Bit of an advise on possibility of dismissal :(
Discussion
Just had a bomb shell dropped on me so hopefully someone can kindly provide some advice ...
First I'll start with a bit of history. I worked for a company for around 5 years before it was bought out by a bigger company. I was offered a new role with the new company to assist in migration project.
I was made PM of the project by IT Director even though I'm new to the company but was told I have full support of management. Basically this project didn't go to planned and caused some friction in senior management. My manager who is also the person who offered me my job left the company and I'm basically left to face the firing line.
I've changed managers twice in period of 1 year since then. I'm with this company for around 1 year and 6 months. I'm now in a new team which is based in HQ. This HQ is 150 miles from my home so I'm based at a site instead. I travel to HQ fortnightly. My contract didn't change but in 1 years or so my role has.
IT Director was initially fine with the arrangement although he did mention about me moving up to HQ citing no pressure.
Fast forward to today... Something must've kicked off this week as my new manager pulled me in for 1-to-1 when I'm in HQ. Apparently the IT Director is not happy with my performance and can't justify having me in the team. I was then asked again if I will relocate near to HQ. I said no but I am willing to improve on performance and I take on board all his concerns. Manager then suggests a few process to hopefully improve the situation. I've mentioned I am happy to have face-to-face with IT Director if required to further address any concerns.
Company has also just taken on one newcomer to replace a leaver but the thing is he is not replacing role of leaver but rather one similar to mine.
Came out of meeting with manager with smile and all but deep inside I know that my time is up. I don't think my performance has dropped but felt like point were being picked on to penalise me. It just feels like they want to let me go but not via redundancy...
Anyway I've never went through such a process before so would appreciate any advise. Can my employment be terminated on the grounds that I won't relocate?
First I'll start with a bit of history. I worked for a company for around 5 years before it was bought out by a bigger company. I was offered a new role with the new company to assist in migration project.
I was made PM of the project by IT Director even though I'm new to the company but was told I have full support of management. Basically this project didn't go to planned and caused some friction in senior management. My manager who is also the person who offered me my job left the company and I'm basically left to face the firing line.
I've changed managers twice in period of 1 year since then. I'm with this company for around 1 year and 6 months. I'm now in a new team which is based in HQ. This HQ is 150 miles from my home so I'm based at a site instead. I travel to HQ fortnightly. My contract didn't change but in 1 years or so my role has.
IT Director was initially fine with the arrangement although he did mention about me moving up to HQ citing no pressure.
Fast forward to today... Something must've kicked off this week as my new manager pulled me in for 1-to-1 when I'm in HQ. Apparently the IT Director is not happy with my performance and can't justify having me in the team. I was then asked again if I will relocate near to HQ. I said no but I am willing to improve on performance and I take on board all his concerns. Manager then suggests a few process to hopefully improve the situation. I've mentioned I am happy to have face-to-face with IT Director if required to further address any concerns.
Company has also just taken on one newcomer to replace a leaver but the thing is he is not replacing role of leaver but rather one similar to mine.
Came out of meeting with manager with smile and all but deep inside I know that my time is up. I don't think my performance has dropped but felt like point were being picked on to penalise me. It just feels like they want to let me go but not via redundancy...
Anyway I've never went through such a process before so would appreciate any advise. Can my employment be terminated on the grounds that I won't relocate?
Your total contract length (inc time at old company) would stand true.
They cannot just "fire you". They will need to do it either via a redundancy of a particular role (but then they are not legally able to hire someone to fill in that position, likewise they cannot hire someone new to do your role then bump you off and use them although I have seen it first hand in my previous company so it DOES happen).
To get rid of you without using a redundancy they would need to go through the formal procedure, a verbal, written, and final warning (depending on your contract with regards to disciplinary action).
I suspect as you have surmised they don't want you working remotely and want someone on site all the time.. seems odd in this day and age... I work from home 90% of the time.
