Can employer force you to stay on site during PAID break?
Discussion
irocfan said:
Petrolhead_Rich said:
This is the latest in a long line of globally introduced stupid rules (including the exact specification of cup we can drink from)
say what now???Yesterdays e-mail was the companies "Pokemon Go Policy", no really!
battered said:
Yeah, good luck with that one. The workround is above, the manager authorises him to leave site for 10 minutes, gives him a ticket, then the safety/clock issues are answered. If HR want to take on the manager for letting him leave site on a ticket, then they can come and have a go if they think they're hard enough.
Ironically it's the implementation of a new clocking in system which HR have direct access to thats causing all the fuss, previously we had a fob system on site which was managed locally, they put in a new fingerprint system about 6 weeks ago which HR manage and our local manager has to authorise, they called him asking why I had 8-12 minute unauthorised absences every day that he was authorising, he explained that I went for a sandwich and they said that wasn't allowed and that if he was found to be allowing an employee off site for their break, he would be "in trouble"Our HR department are a rule unto themselves and answer directly to our global headquarters in Germany, who probably have no idea what policies are in place in the UK business areas!
Hol said:
Having some principles to stick to is all well and good, but unless you have a better job lined up to go to now, its often better to play the HR game in the short term and wait it out, until someone either blinks, or a better job comes along
...
Buy your sandwiches for the next day on the way home from work, stick them in your fridge at home overnight and buy a sandwich sized coolbag to take them to work in.
Then spend ALL 20mins of your break, doing your own thing, until someone else volunteers to clock out and go to the shop every day.
Problem is I rather like my bacon, egg and tomato sandwich to be warm and with a runny egg! ...
Buy your sandwiches for the next day on the way home from work, stick them in your fridge at home overnight and buy a sandwich sized coolbag to take them to work in.
Then spend ALL 20mins of your break, doing your own thing, until someone else volunteers to clock out and go to the shop every day.
I do wonder if employers consider the cost of this kind of stuff in terms of the impact on morale as having staff who like and want to work for you is something quite difficult to put a price on IMO.
I would guess that someone did something wrong in the past so rather than deal with the issue it's seen as simpler to do a knee-jerk blanket ban.
Sounds like a pretty unpleasant working environment.
I would guess that someone did something wrong in the past so rather than deal with the issue it's seen as simpler to do a knee-jerk blanket ban.
Sounds like a pretty unpleasant working environment.
Anyway, Saga continued today, called into site managers office which lead to an interesting discussion where he basically agreed with me and apologised that there was nothing he can do, he thinks this and most of the other bulls
t that comes from corporate/HR/IT/H&S on a daily/weekly basis is also nonsense but he is powerless to change it and has to enforce it so he doesn't get into trouble!
On the plus side, there may be a position being "created" for me in a related company that we use for specialist work who seem keen to steal me away, so we'll see what happens.
Thanks PH as ever for your advice
t that comes from corporate/HR/IT/H&S on a daily/weekly basis is also nonsense but he is powerless to change it and has to enforce it so he doesn't get into trouble!On the plus side, there may be a position being "created" for me in a related company that we use for specialist work who seem keen to steal me away, so we'll see what happens.
Thanks PH as ever for your advice
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I do wonder if employers consider the cost of this kind of stuff in terms of the impact on morale as having staff who like and want to work for you is something quite difficult to put a price on IMO.
I would guess that someone did something wrong in the past so rather than deal with the issue it's seen as simpler to do a knee-jerk blanket ban.
Sounds like a pretty unpleasant working environment.
It's crap and out of 30 employees I'll be #4 to leave in 3 years on a site that has very low staff turnover, most staff are also looking for work now and are equally pissed off. Company as a whole globally has very high staff turnover and online "rate my employer" reviews are pretty much all terrible mirroring our daily complaints in the UK sites.I would guess that someone did something wrong in the past so rather than deal with the issue it's seen as simpler to do a knee-jerk blanket ban.
Sounds like a pretty unpleasant working environment.
As a mere worker ant I cannot landscape the North Yorkshire moors alone, so I may as well move onto a smaller nest where I'm valued! To these guys I'm just a number!
Countdown said:
Was the fob system being abused?
No, not at all, the replacement was purely part of a centralisation of all HR services and is exactly the same system used globally (or will be by 2020 when our IT centralisation scheme is finished (more likely to be 2030, by which point it will all be obsolete!
