Fuelling - What exactly is in the euro 4 regs?
Discussion
I read quite a lot of bike magazines. Seems quite a common complaint that the fuelling (especially at low revs/speeds) on new bikes is poor, but that this is unavoidable due to euro 4.
I was curious if anyone knows precisely what it is about euro 4 regs that mean this is the case? Do let it enforce a maximum flow rate of fuel per 1000 revs or something, which starves the engine at lower revs?
I was curious if anyone knows precisely what it is about euro 4 regs that mean this is the case? Do let it enforce a maximum flow rate of fuel per 1000 revs or something, which starves the engine at lower revs?
Look at a fuel map for a Euro 4 bike.... often have a big chunk out of an otherwise smooth line/curve.. and often right about where you'd ride it at low speed in towns. That missing chunk is mainly there to meet noise and emissions tests which also funnily enough are tested at around the same revs.
On many bikes it can cause a snatchy throttle response at low speeds. Aftermarket can and map sorts it, or just remap yourself to remove the missing chunk of the otherwise smooth fuel map.
On many bikes it can cause a snatchy throttle response at low speeds. Aftermarket can and map sorts it, or just remap yourself to remove the missing chunk of the otherwise smooth fuel map.
I remember reading a piece about how some of the first fuel injected Triumph bikes had 56 point maps, that is 56 different fuelling points across the entire range of use. They now have over 500 points on the map, probably most of them so they can run super-lean across most of the range!
A quick google finds the actual emission limits for Euro 4.
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2016/january/mc...
So 1.14g/km of CO, 0.17g/km of HC, .09g/km of NOx.
To put the "impossibility" into perspective... That CO figure is more than the 1996 Euro 2 car standard (1.0g), HC + NOx is around the same as the 2005 Euro 4 for cars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_st...
NOx alone is about the same as car Euro6, though (2014).
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2016/january/mc...
So 1.14g/km of CO, 0.17g/km of HC, .09g/km of NOx.
To put the "impossibility" into perspective... That CO figure is more than the 1996 Euro 2 car standard (1.0g), HC + NOx is around the same as the 2005 Euro 4 for cars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_st...
NOx alone is about the same as car Euro6, though (2014).
spookly said:
Look at a fuel map for a Euro 4 bike.... often have a big chunk out of an otherwise smooth line/curve.. and often right about where you'd ride it at low speed in towns. That missing chunk is mainly there to meet noise and emissions tests which also funnily enough are tested at around the same revs.
On many bikes it can cause a snatchy throttle response at low speeds. Aftermarket can and map sorts it, or just remap yourself to remove the missing chunk of the otherwise smooth fuel map.
this is what I love about PH - geeky question asked; community answers! - thanks much for your response. On many bikes it can cause a snatchy throttle response at low speeds. Aftermarket can and map sorts it, or just remap yourself to remove the missing chunk of the otherwise smooth fuel map.
Funny how when Volkswagen do similar tricks with their cars they are criminal pariahs, yet bike manufacturers can do this and all is cool, especially as we are all going to vandalise the bedwetter green eco nonsense cack and fit new pipes and ignition maps to make the bike be as it should and f*** the emissions and the emissions laws
998420 said:
... especially as we are all going to vandalise the bedwetter green eco nonsense cack and fit new pipes and ignition maps to make the bike be as it should and f*** the emissions and the emissions laws
I think this will be pretty much essential now as the stock systems look increasingly s
te, esp on sportsbikes...So my local dealer was telling me, all the Euro 4 bikes will have a large charcoal filter fitted to them, into which the fuel overflow/breather pipe will feed, just in case you overfill the bike, excess fuel will then go into this filter rather than just dropping onto the ground...
podman said:
So my local dealer was telling me, all the Euro 4 bikes will have a large charcoal filter fitted to them, into which the fuel overflow/breather pipe will feed, just in case you overfill the bike, excess fuel will then go into this filter rather than just dropping onto the ground...
Cars have had evaporative emissions systems mandated since Euro 2. It'll be fine for new models as they'll hide the various bits, but any existing models that get re-type approved will look st unless some careful work is done 
bgunn said:
podman said:
So my local dealer was telling me, all the Euro 4 bikes will have a large charcoal filter fitted to them, into which the fuel overflow/breather pipe will feed, just in case you overfill the bike, excess fuel will then go into this filter rather than just dropping onto the ground...
