Bit of an advise on possibility of dismissal :(
Discussion
crazy about cars said:
I'm on the job hunt but am a bit worried I will get negative reference. Although I'm sure I can get a good reference from first boss who left the company...
It is increasingly rare for companies to provide anything other than simple factual reference, essentially job title, start and end dates.If you do end up going the settlement route the content of any reference letter will be one point to agree.
A settlement agreement will include a confidentiality clause that makes the terms of the agreement and circumstances of departure confidential. The existence of the settlement agreement its self probably will not be confidential.
This is why I also why I wrote about asking the previous departures what they are prepared to tell you. If you do talk to them you need to give them the best opportunity to tell you what they will but without jeopardizing their compliance.
crazy about cars said:
Thanks again all for the incredibly helpful replies. It's a relieve to know they cannot just sack me without a valid reason.
That is not strictly true. Within the qualifying period of the first two years they don't really need a valid reason, don't have to follow their performance procedures, disciplinary procedures or anything like that if they so wish. However, that doesn't mean that a dismissal like that would automatically be safe during that period because you may be able to show it was based on discrimination or because of an office you hold like that of a union rep. Outside of a small number of exclusions though they can dismiss you without a reason and there is no need for performance improvement plans or any such thing.It takes quite a ballsy company to do so though but don't be under any illusions of being "safe"
Sorry to state that but employees are significantly less safe with less than two years service and you need to know what you are dealing with
craigjm said:
That is not strictly true. Within the qualifying period of the first two years they don't really need a valid reason, don't have to follow their performance procedures, disciplinary procedures or anything like that if they so wish. However, that doesn't mean that a dismissal like that would automatically be safe during that period because you may be able to show it was based on discrimination or because of an office you hold like that of a union rep. Outside of a small number of exclusions though they can dismiss you without a reason and there is no need for performance improvement plans or any such thing.
It takes quite a ballsy company to do so though but don't be under any illusions of being "safe"
Sorry to state that but employees are significantly less safe with less than two years service and you need to know what you are dealing with
I've been with previous company for just over 5 years before it's taken over (been with this company 1 year 7 months). My impression is my years of service in previous company would be included? I've checked my HR portal and it says continuous service 5 years.It takes quite a ballsy company to do so though but don't be under any illusions of being "safe"
Sorry to state that but employees are significantly less safe with less than two years service and you need to know what you are dealing with
WinstonWolf said:
The IT Director's project has failed, he needs to be seen to be doing something about it. You're in a precarious position, my advice would be to walk away with a good reference into something more local.
I guess it's worse as this is his first major project after joining company (he joined a month after me) ...On the job hunt but it's very competitive in my sector but still trying my best.
crazy about cars said:
craigjm said:
That is not strictly true. Within the qualifying period of the first two years they don't really need a valid reason, don't have to follow their performance procedures, disciplinary procedures or anything like that if they so wish. However, that doesn't mean that a dismissal like that would automatically be safe during that period because you may be able to show it was based on discrimination or because of an office you hold like that of a union rep. Outside of a small number of exclusions though they can dismiss you without a reason and there is no need for performance improvement plans or any such thing.
It takes quite a ballsy company to do so though but don't be under any illusions of being "safe"
Sorry to state that but employees are significantly less safe with less than two years service and you need to know what you are dealing with
I've been with previous company for just over 5 years before it's taken over (been with this company 1 year 7 months). My impression is my years of service in previous company would be included? I've checked my HR portal and it says continuous service 5 years.It takes quite a ballsy company to do so though but don't be under any illusions of being "safe"
Sorry to state that but employees are significantly less safe with less than two years service and you need to know what you are dealing with
In your position, I'd want at least 6 month's salary. I wouldn't be concerned with the reference, they are only legally bound to confirm your position and employment dates anyway. Much better to get a personal reference from a previous boss you worked with there.
TEKNOPUG said:
Your position hasn't become redundant. They have no cause to fire you
If your role moves to another location and you don't want to, that can be a valid ground for redundancy. https://www.gov.uk/employer-relocation-your-rights
crazy about cars said:
craigjm said:
That is not strictly true. Within the qualifying period of the first two years they don't really need a valid reason, don't have to follow their performance procedures, disciplinary procedures or anything like that if they so wish. However, that doesn't mean that a dismissal like that would automatically be safe during that period because you may be able to show it was based on discrimination or because of an office you hold like that of a union rep. Outside of a small number of exclusions though they can dismiss you without a reason and there is no need for performance improvement plans or any such thing.