))Incidentally, most days I do anything upto 45 minutes unpaid overtime too in order to try to get stuff working for the night shift (maintenance engineer), so as that has now stopped (I'm working to rule), then thats on average 2-3 hours a week of my time they have lost and upto 32 hours of downtime they have potentially lost, all to keep me on site!
battered said:
It's not about being Dickensian, it's about knowing where people are. If there's a fire the forst thing the fire brigade ask is "who's in the building?" The fire warden's job is to do a head count and account for all the bodies. If one of them is in the butty shop but still on the clock as "on site" then I don't want to be the firelighter sent into the burning building to "rescue" him.
Hmmm, not sure about offices/factories but in schools the firemen that turn up aren't interested in your fire wardens register, they check buildings themselves to be sure.Petrolhead_Rich said:
It's crap and out of 30 employees I'll be #4 to leave in 3 years on a site that has very low staff turnover, most staff are also looking for work now and are equally pissed off. Company as a whole globally has very high staff turnover and online "rate my employer" reviews are pretty much all terrible mirroring our daily complaints in the UK sites.
As a mere worker ant I cannot landscape the North Yorkshire moors alone, so I may as well move onto a smaller nest where I'm valued! To these guys I'm just a number!
4 out of 30 leaving in 3 years wouldn't be considered a massive rate of attrition unfortunately, if it was that many in a year then it may be seen differently.As a mere worker ant I cannot landscape the North Yorkshire moors alone, so I may as well move onto a smaller nest where I'm valued! To these guys I'm just a number!
Grunt Futtock said:
battered said:
It's not about being Dickensian, it's about knowing where people are. If there's a fire the forst thing the fire brigade ask is "who's in the building?" The fire warden's job is to do a head count and account for all the bodies. If one of them is in the butty shop but still on the clock as "on site" then I don't want to be the firelighter sent into the burning building to "rescue" him.
Hmmm, not sure about offices/factories but in schools the firemen that turn up aren't interested in your fire wardens register, they check buildings themselves to be sure.Petrolhead_Rich said:
Countdown said:
Was the fob system being abused?
No, not at all, the replacement was purely part of a centralisation of all HR services and is exactly the same system used globally (or will be by 2020 when our IT centralisation scheme is finished (more likely to be 2030, by which point it will all be obsolete!))Incidentally, most days I do anything upto 45 minutes unpaid overtime too in order to try to get stuff working for the night shift (maintenance engineer), so as that has now stopped (I'm working to rule), then thats on average 2-3 hours a week of my time they have lost and upto 32 hours of downtime they have potentially lost, all to keep me on site!
In the past I've known HR to impose strict rules on everybody simply because 1 or 2 people "take the proverbial" and their immediate line managers aren't able to make them behave. The kind of staff who leave at 4 o'clock on the dot and then bh about other staff getting preferential treatment.Yep, fire registers are a thing of the past, fire extinguishers likewise have gone the way of hose reels and are in most cases not required, staff shouldn't be fighting fires. The majority of fire 'rules' now for buildings as far as im aware are well lit and signed routes out of the building.
The extinguishers we have in our vast buildings are primarily for the use of fire fighters.
The extinguishers we have in our vast buildings are primarily for the use of fire fighters.
mph1977 said:
paid breaks are somewhat discretionary and you cvan be required to remain available , this is what all the st fights and tabloid mud slinging over ambulance crews on UNpaid breaks not being alerted to calls came from.
Oh yes. The media and the public seem to think crews should never eat or pee, just work continously for 12+ hours...t fights and tabloid mud slinging over ambulance crews on UNpaid breaks not being alerted to calls came from. Ok, I'm guessing this 20 minute break is a contractual "perk" as the WTR just states for a 20 minute break and doesn't specify if it's paid, or unpaid.
The WTR S12 (Rest Breaks) states;
(3) Subject to the provisions of any applicable collective agreement or workforce agreement, the rest break provided for in paragraph (1) is an uninterrupted period of not less than 20 minutes, and the worker is entitled to spend it away from his workstation if he has one.
So in the absence of any specific language in your contract as to this paid break, you should be entitled to spend those 20 minutes doing whatever you want, wherever you want - as long as it's away from your workstation, and as long as you return there when those 20 minutes are up.