Cars have had evaporative emissions systems mandated since Euro 2. It'll be fine for new models as they'll hide the various bits, but any existing models that get re-type approved will look st unless some careful work is done Could be wrong but generally bikes that fall foul of impending legislation get pensioned off rather than re-approved, the original 600 Fazer is one I can think of and these 2 are already victims.
http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-general-n...
podman said:
bgunn said:
podman said:
So my local dealer was telling me, all the Euro 4 bikes will have a large charcoal filter fitted to them, into which the fuel overflow/breather pipe will feed, just in case you overfill the bike, excess fuel will then go into this filter rather than just dropping onto the ground...
Cars have had evaporative emissions systems mandated since Euro 2. It'll be fine for new models as they'll hide the various bits, but any existing models that get re-type approved will look st unless some careful work is done Could be wrong but generally bikes that fall foul of impending legislation get pensioned off rather than re-approved, the original 600 Fazer is one I can think of and these 2 are already victims.
http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-general-n...
DanGPR said:
Noise and emissions.
Euro4 emissions limits are HALF what Euro3 was, hence manufacturers having to make the engine run leaner and thus not at "optimum" air fuel ratio for power/ smoothness.
A decat and a map will broadly see power and response back at where it should be.
Are the MOT laws staying the same or will the decat be a fail on a Euro 4 bike?Euro4 emissions limits are HALF what Euro3 was, hence manufacturers having to make the engine run leaner and thus not at "optimum" air fuel ratio for power/ smoothness.
A decat and a map will broadly see power and response back at where it should be.
998420 said:
Funny how when Volkswagen do similar tricks with their cars they are criminal pariahs, yet bike manufacturers can do this and all is cool...
Not quite the same as the VW scandal. These cars were programmed to recognise when the car was being tested, and run completely differently than they did under normal use.The fact the OP raises the question why do new bikes run at bit s
t at low RPM proves the point.Edited by shielsy on Friday 6th January 22:28
From what i can understand is that currently euro4 high performance bikes A3 (L3e-A3 and L4e-A3) are exempt from anti-tampering measures relating to the alteration of the power train. i.e. stopping you altering stuff on the bike to increase power/alter emissions.
A1 and A2 bikes are a grey area - but i have not read into it.
http://www.mag-uk.org/en/campaignsdetail/a7059
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/...
Page 17.
1. Vehicle manufacturers shall equip L-category vehicles with
the exception of subcategories L3e-A3 and L4e-A3, with
designated features to prevent tampering of a vehicle’s powertrain,
by means of a series of technical requirements and specifications
with the aim:
(a) to prevent modifications that may prejudice safety, in
particular by increasing vehicle performance through
tampering with the powertrain in order to increase the
maximum torque and/or power and/or maximum design
vehicle speed which have been duly established during the
type-approval procedure as followed by the manufacturer of
the vehicle; and/or
(b) to prevent damage to the environment.
4. Without prejudice to paragraph 1, in order to avoid modifications
or adjustments with adverse effects on the functional
safety or on the environmental performance of the vehicle, the
manufacturer shall endeavour, through the use of best engineering
practice, to prevent such modifications or adjustments
from being technically possible, unless such modifications or
adjustments are explicitly declared and contained in the
information folder and thus covered by the type-approval.
Meaning, although i could be very wrong... unrestricted bigger bikes will not be required to follow emission tests as they can be altered without issue to increase power and subsequently emissions.
But in reality, who knows - the EU might release a directive to ensure that big bikes must stay below a certain emissions threshold even on altered bikes.
A1 and A2 bikes are a grey area - but i have not read into it.
http://www.mag-uk.org/en/campaignsdetail/a7059
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/...
Page 17.
1. Vehicle manufacturers shall equip L-category vehicles with
the exception of subcategories L3e-A3 and L4e-A3, with
designated features to prevent tampering of a vehicle’s powertrain,
by means of a series of technical requirements and specifications
with the aim:
(a) to prevent modifications that may prejudice safety, in
particular by increasing vehicle performance through
tampering with the powertrain in order to increase the
maximum torque and/or power and/or maximum design
vehicle speed which have been duly established during the
type-approval procedure as followed by the manufacturer of
the vehicle; and/or
(b) to prevent damage to the environment.
4. Without prejudice to paragraph 1, in order to avoid modifications
or adjustments with adverse effects on the functional
safety or on the environmental performance of the vehicle, the
manufacturer shall endeavour, through the use of best engineering
practice, to prevent such modifications or adjustments
from being technically possible, unless such modifications or
adjustments are explicitly declared and contained in the
information folder and thus covered by the type-approval.
Meaning, although i could be very wrong... unrestricted bigger bikes will not be required to follow emission tests as they can be altered without issue to increase power and subsequently emissions.
But in reality, who knows - the EU might release a directive to ensure that big bikes must stay below a certain emissions threshold even on altered bikes.
Edited by BobSaunders on Friday 6th January 23:07
Edited by BobSaunders on Saturday 7th January 10:04
shielsy said:
998420 said:
Funny how when Volkswagen do similar tricks with their cars they are criminal pariahs, yet bike manufacturers can do this and all is cool...
Not quite the same as the VW scandal. These cars were programmed to recognise when the car was being tested, and run completely differently than they did under normal use.The fact the OP raises the question why do new bikes run at bit s
t at low RPM proves the point.Edited by shielsy on Friday 6th January 22:28
Edited by BobSaunders on Friday 6th January 23:06
myvision said:
DanGPR said:
Noise and emissions.
Euro4 emissions limits are HALF what Euro3 was, hence manufacturers having to make the engine run leaner and thus not at "optimum" air fuel ratio for power/ smoothness.
A decat and a map will broadly see power and response back at where it should be.
Are the MOT laws staying the same or will the decat be a fail on a Euro 4 bike?Euro4 emissions limits are HALF what Euro3 was, hence manufacturers having to make the engine run leaner and thus not at "optimum" air fuel ratio for power/ smoothness.
A decat and a map will broadly see power and response back at where it should be.
sjtscott said:
Still currently no emissions testing for bikes.. All the exhaust has to do is be quiet enough in the opinion of the mot tester. Don't confuse what the EU stipulates to sell new vs what UK road legal requirements are for bikes.
And we are leaving the EU so what happens then ?? our own British standard ?? or will they just copy the Euro regs into uk law , or if as it seems we are more likely or future is more towards the commonwealth and north America etc their standards ??
powerstroke said:
sjtscott said:
Still currently no emissions testing for bikes.. All the exhaust has to do is be quiet enough in the opinion of the mot tester. Don't confuse what the EU stipulates to sell new vs what UK road legal requirements are for bikes.
And we are leaving the EU so what happens then ?? our own British standard ?? or will they just copy the Euro regs into uk law , or if as it seems we are more likely or future is more towards the commonwealth and north America etc their standards ??
simple as that. We may not have to comply with the regs come MOT time that others in Europe may have to. Possibly
powerstroke said:
And we are leaving the EU so what happens then ?? our own British standard ?? or will they just copy the Euro regs into uk law , or if as it seems
we are more likely or future is more towards the commonwealth and north America etc their standards ??
There's really only three global sets of standards.we are more likely or future is more towards the commonwealth and north America etc their standards ??
There's the Far Eastern set.
There's the North American set.
...and there's the UNECE set, which is rapidly becoming the global default set. Which is nothing to do with the EU - UNECE is the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe. AFAIA, we're not leaving the UN.
There was an interesting piece on this in MCN the other day here:
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2016/january/mc...
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2016/january/mc...
BobSaunders said:
Meaning, although i could be very wrong... unrestricted bigger bikes will not be required to follow emission tests as they can be altered without issue to increase power and subsequently emissions.
Hopefully that's the case Bob, but the quote below suggests longer term plans. Once bikes are continuously adjusting themselves I wouldn't be surprised if they do add emissions testing to the MOT as you suggested.mcn said:
bikes will also have to pass an evaporative emissions test, run onboard self-diagnostic systems, and come with a requirement for manufacturers to prove the bike will still pass the tests after a specified mileage
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