It takes quite a ballsy company to do so though but don't be under any illusions of being "safe"
Sorry to state that but employees are significantly less safe with less than two years service and you need to know what you are dealing with
I've been with previous company for just over 5 years before it's taken over (been with this company 1 year 7 months). My impression is my years of service in previous company would be included? I've checked my HR portal and it says continuous service 5 years.It takes quite a ballsy company to do so though but don't be under any illusions of being "safe"
Sorry to state that but employees are significantly less safe with less than two years service and you need to know what you are dealing with
TEKNOPUG said:
5 Year continuous service? Accept that they want you out. Your position hasn't become redundant. They have no cause to fire you (they certainly haven't followed the correct procedures). So it just comes down to a financial settlement. I've been in similar position (company A merges with company B, it's already been decided that B will keep certain roles etc) with less service than you and was given 1 year's salary. Which was basically, "we're illegally firing you, here's lots of money as a settlement on the agreement that you don't sue".
In your position, I'd want at least 6 month's salary. I wouldn't be concerned with the reference, they are only legally bound to confirm your position and employment dates anyway. Much better to get a personal reference from a previous boss you worked with there.
I was offered new role which basically transferring from local site IT to central IT. Things have massively changed from the point my boss left so I am guessing I suddenly don't fit in the big picture. Nothing formal has been said about role being based in HQ except from the meeting yesterday. Few weeks ago had same informal discussion with IT director and line manager (which I think I've also posted here) and the tone was completely different. In the IT Director's words "no pressure...". I still find it strange how things have suddenly changed.In your position, I'd want at least 6 month's salary. I wouldn't be concerned with the reference, they are only legally bound to confirm your position and employment dates anyway. Much better to get a personal reference from a previous boss you worked with there.
There's few points I need to work on coming out from the meeting yesterday and hopefully that will make some difference. I should hopefully be able to tell in few weeks. Requested a meeting with the IT Director to further discuss as well as manager admitted she's a bit puzzled as well at the change of stance.
davepoth said:
If your role moves to another location and you don't want to, that can be a valid ground for redundancy.
https://www.gov.uk/employer-relocation-your-rights
That I will accept but I guess this has be through formal processes and not just from a meeting like what I had yesterday?https://www.gov.uk/employer-relocation-your-rights
The words "If you don't relocate I find it hard to make this work with IT Director" still sticks in my mind... I guess I should've just asked "Does this mean I will be made redundant" but I was shell shocked and can't think straight.
All is just starting to sink in today.
edit: The new start was initially supposed to fulfil a position of someone who left the company. This person had a distinctive role which is different from mine. However during interview process the role was revised to one very similar to what I'm supposed to progress into. I've read that by law they cannot hire someone in similar role after making someone redundant but I guess this could be a strategy to let me go citing not enough work for 2 person in same role?
Edited by crazy about cars on Saturday 9th July 12:58
Edited by crazy about cars on Saturday 9th July 12:59
I've been in a similar situation before, and my advice is to be like The Fonz and stay cool for as long as you can, do not mention redundancy or wanting to leave, do a great job and meet expectations as much as you can.
Accept they want you out, and start looking for another job. In my case, I was expecting a compromise agreement and I have no doubt I would have got one, but work was getting me down so much that I eventually found another job before we got to the compromise agreement being made and it was the best thing for my sanity to just go. I spent 3 months sitting in my garden on full pay so it wasn't all bad.
Best case is you get some money, and a new job lined up around the same time and move on. Remember it's always easier to find work when you are already in work, so make sure you look after your best interests and don't sit around waiting for a pay off that may never come.
Accept they want you out, and start looking for another job. In my case, I was expecting a compromise agreement and I have no doubt I would have got one, but work was getting me down so much that I eventually found another job before we got to the compromise agreement being made and it was the best thing for my sanity to just go. I spent 3 months sitting in my garden on full pay so it wasn't all bad.
Best case is you get some money, and a new job lined up around the same time and move on. Remember it's always easier to find work when you are already in work, so make sure you look after your best interests and don't sit around waiting for a pay off that may never come.
craigjm said:
My advice would be to look for another job and aim for a settlement agreement with the current company enclosing three months salary. Be wary of an agreed reference though.
Mine too. As usual keep full records of all related interactions and communications. I am sure an employment tribunal, if it ever came to that, would reach the conclusion that you had been poorly managed by your employer. . Jefferson Steelflex said:
I've been in a similar situation before, and my advice is to be like The Fonz and stay cool for as long as you can, do not mention redundancy or wanting to leave, do a great job and meet expectations as much as you can.
Accept they want you out, and start looking for another job. In my case, I was expecting a compromise agreement and I have no doubt I would have got one, but work was getting me down so much that I eventually found another job before we got to the compromise agreement being made and it was the best thing for my sanity to just go. I spent 3 months sitting in my garden on full pay so it wasn't all bad.