Can you honestly say your performance may not have slipped slightly? Often a hard topic to broach but sometimes we let ourselves go without necessarily realising due to resentment or what not. I've been there myself.
I would perhaps quietly find another job while you are looking.
If you are made redundant at least you'd get a chunk of money :-)
Being made redundant was a great thing for me. I loved the people, but unfortunately the new company were not nice (management) and did like to mess things up. I did get a 8k payrise (and since then, another payrise totalling 15k) plus redundancy payout was basically 1 months garden leave (I worked with my friend cash in hand) and another 3 weeks wages so basically I had 3 months pay in one as I started a new job immediately after my Garden Leave.
They cannot just "fire you". They will need to do it either via a redundancy of a particular role (but then they are not legally able to hire someone to fill in that position, likewise they cannot hire someone new to do your role then bump you off and use them although I have seen it first hand in my previous company so it DOES happen).
To get rid of you without using a redundancy they would need to go through the formal procedure, a verbal, written, and final warning (depending on your contract with regards to disciplinary action).
I suspect as you have surmised they don't want you working remotely and want someone on site all the time.. seems odd in this day and age... I work from home 90% of the time.
Can you honestly say your performance may not have slipped slightly? Often a hard topic to broach but sometimes we let ourselves go without necessarily realising due to resentment or what not. I've been there myself.
I would perhaps quietly find another job while you are looking.
If you are made redundant at least you'd get a chunk of money :-)
Being made redundant was a great thing for me. I loved the people, but unfortunately the new company were not nice (management) and did like to mess things up. I did get a 8k payrise (and since then, another payrise totalling 15k) plus redundancy payout was basically 1 months garden leave (I worked with my friend cash in hand) and another 3 weeks wages so basically I had 3 months pay in one as I started a new job immediately after my Garden Leave.
Edited by xjay1337 on Friday 8th July 14:25
FYI at my old company we used "performance improvement" to manage people out the door. I'd suggest looking for another job and get out whilst you have time on your side. Getting angry with the situation (not suggesting you are) is never helpful or productive in my experience. Onward and upward.
TX.
TX.
Hi all,
Thanks for the kind reply. I'm not angry just feel shell shocked. I've always strive to give my best at work and have never been in any kind of disciplinary procedure my whole career. This is the first big company I've worked for though so not sure how things works.
As far as I'm aware there's no formal procedure or warning, just manager saying I have a "big red flag" on my head and IT Director is not happy with my performance past few months. I find it strange this is suddenly brought up as I've spoke to IT director last month and he's happy. Only thing I can think of is that I've told one colleague this week that I'm not very happy and worried about my career here.
As for redundancy this also hasn't been mentioned and I've heard that my department never offerred redundancy. I've only heard my manager say that hopefully the decision won't be to let me go
I can see things from management perspective and have promised to try and improve things with a plan put forward. I'm hoping they can see things from mine too. It's just not feasible moving my family here and my kids finally settled down in school and have friends. Also there's also a risk that I'll still be sacked after moving here...
Loads to think over the weekend - and I have to work during the weekend preparing for system implementation on Monday too so that'll be fun...
Thanks for the kind reply. I'm not angry just feel shell shocked. I've always strive to give my best at work and have never been in any kind of disciplinary procedure my whole career. This is the first big company I've worked for though so not sure how things works.
As far as I'm aware there's no formal procedure or warning, just manager saying I have a "big red flag" on my head and IT Director is not happy with my performance past few months. I find it strange this is suddenly brought up as I've spoke to IT director last month and he's happy. Only thing I can think of is that I've told one colleague this week that I'm not very happy and worried about my career here.
As for redundancy this also hasn't been mentioned and I've heard that my department never offerred redundancy. I've only heard my manager say that hopefully the decision won't be to let me go
I can see things from management perspective and have promised to try and improve things with a plan put forward. I'm hoping they can see things from mine too. It's just not feasible moving my family here and my kids finally settled down in school and have friends. Also there's also a risk that I'll still be sacked after moving here...