I'd fire that back at HR if there's no specific restrictions in your contract (and if there are, I'd be tempted to reject those based upon custom & practice now, and also based on your statutory rights in the WTR).
If they want to get petty about such things, then just make sure you take the full 20mins, and leave at the end of your shift. If things start to get behind, it's not your fault - you can simply point the finger at a petty HR dept.
I'd also raise this as a formal grievance against the HR dept - they'll *love* that.
The WTR S12 (Rest Breaks) states;
(3) Subject to the provisions of any applicable collective agreement or workforce agreement, the rest break provided for in paragraph (1) is an uninterrupted period of not less than 20 minutes, and the worker is entitled to spend it away from his workstation if he has one.
So in the absence of any specific language in your contract as to this paid break, you should be entitled to spend those 20 minutes doing whatever you want, wherever you want - as long as it's away from your workstation, and as long as you return there when those 20 minutes are up.
I'd fire that back at HR if there's no specific restrictions in your contract (and if there are, I'd be tempted to reject those based upon custom & practice now, and also based on your statutory rights in the WTR).
If they want to get petty about such things, then just make sure you take the full 20mins, and leave at the end of your shift. If things start to get behind, it's not your fault - you can simply point the finger at a petty HR dept.
I'd also raise this as a formal grievance against the HR dept - they'll *love* that.
battered said:
55palfers said:
Has your company been mentioned in any Dickens novels?
It's not about being Dickensian, it's about knowing where people are. If there's a fire the forst thing the fire brigade ask is "who's in the building?" The fire warden's job is to do a head count and account for all the bodies. If one of them is in the butty shop but still on the clock as "on site" then I don't want to be the firelighter sent into the burning building to "rescue" him.It's a paid break. Either get a ticket to leave site or get your butty beforehand. A reasonable line manager will do the former, I would.
Cyberprog said:
Ok, I'm guessing this 20 minute break is a contractual "perk" as the WTR just states for a 20 minute break and doesn't specify if it's paid, or unpaid.
The WTR S12 (Rest Breaks) states;
(3) Subject to the provisions of any applicable collective agreement or workforce agreement, the rest break provided for in paragraph (1) is an uninterrupted period of not less than 20 minutes, and the worker is entitled to spend it away from his workstation if he has one.
So in the absence of any specific language in your contract as to this paid break, you should be entitled to spend those 20 minutes doing whatever you want, wherever you want - as long as it's away from your workstation, and as long as you return there when those 20 minutes are up.
I'd fire that back at HR if there's no specific restrictions in your contract (and if there are, I'd be tempted to reject those based upon custom & practice now, and also based on your statutory rights in the WTR).
If they want to get petty about such things, then just make sure you take the full 20mins, and leave at the end of your shift. If things start to get behind, it's not your fault - you can simply point the finger at a petty HR dept.
I'd also raise this as a formal grievance against the HR dept - they'll *love* that.
lovely line of logic there, except of course unless the working day is 13 hours theunpaid lunch break has covered those lines of argument ... The WTR S12 (Rest Breaks) states;
(3) Subject to the provisions of any applicable collective agreement or workforce agreement, the rest break provided for in paragraph (1) is an uninterrupted period of not less than 20 minutes, and the worker is entitled to spend it away from his workstation if he has one.
So in the absence of any specific language in your contract as to this paid break, you should be entitled to spend those 20 minutes doing whatever you want, wherever you want - as long as it's away from your workstation, and as long as you return there when those 20 minutes are up.
I'd fire that back at HR if there's no specific restrictions in your contract (and if there are, I'd be tempted to reject those based upon custom & practice now, and also based on your statutory rights in the WTR).
If they want to get petty about such things, then just make sure you take the full 20mins, and leave at the end of your shift. If things start to get behind, it's not your fault - you can simply point the finger at a petty HR dept.
I'd also raise this as a formal grievance against the HR dept - they'll *love* that.
48Valves said:
battered said:
55palfers said:
Has your company been mentioned in any Dickens novels?
It's not about being Dickensian, it's about knowing where people are. If there's a fire the forst thing the fire brigade ask is "who's in the building?" The fire warden's job is to do a head count and account for all the bodies. If one of them is in the butty shop but still on the clock as "on site" then I don't want to be the firelighter sent into the burning building to "rescue" him.It's a paid break. Either get a ticket to leave site or get your butty beforehand. A reasonable line manager will do the former, I would.
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