Best case is you get some money, and a new job lined up around the same time and move on. Remember it's always easier to find work when you are already in work, so make sure you look after your best interests and don't sit around waiting for a pay off that may never come.
Thanks bud. That's my plan too, hence why I've stayed very calm during the meeting and have agreed to address the red flags best I can. Accept they want you out, and start looking for another job. In my case, I was expecting a compromise agreement and I have no doubt I would have got one, but work was getting me down so much that I eventually found another job before we got to the compromise agreement being made and it was the best thing for my sanity to just go. I spent 3 months sitting in my garden on full pay so it wasn't all bad.
Best case is you get some money, and a new job lined up around the same time and move on. Remember it's always easier to find work when you are already in work, so make sure you look after your best interests and don't sit around waiting for a pay off that may never come.
I've updated CV/LinkedIn and started to hunt for jobs but the market doesn't look so good so far. I'll keep trying and fingers crossed I'll find something soon as it's not nice going to work everyday knowing there's good chance of being let go at any time.
Funk said:
Don't approach HR at all. They're there to look out for the company's interests, not yours.
Find something new then negotiate a settlement to go from your current employer.
Thanks. I've only thought of this as I've spoke to someone from HR just after joining this company and she seemed very helpful compared to usual HR person I speak to at HQ about stuff like holiday entitlements etc.Find something new then negotiate a settlement to go from your current employer.
However that was an issue against another employee instead of the company so I guess it's different...
ChasW said:
Mine too. As usual keep full records of all related interactions and communications. I am sure an employment tribunal, if it ever came to that, would reach the conclusion that you had been poorly managed by your employer. .
Well I'm hoping it wouldn't end up going in that direction as it would've been very awkward process. I can't imagine turning up to work with a grievance or tribunal claim put against my employer.I'm definitely going to be more meticulous about record keeping. One thing I didn't do is to create a written record of what was discussed during the meeting. I'm not sure as that'll be wise as it might aggravate the situation.
crazy about cars said:
Funk said:
Don't approach HR at all. They're there to look out for the company's interests, not yours.
Find something new then negotiate a settlement to go from your current employer.
Thanks. I've only thought of this as I've spoke to someone from HR just after joining this company and she seemed very helpful compared to usual HR person I speak to at HQ about stuff like holiday entitlements etc.Find something new then negotiate a settlement to go from your current employer.
However that was an issue against another employee instead of the company so I guess it's different...
Keep your cards close to your chest on this one.
Jasandjules said:
Ok,
What does your contract say about your location of work?
Place of work in the contract is at the same site I was working at before it got bought over (Let's call this Site A). However IT Director asked me to travel to another site further away (Let's call this Site B) from around October last year which I've done and have been claiming business miles against. Because of doing this I've lost my desk at Site A and have now been permanently based in Site B unless if I'm travelling up to HQ.What does your contract say about your location of work?
It does say I need to travel and also required to work elsewhere within UK on occasional or temp periods.
Also a line about my role saying I'm required to comply to "reasonable instructions as the company shall determine to be necessary for the proper performance" of my role.
I'm a bit worried by this one... can this be interpreted as being in HQ is viewed as necessary for proper performance?
Clauses such as "reasonable instructions as the company shall determine to be necessary for the proper performance" are pretty much universal. They cover day to day instructions and assigning work duties.
It does not provide the company never mind the manager with the power to changing essential elements of the contract such as working location. To do that a contract will typically include a specific expectation regarding working location, variation and travel.
It does not provide the company never mind the manager with the power to changing essential elements of the contract such as working location. To do that a contract will typically include a specific expectation regarding working location, variation and travel.
4x4Tyke said:
Clauses such as "reasonable instructions as the company shall determine to be necessary for the proper performance" are pretty much universal. They cover day to day instructions and assigning work duties.
It does not provide the company never mind the manager with the power to changing essential elements of the contract such as working location. To do that a contract will typically include a specific expectation regarding working location, variation and travel.
Ah ok, thank you for the clarification.It does not provide the company never mind the manager with the power to changing essential elements of the contract such as working location. To do that a contract will typically include a specific expectation regarding working location, variation and travel.
As advised I'll play it cool and try my best to meet expectations whilst ensuring I document what's possible. Weekly catch up would be a very good process to ensure both myself and management are clear about performance expectations.
A bit of good news as I've been contacted by head of department of company (instead of the usual recruiter) on LinkedIn so hopefully that could turn into potential job opportunity otherwise can form good experience for future job search. I need some brushing up after 5+ years...
Edited by crazy about cars on Sunday 10th July 14:25
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