Loads to think over the weekend - and I have to work during the weekend preparing for system implementation on Monday too so that'll be fun...
Regarding question about performance I think it's not easy to quantify as I've had 3 line managers in less than a year and all of them had different directions. Perhaps if I'm physically based in the HQ things will be different as they can physically see me working away and contribute as part of the team. I have completed tasks assigned by my current line manager though but I guess there's been some crossed wires and miscommunication or perhaps that doesn't account to anything.
So yes if we don't consider all of the above and looking at things from senior management's perspective yes, my performance has slipped as I don't seem to be delivering major projects.
I've been told to get something done by 1st August so hopefully nothing will happen until then but who knows...
So yes if we don't consider all of the above and looking at things from senior management's perspective yes, my performance has slipped as I don't seem to be delivering major projects.
I've been told to get something done by 1st August so hopefully nothing will happen until then but who knows...
They want you out, I think that's clear. If you're the project manager and the project fails the buck stops with you, even if you didn't cause the problem.
Your job now is to drag it out long enough to get a decent payout for leaving, or until you've found something else that's suitable.
If it's possible I would suggest that you row back on the straight "no" to relocation. That's a bad attitude to have since they do have the (reasonably straightforward) option to make you redundant if they feel your job should be at HQ and you don't want to go.
Your job now is to drag it out long enough to get a decent payout for leaving, or until you've found something else that's suitable.
If it's possible I would suggest that you row back on the straight "no" to relocation. That's a bad attitude to have since they do have the (reasonably straightforward) option to make you redundant if they feel your job should be at HQ and you don't want to go.
davepoth said:
they do have the (reasonably straightforward) option to make you redundant if they feel your job should be at HQ and you don't want to go.
You say that like it's a bad thing, I think the opposite - lets'say he stays there for another 6-12 months. Always got a cloud hanging over you and you never quite feel 'right' A redundancy can be a positive life changer tbh as long as both sides can move on quickly
This topic has been covered a few times on here, start searching/reading.
Remember this probably not about you, the other departures are likely to have been exactly the same, if possible reconnect with them, outline your situation and ask if they are prepared to tell you anything.
"not happy with my performance and can't justify having me in the team" are two completely separate issues. As other have said it is likely they are trying to managed you out. My guess is they want you to jump, don't. Do start looking for options but don't jump, make them push you out or more likely offer a settlement agreement. http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4395
Unless you've been given clear indicators of your expected performance and specifics about how you've failed a 'with cause sacking' is not legally possible unless you fail a PIP (Google Performance improvement plans). The second part is essentially saying your position is redundant and is a nice little ace in the hole if they try something with cause. Don't give it away. In both cases, redundancy vs settlement any cash offer is likely to the similar. If you leave they are likely to save at least three months salary.
Start keeping copious notes, be specific and precise about what you are told and asked, record the exact words used to convey the above to you. Collate information concerning objectives set by the previous managers and identify the discrepancies or changes. Use the HR processes to your advantage.
Google covering your arse using processes.
Remember this probably not about you, the other departures are likely to have been exactly the same, if possible reconnect with them, outline your situation and ask if they are prepared to tell you anything.
"not happy with my performance and can't justify having me in the team" are two completely separate issues. As other have said it is likely they are trying to managed you out. My guess is they want you to jump, don't. Do start looking for options but don't jump, make them push you out or more likely offer a settlement agreement. http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4395
Unless you've been given clear indicators of your expected performance and specifics about how you've failed a 'with cause sacking' is not legally possible unless you fail a PIP (Google Performance improvement plans). The second part is essentially saying your position is redundant and is a nice little ace in the hole if they try something with cause. Don't give it away. In both cases, redundancy vs settlement any cash offer is likely to the similar. If you leave they are likely to save at least three months salary.
Start keeping copious notes, be specific and precise about what you are told and asked, record the exact words used to convey the above to you. Collate information concerning objectives set by the previous managers and identify the discrepancies or changes. Use the HR processes to your advantage.
Google covering your arse using processes.
Do you have some sort of formal performance policy in your staff handbook? If so, what does it say?
You said you "took on board" the comments - are you saying they are justified or simply seeking excuses?
As above, it is likely that a wise person would seek another job. Then seek a compromise agreement to leave your firm with a small payoff.
Do feel free to email me however if you wish.
You said you "took on board" the comments - are you saying they are justified or simply seeking excuses?
As above, it is likely that a wise person would seek another job. Then seek a compromise agreement to leave your firm with a small payoff.
Do feel free to email me however if you wish.
Have you been given a formal performance improvement plan? It sounds like they have not been specific about your lack of performance. Do you know formally (or informally) what to improve?
I would ask for specific targets to improve. Then consider/ negotiate whether these are realistic (SMART) objectives?
But do you now want to stay??
Mike
I would ask for specific targets to improve. Then consider/ negotiate whether these are realistic (SMART) objectives?
But do you now want to stay??
Mike
Thanks again all for the incredibly helpful replies. It's a relieve to know they cannot just sack me without a valid reason.
Regarding relocation for me it's a no as I don't feel any reassurance at all regarding career prospects. The words "can't currently justify large team" and "I'm not sure how to sell your role to the IT Director" enforces my thoughts. Also the fact that they've just hired a new start with higher pay grade just starting this week just doesn't makes sense to me to relocate. There is no relocation offer on the table, only an offer to take my wife (no kids) offer to look at some houses in the afternoon while I work in the morning.
Regarding performance I guess I'm just unlucky. When I first joined this company I was made PM of a systems implementation project. From my perspective I've put in all the effort and my directive (and only contact despite offer of support from IT Director) throughout the project came from the boss who left the company.
I've constantly highlighted issues to my then boss and also copied in IT Director when I feel that escalation is required but was just told to "crack on". Anyway there were issues unknown which gone all the way to the top during the final days of the project which resulted in my ex boss leaving the company. I had to work extra hard to ensure project still went live but in the eyes of the senior management it's a failed project and there's some black mark hanging over my head. Another senior member of the team also left after my boss which then resulted in the future rollouts being cancelled.
The IT Director then transferred me to another role with another boss. I was with this boss for roughly 5 months and have based myself at another site roughly 20miles away to be close to him. I've constantly met targets set by him although after he retired it looks like senior management didn't really like what he did and whatever work I've been doing for him didn't get recognised.
The next boss who is my current boss is a younger lady with fresh ideas and is based in HQ. When I first met her is March it was all positive talk on how being under her wings will result in my career going in the right direction and how I will be very busy in June. June came and the same talk however less enthusiatic tone about how we'll be busy in September. I've been given tasks by this new boss which I've always completed. I guess she finds it difficult managing someone remotely as she used to manage teams that is based together. Sometimes I would find her forgetting tasks that she's said is important which I've done.
Sorry for the long post but I guess I just need to get it off my chest. Perhaps I've been in an unlucky situation. I'm definitely job hunting and hoping for a fair outcome and not bullied out of a job. Again, no redundancy offer has been mentioned, so far just a meeting yesterday mentioning I've got a red flag for non being around and under performing. I did try to defend myself but current manager's tone changed saying "well let's just say I don't want to go back to IT Director with option to let you go because you won't relocate as this won't work for the team" so I just said I'll improve on my performance and complete more visible tasks.
I know for me it will be like a dark cloud hanging over my head until I find another job or the unlikely even that prospects improve but guess there's nothing else I can do? I haven't approached HR yet at this point as I don't see any need to...
Regarding relocation for me it's a no as I don't feel any reassurance at all regarding career prospects. The words "can't currently justify large team" and "I'm not sure how to sell your role to the IT Director" enforces my thoughts. Also the fact that they've just hired a new start with higher pay grade just starting this week just doesn't makes sense to me to relocate. There is no relocation offer on the table, only an offer to take my wife (no kids) offer to look at some houses in the afternoon while I work in the morning.
Regarding performance I guess I'm just unlucky. When I first joined this company I was made PM of a systems implementation project. From my perspective I've put in all the effort and my directive (and only contact despite offer of support from IT Director) throughout the project came from the boss who left the company.
I've constantly highlighted issues to my then boss and also copied in IT Director when I feel that escalation is required but was just told to "crack on". Anyway there were issues unknown which gone all the way to the top during the final days of the project which resulted in my ex boss leaving the company. I had to work extra hard to ensure project still went live but in the eyes of the senior management it's a failed project and there's some black mark hanging over my head. Another senior member of the team also left after my boss which then resulted in the future rollouts being cancelled.
The IT Director then transferred me to another role with another boss. I was with this boss for roughly 5 months and have based myself at another site roughly 20miles away to be close to him. I've constantly met targets set by him although after he retired it looks like senior management didn't really like what he did and whatever work I've been doing for him didn't get recognised.
The next boss who is my current boss is a younger lady with fresh ideas and is based in HQ. When I first met her is March it was all positive talk on how being under her wings will result in my career going in the right direction and how I will be very busy in June. June came and the same talk however less enthusiatic tone about how we'll be busy in September. I've been given tasks by this new boss which I've always completed. I guess she finds it difficult managing someone remotely as she used to manage teams that is based together. Sometimes I would find her forgetting tasks that she's said is important which I've done.
Sorry for the long post but I guess I just need to get it off my chest. Perhaps I've been in an unlucky situation. I'm definitely job hunting and hoping for a fair outcome and not bullied out of a job. Again, no redundancy offer has been mentioned, so far just a meeting yesterday mentioning I've got a red flag for non being around and under performing. I did try to defend myself but current manager's tone changed saying "well let's just say I don't want to go back to IT Director with option to let you go because you won't relocate as this won't work for the team" so I just said I'll improve on my performance and complete more visible tasks.
I know for me it will be like a dark cloud hanging over my head until I find another job or the unlikely even that prospects improve but guess there's nothing else I can do? I haven't approached HR yet at this point as I don't see any need to...
4x4Tyke said:
This topic has been covered a few times on here, start searching/reading.
Remember this probably not about you, the other departures are likely to have been exactly the same, if possible reconnect with them, outline your situation and ask if they are prepared to tell you anything.
"not happy with my performance and can't justify having me in the team" are two completely separate issues. As other have said it is likely they are trying to managed you out. My guess is they want you to jump, don't. Do start looking for options but don't jump, make them push you out or more likely offer a settlement agreement. http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4395
Unless you've been given clear indicators of your expected performance and specifics about how you've failed a 'with cause sacking' is not legally possible unless you fail a PIP (Google Performance improvement plans). The second part is essentially saying your position is redundant and is a nice little ace in the hole if they try something with cause. Don't give it away. In both cases, redundancy vs settlement any cash offer is likely to the similar. If you leave they are likely to save at least three months salary.
Start keeping copious notes, be specific and precise about what you are told and asked, record the exact words used to convey the above to you. Collate information concerning objectives set by the previous managers and identify the discrepancies or changes. Use the HR processes to your advantage.
Google covering your arse using processes.
Thanks. I'm definitely keeping record of all that's been said and agreed. Definitely won't jump but feel down as it's like dark cloud over head. No PIP has been mentioned, came out of the meeting agreeing to a weekly catchup with line manager to discuss work load and any issues. Also that I will start commiting to travelling to HQ fortnightly - I only travelled down 1 week last month as I was off during the week I'm supposed to travel down but now I need to make sure I arrange to be there 2 weeks/month. It wasn't clear how many days but I will confirm during catch up meeting coming Friday.Remember this probably not about you, the other departures are likely to have been exactly the same, if possible reconnect with them, outline your situation and ask if they are prepared to tell you anything.
"not happy with my performance and can't justify having me in the team" are two completely separate issues. As other have said it is likely they are trying to managed you out. My guess is they want you to jump, don't. Do start looking for options but don't jump, make them push you out or more likely offer a settlement agreement. http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4395
Unless you've been given clear indicators of your expected performance and specifics about how you've failed a 'with cause sacking' is not legally possible unless you fail a PIP (Google Performance improvement plans). The second part is essentially saying your position is redundant and is a nice little ace in the hole if they try something with cause. Don't give it away. In both cases, redundancy vs settlement any cash offer is likely to the similar. If you leave they are likely to save at least three months salary.
Start keeping copious notes, be specific and precise about what you are told and asked, record the exact words used to convey the above to you. Collate information concerning objectives set by the previous managers and identify the discrepancies or changes. Use the HR processes to your advantage.
Google covering your arse using processes.
Edited by crazy about cars on Saturday 9th July 10:12
Edited by crazy about cars on Saturday 9th July 10:22
andy-xr said:
You say that like it's a bad thing, I think the opposite - lets'say he stays there for another 6-12 months. Always got a cloud hanging over you and you never quite feel 'right'
A redundancy can be a positive life changer tbh as long as both sides can move on quickly
Yes, for me I will feel better if company would be straight forward about it and say role is HQ based only therefore I'll be made redundant instead of trying to blame on my performance which will affect my chances of finding another job...A redundancy can be a positive life changer tbh as long as both sides can move on quickly
Jasandjules said:
Do you have some sort of formal performance policy in your staff handbook? If so, what does it say?
You said you "took on board" the comments - are you saying they are justified or simply seeking excuses?
As above, it is likely that a wise person would seek another job. Then seek a compromise agreement to leave your firm with a small payoff.
Do feel free to email me however if you wish.
Some of the comments are probably due to crossed wires however as my previous post manager's tone changed for the worse so I didn't want to go down that route which makes things worse so just said I took all points on board and am willing to improve.You said you "took on board" the comments - are you saying they are justified or simply seeking excuses?
As above, it is likely that a wise person would seek another job. Then seek a compromise agreement to leave your firm with a small payoff.
Do feel free to email me however if you wish.
There's no formal structured guideline on performance although in my contract it's still focussed on the role I was initially hired which was in ERP and not Business Intelligence.
I'm on the job hunt but am a bit worried I will get negative reference. Although I'm sure I can get a good reference from first boss who left the company...
Edited by crazy about cars on Saturday 9th July 10:25
mike9009 said:
Have you been given a formal performance improvement plan? It sounds like they have not been specific about your lack of performance. Do you know formally (or informally) what to improve?
I would ask for specific targets to improve. Then consider/ negotiate whether these are realistic (SMART) objectives?
But do you now want to stay??
Mike
No, as far as I'm aware I've not been given any formal improvement plans, just been told to focus on a project to Go Live by 1st August as target and a weekly catch up. I did mention it's a tight deadline and will highlight in weekly review of any issues faced.I would ask for specific targets to improve. Then consider/ negotiate whether these are realistic (SMART) objectives?
But do you now want to stay??
Mike
If things doesn't improve then no, I don't think I would want to stay as I don't feel appreciated.
Just a bit suprised why this is happening now but I supposed someone up top asked about budgets/headcount.
I know recently working from home is a taboo and banned and guess because I'm mostly remote (go to local site instead of HQ) I've viewed in the same light.
Another thing that was discussed was how expensive it is to put me through training and after meeting I found out I've been excluded from a training session... kick in the teeth.
Edited by crazy about cars on Saturday 9th July 10:27
Some managers are suspicious of employees when they can't watch them working - I've had a few like that. If they think targets aren't met or performance isn't what they want it to be, it might just come down to them thinking you're surfing the web all day off site, where they can't see you (even if you're not).
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