off to print and then I finally got to go home and go on holiday.
You can all moan and complain about not wanting to work an extra 10 minutes. You can complain about people who don't understand why its good to work for a few extra minutes. But I for one made it a point in my next job to turn up at 8.55 and leave at 5.30. There was no way I was giving away any more of my limited lifetime for working overtime if it wasn't paid.
thainy77 said:
Pothole said:
ut you can believe (adult) employers who can't suck up 10 or 202 minutes a day when not doing so is a good place to start losing their 'most valuable resource'? As Gloria Estefan said, it cuts both ways. I've worked in call centre type roles for many years and I've been on both sides of this. I've pushed very hard when in management roles to get IT in place that doesn't take 10 or 15 minutes to get a workstation ready to operate, but senior management appear to generally take your attitude that said setting up time should be unpaid as operators need to be available to take their first call at their shift start time. Approximately 80 hours a year unpaid? FTS!
Their most valuable resources are not typically the ones bhing about 20 minutes a day, i can't understand this mentality. And typicaly the people that do put the time in receive other perks as their contribution is recognized, such as finishing early every now and then or leniancy in other areas so yes it does cut both ways.It's a narrow minded view point, people don't tend to see the bigger picture.
Tell me EXACTLY why ANYONE should be EXPECTED to do 80 hours of unpaid work per year? I doubt very much whether the OP's scenario includes a glittering career path or much opportunity for "perks" either, but perhaps he can enlighten us.
ashleyman said:
My hours in my last job where 9 - 5.30.
I started out by being a good employee and arriving at 8.45 and leaving at 5.45. Gradually my managers started wanting even more from me, they wanted me to stay often for hours on end after 5.30. I Was happy to do this if there was a deadline or if someone needed help. I never got a penny in overtime, never got a bonus and never got and lieu time. Eventually it progressed to the point where I was leaving the office at 1am on deadline days (once a month) and no matter how much the staff on the same level as me complained that the managers needed to get their act together and sort out the laziness so we didn't have to stay so late, nothing was done about it.
Staying until 1am was totally unreasonable, there was no need for it, all that needed to happen was people needed to buckle down and do their work during the day. I remember once I was going on holiday on the Thursday and the guy who I was working with knew that. I was in that office until about 10pm every night that week finishing off work that he supplied to me late. (I was a graphic designer so last in the chain). I was back in at 9am the next day to start all over again. The Wednesday night I saw 2am on the clock before the final page was sent off to print and then I finally got to go home and go on holiday.
You can all moan and complain about not wanting to work an extra 10 minutes. You can complain about people who don't understand why its good to work for a few extra minutes. But I for one made it a point in my next job to turn up at 8.55 and leave at 5.30. There was no way I was giving away any more of my limited lifetime for working overtime if it wasn't paid.
Sorry dude... you were the mug on that one.I started out by being a good employee and arriving at 8.45 and leaving at 5.45. Gradually my managers started wanting even more from me, they wanted me to stay often for hours on end after 5.30. I Was happy to do this if there was a deadline or if someone needed help. I never got a penny in overtime, never got a bonus and never got and lieu time. Eventually it progressed to the point where I was leaving the office at 1am on deadline days (once a month) and no matter how much the staff on the same level as me complained that the managers needed to get their act together and sort out the laziness so we didn't have to stay so late, nothing was done about it.
Staying until 1am was totally unreasonable, there was no need for it, all that needed to happen was people needed to buckle down and do their work during the day. I remember once I was going on holiday on the Thursday and the guy who I was working with knew that. I was in that office until about 10pm every night that week finishing off work that he supplied to me late. (I was a graphic designer so last in the chain). I was back in at 9am the next day to start all over again. The Wednesday night I saw 2am on the clock before the final page was sent off to print and then I finally got to go home and go on holiday.
You can all moan and complain about not wanting to work an extra 10 minutes. You can complain about people who don't understand why its good to work for a few extra minutes. But I for one made it a point in my next job to turn up at 8.55 and leave at 5.30. There was no way I was giving away any more of my limited lifetime for working overtime if it wasn't paid.
There is doing the odd hour here and there to get noticed, maybe pull the 1am once... but then you need to know when the management is looking to progress you or take the piss out of you.
In your case the latter and I would have simply told them either sort it out (other staff/more resource/etc) or I go back to my 9-5:30 and they can like it or lump it.
