Forced to sign new contract for lower pay - or leave.
Discussion
Hi all, this isn't for me as I work for myself, but asking advice for a friend who was a work colleague at my last place of employment.
Basically it's a housing association, and they have to cut budgets all over to survive the new government policies on housing and rental income etc.
The staff are in the firing line as they are one of the biggest costs naturally.
My friend worked as a housing officer on around £28,000 per annum as did about 7 others. They have all been told that they aren't housing officers anymore, but will be doing seperare parts of a housing officer job each, so one will do lettings only, one will do the rent and chase debts, one will do the leasehold etc.
The company has said they will no longer be 'housing officers' but 'lettings assistant' etc each with a different title.
The new salary for the positions is £23,000. They have been told they can either sign the new contract for less money or resign.
My friend has worked there for about 14 years and the others are similar, some have been housing officers for over 20 years.
Naturally they don't want to have a £5000 pay cut as you can imagine. The workload between them all will remain the same, they will just being doing it differently.
Friend has refused to sign the new contract and had been told she will likely be dismissed.
Any thoughts on this?
Basically it's a housing association, and they have to cut budgets all over to survive the new government policies on housing and rental income etc.
The staff are in the firing line as they are one of the biggest costs naturally.
My friend worked as a housing officer on around £28,000 per annum as did about 7 others. They have all been told that they aren't housing officers anymore, but will be doing seperare parts of a housing officer job each, so one will do lettings only, one will do the rent and chase debts, one will do the leasehold etc.
The company has said they will no longer be 'housing officers' but 'lettings assistant' etc each with a different title.
The new salary for the positions is £23,000. They have been told they can either sign the new contract for less money or resign.
My friend has worked there for about 14 years and the others are similar, some have been housing officers for over 20 years.
Naturally they don't want to have a £5000 pay cut as you can imagine. The workload between them all will remain the same, they will just being doing it differently.
Friend has refused to sign the new contract and had been told she will likely be dismissed.
Any thoughts on this?
At a guess the HA are making the old roles redundant and replacing them with materially different and simpler roles (narrower responsibilities, therefore less pay). The existing staffs' roles are redundant and before making the staff redundant the HA is seeing if they can be found different jobs within the HA. Lo and behold, they do have some suitable vacancies and they are being offered them. So, your friend can either accept the new job or be made redundant from the old one. If made redundant, no doubt they'd be entitled to some degree of redundancy payments. You mentioned they'd been asked to resign if they didn't accept the new job. Unless that comes with a severance package equal to or better than whatever they'd get as a redundancy payment, I wouldn't have thought resigning was a good idea.
As far as I understand it they haven't been offered redundancy.
Several of them, including my mate, would actually take the redundancy and go work elsewhere if it was being offered, as they believe from reading their contracts that it would be a good few thousand each, £10,000 upwards in some cases
Several of them, including my mate, would actually take the redundancy and go work elsewhere if it was being offered, as they believe from reading their contracts that it would be a good few thousand each, £10,000 upwards in some cases
Edited by NinjaPower on Tuesday 13th September 13:16
anothernameitist said:
Do they want £23k or nothing.
Accept contract and get out.
happening all over with anything Government funded
Well they would prefer to keep the salary they signed up for years ago. Some of them went back to university to do degrees and endless courses in their own time specifically so they could obtain the role and the salary.Accept contract and get out.
happening all over with anything Government funded
If the company really wants them out to save money, then fair enough, but I would have thought redundancy payments are in order?
And they aren't directly government funded anymore and haven't been for many years. It's simply caps on what they are allowed to charge in rent imposed by the government.
ATG said:
Speaking entirely as a layman, as far as the HA is concerned how can this be anything other than a decision between offering them a new role or making them redundant? If your friend refuses to accept the new job, what else are the HA going to do other than make her redundant?
I agree, and she would take redundancy.But that's not being offered seemingly. Just accept the new role and salary or they will dismiss her.
Have they put all this in writing?
Regardless of what they are saying the actual story is they are changing the role to one of less money so they are making the current one redundant.
Your friend has a simple choice.
Accept the lesser role with less money, or leave. However "leave" isn't that simple. It's called redundancy. 14 years service (if under 40) = 14 x £479 (min) Plus notice period (which in this case is 12 weeks money).
Tell your mate to call ACAS for advice.
Regardless of what they are saying the actual story is they are changing the role to one of less money so they are making the current one redundant.
Your friend has a simple choice.
Accept the lesser role with less money, or leave. However "leave" isn't that simple. It's called redundancy. 14 years service (if under 40) = 14 x £479 (min) Plus notice period (which in this case is 12 weeks money).
Tell your mate to call ACAS for advice.
Are you sure it's dismissal and not statutory redundancy only? I had something similar, in the private sector (2008, glad the HAs are finally catching up) and we were told sign the contract or take basic redundancy without any extra incentive to take it offered. 3 people (out of my dept of 200) didn't sign and at least one of them was judged worth enough to the business to retain on her old T&Cs, although it was very hush hush.
If they feel so strongly it would be worth getting external advice (union, Citizen's Advice or legal cover on their insurance?). It's not unknown for organisations, particularly HAs to get HR stuff like this wrong.
If they feel so strongly it would be worth getting external advice (union, Citizen's Advice or legal cover on their insurance?). It's not unknown for organisations, particularly HAs to get HR stuff like this wrong.
NinjaPower said:
ATG said:
Speaking entirely as a layman, as far as the HA is concerned how can this be anything other than a decision between offering them a new role or making them redundant? If your friend refuses to accept the new job, what else are the HA going to do other than make her redundant?
I agree, and she would take redundancy.But that's not being offered seemingly. Just accept the new role and salary or they will dismiss her.
TX.
Sir Bagalot said:
Have they put all this in writing?
Regardless of what they are saying the actual story is they are changing the role to one of less money so they are making the current one redundant.
Your friend has a simple choice.
Accept the lesser role with less money, or leave. However "leave" isn't that simple. It's called redundancy. 14 years service (if under 40) = 14 x £479 (min) Plus notice period (which in this case is 12 weeks money).
Tell your mate to call ACAS for advice.
Close but no cigar... £479 is the MAXIMUM payment per year of service not the minimum (there isn't a minimum) - you get a weeks pay for each year of service up to a maximum of £479 for each year. However that's the statutory amount and the employees contract may give them more.Regardless of what they are saying the actual story is they are changing the role to one of less money so they are making the current one redundant.
Your friend has a simple choice.
Accept the lesser role with less money, or leave. However "leave" isn't that simple. It's called redundancy. 14 years service (if under 40) = 14 x £479 (min) Plus notice period (which in this case is 12 weeks money).
Tell your mate to call ACAS for advice.
Constructive Dismissal,
https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/unfair-and-constructi...
I had someone forced to resign for trying to do it too me.
https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/unfair-and-constructi...
I had someone forced to resign for trying to do it too me.
I don't think it's quite as simple as a redundancy. If the company wants the employees to sign new contracts and they don't, maybe they would then go down the redundancy route.
But the point about restructuring the work is likely to be a cunning wheeze to justify the redundancy. If the work load across the team is the same and the jobs being done are the same and everyone is in the same boat then I'd think a tribunal would rule that there isn't a true redundancy situation. The business would need to show a business justification for the restructure, but it sounds like the justification is only that it saves money by paying people less.
I can't see how the end result is a fair dismissal regardless of whether a redundancy process is followed or not.
Professional advice required I'd say.
But the point about restructuring the work is likely to be a cunning wheeze to justify the redundancy. If the work load across the team is the same and the jobs being done are the same and everyone is in the same boat then I'd think a tribunal would rule that there isn't a true redundancy situation. The business would need to show a business justification for the restructure, but it sounds like the justification is only that it saves money by paying people less.
I can't see how the end result is a fair dismissal regardless of whether a redundancy process is followed or not.
Professional advice required I'd say.
timbo999 said:
Close but no cigar... £479 is the MAXIMUM payment per year of service not the minimum (there isn't a minimum) - you get a weeks pay for each year of service up to a maximum of £479 for each year. However that's the statutory amount and the employees contract may give them more.
Close but no cigar, half a week’s pay for each full year you were under 22
one week’s pay for each full year you were 22 or older, but under 41
one and half week’s pay for each full year you were 41 or older
Length of service is capped at 20 years.
From what you have described, her role is being made redundant.. Hence redundancy.
It sounds like they are attempting to avoid paying redundancy. Personally I wouldn't sign the new contract, but it depends on her financial situation as to how long she can survive without a job ( or job seekers+housing benefit.)
It sounds like they are attempting to avoid paying redundancy. Personally I wouldn't sign the new contract, but it depends on her financial situation as to how long she can survive without a job ( or job seekers+housing benefit.)
NinjaPower said:
Based on those figures then they would have to pay her about £8100 to make her redundant.
As I mentioned earlier, she would happily accept redundancy money and look for work elsewhere, but that hasn't been offered.
It does sound an awful lot like a redundancy. Is there a workplace union?As I mentioned earlier, she would happily accept redundancy money and look for work elsewhere, but that hasn't been offered.
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