Why didnt you challenge them and just stop doing it?
thainy77 said:
All that jazz said:
It's not as black and white as you're trying to make out. Career ladder progression is probably decided more on whether or not your face fits rather than how skilled you are at what you do, particularly in the public sector. Staying back unpaid to finish projects isn't some auto-win button for career progression; if your face doesn't fit it's a complete waste of your time (and money).
I'll quote this as you deleted your previous post .As above, your face usually fits because your work ethic is good.
You're correct it isn't an auto-win but what are the negatives job wise of putting yourself out there? If your face doesn't fit because of judgements others are making then change job to find one that ties in with your personality rather than stay and moan about it.
Edited by All that jazz on Tuesday 7th June 10:49
Du1point8 said:
In my group of friends, we have someone that has the mentality of the people B that the OP mentions... however he is not your average paid member of staff, he was on £35k circa 6-7 years ago, he's on max of £40k now.
Why?
Cause he does his 9-5 and bhes and moans about having to work 'unpaid time' even if a project is due, he's out of the door at 5pm... he thinks we were all mugs for doing an extra hour here and an hour there...
However the rest of us are now on way way more than he is, we have all been promoted several times in our respective fields, mainly been noted for going beyond what was needed.
He still bhes... we remind that he's been doing it for 6-7 years now and look how far we have progressed from doing that bit extra... we get called mugs, end of story...
He still does not get it and never will.
I guess it also depends on what you view as important - maybe he values quality of life more highly than an increased salary and work stress. Of course, he may not have either, but that's his choice Why?
Cause he does his 9-5 and b
hes and moans about having to work 'unpaid time' even if a project is due, he's out of the door at 5pm... he thinks we were all mugs for doing an extra hour here and an hour there...However the rest of us are now on way way more than he is, we have all been promoted several times in our respective fields, mainly been noted for going beyond what was needed.
He still b
hes... we remind that he's been doing it for 6-7 years now and look how far we have progressed from doing that bit extra... we get called mugs, end of story... He still does not get it and never will.
Du1point8 said:
ashleyman said:
My hours in my last job where 9 - 5.30.
I started out by being a good employee and arriving at 8.45 and leaving at 5.45. Gradually my managers started wanting even more from me, they wanted me to stay often for hours on end after 5.30. I Was happy to do this if there was a deadline or if someone needed help. I never got a penny in overtime, never got a bonus and never got and lieu time. Eventually it progressed to the point where I was leaving the office at 1am on deadline days (once a month) and no matter how much the staff on the same level as me complained that the managers needed to get their act together and sort out the laziness so we didn't have to stay so late, nothing was done about it.
Staying until 1am was totally unreasonable, there was no need for it, all that needed to happen was people needed to buckle down and do their work during the day. I remember once I was going on holiday on the Thursday and the guy who I was working with knew that. I was in that office until about 10pm every night that week finishing off work that he supplied to me late. (I was a graphic designer so last in the chain). I was back in at 9am the next day to start all over again. The Wednesday night I saw 2am on the clock before the final page was sent off to print and then I finally got to go home and go on holiday.
You can all moan and complain about not wanting to work an extra 10 minutes. You can complain about people who don't understand why its good to work for a few extra minutes. But I for one made it a point in my next job to turn up at 8.55 and leave at 5.30. There was no way I was giving away any more of my limited lifetime for working overtime if it wasn't paid.
Sorry dude... you were the mug on that one.I started out by being a good employee and arriving at 8.45 and leaving at 5.45. Gradually my managers started wanting even more from me, they wanted me to stay often for hours on end after 5.30. I Was happy to do this if there was a deadline or if someone needed help. I never got a penny in overtime, never got a bonus and never got and lieu time. Eventually it progressed to the point where I was leaving the office at 1am on deadline days (once a month) and no matter how much the staff on the same level as me complained that the managers needed to get their act together and sort out the laziness so we didn't have to stay so late, nothing was done about it.
Staying until 1am was totally unreasonable, there was no need for it, all that needed to happen was people needed to buckle down and do their work during the day. I remember once I was going on holiday on the Thursday and the guy who I was working with knew that. I was in that office until about 10pm every night that week finishing off work that he supplied to me late. (I was a graphic designer so last in the chain). I was back in at 9am the next day to start all over again. The Wednesday night I saw 2am on the clock before the final page was sent off to print and then I finally got to go home and go on holiday.
You can all moan and complain about not wanting to work an extra 10 minutes. You can complain about people who don't understand why its good to work for a few extra minutes. But I for one made it a point in my next job to turn up at 8.55 and leave at 5.30. There was no way I was giving away any more of my limited lifetime for working overtime if it wasn't paid.
There is doing the odd hour here and there to get noticed, maybe pull the 1am once... but then you need to know when the management is looking to progress you or take the piss out of you.
In your case the latter and I would have simply told them either sort it out (other staff/more resource/etc) or I go back to my 9-5:30 and they can like it or lump it.
Why didnt you challenge them and just stop doing it?
An example: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-05-12-lionh...
Tonsko said:
You should check out the working practices in the video game software industry. Competition for places is high (because game industry), and this kind of thing is more or less expected as 'crunch time' hits. You cannot just refuse. There is a move from the workers to try and halt this, but they're facing an uphill struggle.
An example: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-05-12-lionh...
True but in the example the other person posted it was not all workers its a very select few and as such its the other way round... An example: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-05-12-lionh...
You can use the same example of the Finance industry... no matter how much you complain, there will always be someone else to take your spot if your employers don't think its worth the hassle of keeping you.
Pothole said:
And it's not a narrow minded viewpoint from an employer to expect employees to just suck up anything they see as unfair because they MIGHT get a perk or "leniency"?
Tell me EXACTLY why ANYONE should be EXPECTED to do 80 hours of unpaid work per year? I doubt very much whether the OP's scenario includes a glittering career path or much opportunity for "perks" either, but perhaps he can enlighten us.
Tell me EXACTLY where i said ANYONE should be EXPECTED to do 80 hours of unpaid work per year? Tell me EXACTLY why ANYONE should be EXPECTED to do 80 hours of unpaid work per year? I doubt very much whether the OP's scenario includes a glittering career path or much opportunity for "perks" either, but perhaps he can enlighten us.
You get out what you put in, the same goes for everything in life, if you don't want to put the time in don't b
h when you are overlooked for future advancement.thainy77 said:
Type R Tom said:
True but out of interest, how much time per day do you feel is acceptable to "work" unpaid? Not including commuting, self employed, breaks etc.
It's a difficult question to answer and it does depend on the role as you mentioned above but for this subject i don't see 20 minutes as unreasonable.In previous managerial roles i have held 10-15 hours a week was relatively common but i always had the current end goal in sight.
48 weeks of 5 days x 20 mins = 4800 minutes or 80 hours.
^^ that would be exactly where...
Pothole said:
thainy77 said:
Type R Tom said:
True but out of interest, how much time per day do you feel is acceptable to "work" unpaid? Not including commuting, self employed, breaks etc.
It's a difficult question to answer and it does depend on the role as you mentioned above but for this subject i don't see 20 minutes as unreasonable.In previous managerial roles i have held 10-15 hours a week was relatively common but i always had the current end goal in sight.
48 weeks of 5 days x 20 mins = 4800 minutes or 80 hours.
^^ that would be exactly where...
Clearly you fall in to category B where as i don't.
thainy77 said:
Pothole said:
thainy77 said:
Type R Tom said:
True but out of interest, how much time per day do you feel is acceptable to "work" unpaid? Not including commuting, self employed, breaks etc.
It's a difficult question to answer and it does depend on the role as you mentioned above but for this subject i don't see 20 minutes as unreasonable.In previous managerial roles i have held 10-15 hours a week was relatively common but i always had the current end goal in sight.
48 weeks of 5 days x 20 mins = 4800 minutes or 80 hours.
^^ that would be exactly where...
Clearly you fall in to category B where as i don't.
Actually, I play the game. That doesn't have to mean I agree with all the rules, though, does it? I'm sure you'd agree that a reasonable employer who maintains a good relationship with employees (along with all that encompasses) generally gets better results than an uncaring dictator.
Pothole said:
We can all play semantics.
Actually, I play the game. That doesn't have to mean I agree with all the rules, though, does it? I'm sure you'd agree that a reasonable employer who maintains a good relationship with employees (along with all that encompasses) generally gets better results than an uncaring dictator.
I wouldn't expect much from an employee who started late and finished early every shift, for the sake of 10 minutes (tops). I'm not sure a good manager is one who gets dictated by his staff when they start and finish work. He is not ordering them all to have a short back and sides, merely turn up on time and do you 6 hour (oh the slavery) shift.Actually, I play the game. That doesn't have to mean I agree with all the rules, though, does it? I'm sure you'd agree that a reasonable employer who maintains a good relationship with employees (along with all that encompasses) generally gets better results than an uncaring dictator.
I'd love to see some of these work in construction where sometimes the job is 5 minutes from home for an 8am start and sometimes 2 hours from home for an 8am start.
Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff