HR mucking me about...
Discussion
I applied for a position with an engineering company as a Technician. The job was close to where I live and although I have an Engineering degree and possess a good amount of experience in related industries. I was happy to 'get my foot in the door' and in due course if an engineers role became available I would certainly be very interested to move into that.
I was interviewed several times by different people within the organisation and the interviews seemed to go very well. The subject of pay and 'how much would I like' came up. As I mentioned I have moved into his line of work but have several years worth of relevant experience and have until recently been working offshore where pay rates do not translate very well at all to jobs ashore.
I asked for some guidance on what the pay scales commensurate with that post would be and I did not get any assistance at all!!
I found a technicians role advertised for a competitor with the pay band stated as being between £23,000 - £29,000. I used this info and I requested £27,000 from my prospective employer.
My first day was last Monday and I was asked to sign my contract of employment with the job title 'Engineer', not technician. I queried this before signing and I was assured by the HR girl that the terms Technician and Engineer were used interchangeably within the organisation and that the job was the same.....so I signed a 'provisional contract of employment'.
I go to meet my new colleagues and it transpires that the roles of Engineer and Technician are not interchangeable as suggested!!!!!
One of the Engineers has handed his notice in, the company have seen that I have the correct background to step into his role (which is nice in some respects).
I have been asked to take on a role with more responsibility, costing, meeting clients, analysis, design and lots of report writing which are tasks that do not fall within the role of a Technician.
With this change in role I asked if I was eligible for a higher level of remuneration and I was told it was not possible.
I asked to see a job description for the role of Engineer, I was supplied with a very vague document which does not specify the additional responsibilities listed above but they are in fact part of my new role and are daily tasks that the engineers presently undertake. I asked why they had changed the title when they considered the roles the same and I received the reply "because of your degree and years of experience".
Using the same organisation which I used to indicate suitable pay scales as reference I find that they are offering 'Engineers' between £5,000 and £12,000 more than what I am presently being paid.
I like the place and the guys I am working with but unless something can be resolved I feel that it is something I shouldn't compromise on.
To summarise:
1. HR do not acknowledge that the Engineers role and the Technicians role differ.
2. They are unable to supply a detailed job description/person spec for the role of Engineer.
Does anyone have any thoughts or experiences to share
I was interviewed several times by different people within the organisation and the interviews seemed to go very well. The subject of pay and 'how much would I like' came up. As I mentioned I have moved into his line of work but have several years worth of relevant experience and have until recently been working offshore where pay rates do not translate very well at all to jobs ashore.
I asked for some guidance on what the pay scales commensurate with that post would be and I did not get any assistance at all!!
I found a technicians role advertised for a competitor with the pay band stated as being between £23,000 - £29,000. I used this info and I requested £27,000 from my prospective employer.
My first day was last Monday and I was asked to sign my contract of employment with the job title 'Engineer', not technician. I queried this before signing and I was assured by the HR girl that the terms Technician and Engineer were used interchangeably within the organisation and that the job was the same.....so I signed a 'provisional contract of employment'.
I go to meet my new colleagues and it transpires that the roles of Engineer and Technician are not interchangeable as suggested!!!!!
One of the Engineers has handed his notice in, the company have seen that I have the correct background to step into his role (which is nice in some respects).
I have been asked to take on a role with more responsibility, costing, meeting clients, analysis, design and lots of report writing which are tasks that do not fall within the role of a Technician.
With this change in role I asked if I was eligible for a higher level of remuneration and I was told it was not possible.
I asked to see a job description for the role of Engineer, I was supplied with a very vague document which does not specify the additional responsibilities listed above but they are in fact part of my new role and are daily tasks that the engineers presently undertake. I asked why they had changed the title when they considered the roles the same and I received the reply "because of your degree and years of experience".
Using the same organisation which I used to indicate suitable pay scales as reference I find that they are offering 'Engineers' between £5,000 and £12,000 more than what I am presently being paid.
I like the place and the guys I am working with but unless something can be resolved I feel that it is something I shouldn't compromise on.
To summarise:
1. HR do not acknowledge that the Engineers role and the Technicians role differ.
2. They are unable to supply a detailed job description/person spec for the role of Engineer.
Does anyone have any thoughts or experiences to share
I'd feel bad for the guys I'm working with. The team consists of 6 including myself. With one leaving and if things dont work out for me I'll be going too it will hit them pretty hard I should imagine.
This doesnt change my stance but its a shame when a potentially decent workplace is mucked up by poor HR.
This doesnt change my stance but its a shame when a potentially decent workplace is mucked up by poor HR.
Tricky one.
I'd perhaps position it as you're happy to take the role on the technician salary on a provisional basis, but with an agreement that after 3/6 months of you doing the engineer role, you have a performance review and if they are happy with your performance then they move you to the engineer position with full salary/benefits etc.
Then you can say to them that if after 6 months they're not happy with your performance then it'd be better for everyone involved that you leave anyway. Forces their hand - either you're good enough for the engineer role (in which case you should be paid as such) or you're not (in which case you shouldn't be doing it).
I'd perhaps position it as you're happy to take the role on the technician salary on a provisional basis, but with an agreement that after 3/6 months of you doing the engineer role, you have a performance review and if they are happy with your performance then they move you to the engineer position with full salary/benefits etc.
Then you can say to them that if after 6 months they're not happy with your performance then it'd be better for everyone involved that you leave anyway. Forces their hand - either you're good enough for the engineer role (in which case you should be paid as such) or you're not (in which case you shouldn't be doing it).
HR dont recognise it as a different function
You have a banana and an apple.. HR just see two bananas
You have a banana and an apple.. HR just see two bananas
brickwall said:
Tricky one.
I'd perhaps position it as you're happy to take the role on the technician salary on a provisional basis, but with an agreement that after 3/6 months of you doing the engineer role, you have a performance review and if they are happy with your performance then they move you to the engineer position with full salary/benefits etc.
Then you can say to them that if after 6 months they're not happy with your performance then it'd be better for everyone involved that you leave anyway. Forces their hand - either you're good enough for the engineer role (in which case you should be paid as such) or you're not (in which case you shouldn't be doing it).
I'd perhaps position it as you're happy to take the role on the technician salary on a provisional basis, but with an agreement that after 3/6 months of you doing the engineer role, you have a performance review and if they are happy with your performance then they move you to the engineer position with full salary/benefits etc.
Then you can say to them that if after 6 months they're not happy with your performance then it'd be better for everyone involved that you leave anyway. Forces their hand - either you're good enough for the engineer role (in which case you should be paid as such) or you're not (in which case you shouldn't be doing it).
HR in my experience don't see people as much more than headcount, so the HR girl probably didn't have a clue about the difference between Technician and Engineer. Especially as the term "engineer" is not protected in this country so we have "Sky Engineers" plugging your set-top box in.
Anyway, a question I think useful to ask. Are you Chartered? Incorporated? Will you be signing off designs as the solitary authority? Do you need professional liability insurance? If you are not already Chartered, is the company providing you with the necessary structure to follow SARTOR 3 (or whatever it is now)?
If the answer to the above is no, then I would consider that the HR girl was fairly on the money and would bet that the company has technicians doing "engineering" and "engineers" doing technician roles. I'd also look at the other job.
If the answer to the above is yes then you have a good case for them providing an explicit job description with the exact definition of the extent of your liability and how they will support you in being in that responsible position and a clear set of milestones - e.g. six monthly pay rise linked to chargeability or value of projects delivered, achievement of qualifications etc.
Don't worry about your not-yet-colleagues, think only of yourself at this point. Particularly if you are being lined up to do a CEng job for EngTech wages.
Anyway, a question I think useful to ask. Are you Chartered? Incorporated? Will you be signing off designs as the solitary authority? Do you need professional liability insurance? If you are not already Chartered, is the company providing you with the necessary structure to follow SARTOR 3 (or whatever it is now)?
If the answer to the above is no, then I would consider that the HR girl was fairly on the money and would bet that the company has technicians doing "engineering" and "engineers" doing technician roles. I'd also look at the other job.
If the answer to the above is yes then you have a good case for them providing an explicit job description with the exact definition of the extent of your liability and how they will support you in being in that responsible position and a clear set of milestones - e.g. six monthly pay rise linked to chargeability or value of projects delivered, achievement of qualifications etc.
Don't worry about your not-yet-colleagues, think only of yourself at this point. Particularly if you are being lined up to do a CEng job for EngTech wages.
It sounds like you've got the job you were prepared to work your way up to straight away. Unfortunately you don't have the salary to match the title.
1. You could go back to the drawing board, and hope to find another technicians job (for around the same salary you currently have) and hope they they notice you are good at your job and give you a chance to move up the ladder, probably with no salary adjustment, for that is how a lot of engineering companies work.
2. Alternatively you could get your head down and show your current employer what you can do, try and negotiate a salary increase at the end of your review period. If you can't you can go back to step 1 or get some experience under your belt and think about your next move a few years down the line.
Personally I would stick with it. A bird in the hand and all that...
One last thing if you are very money focused engineering may not be for you.
1. You could go back to the drawing board, and hope to find another technicians job (for around the same salary you currently have) and hope they they notice you are good at your job and give you a chance to move up the ladder, probably with no salary adjustment, for that is how a lot of engineering companies work.
2. Alternatively you could get your head down and show your current employer what you can do, try and negotiate a salary increase at the end of your review period. If you can't you can go back to step 1 or get some experience under your belt and think about your next move a few years down the line.
Personally I would stick with it. A bird in the hand and all that...
One last thing if you are very money focused engineering may not be for you.
Think about what they might be thinking. There are two options, I suppose:
1. We need an engineer and we have a technician who can do the job, but he's on a lower salary so we can replace the guy leaving on the cheap. Yay!
2. We need an engineer and we have a technician who can do the job, but he doesn't seem to have the right experience just yet. Let's give him a shot and see what he can do.
It's easy to assume that employers are evil and will always have the mindset of 1. However it could be that they are pushing you on a bit, so in your shoes I would make it clear that you are delighted with the opportunity and hope to demonstrate your ability in the role. Then 3-6 months down the line ask for an appraisal; if all is going well then point out that you are still on technician wages and would like to review that, as you are enjoying the job/ are passionate about the company etc.
If you go to war now then you are likely to appear ungrateful and greedy; I'm sure that's not the case, but it's difficult to have the conversation without coming across that way.
1. We need an engineer and we have a technician who can do the job, but he's on a lower salary so we can replace the guy leaving on the cheap. Yay!
2. We need an engineer and we have a technician who can do the job, but he doesn't seem to have the right experience just yet. Let's give him a shot and see what he can do.
It's easy to assume that employers are evil and will always have the mindset of 1. However it could be that they are pushing you on a bit, so in your shoes I would make it clear that you are delighted with the opportunity and hope to demonstrate your ability in the role. Then 3-6 months down the line ask for an appraisal; if all is going well then point out that you are still on technician wages and would like to review that, as you are enjoying the job/ are passionate about the company etc.
If you go to war now then you are likely to appear ungrateful and greedy; I'm sure that's not the case, but it's difficult to have the conversation without coming across that way.
Stick to your guns IMO.
It's great you can do the engineer role right away (saves a stint as techy), but they should pay you more.
Be careful not to overvalue yourself though. The mere fact youd take a tech role suggests you're early career or not a massive go-getter, either of which mean other people out there would be worth more than you, so don't go for too much, be realistic and show comparators to justify your request.
Stu
It's great you can do the engineer role right away (saves a stint as techy), but they should pay you more.
Be careful not to overvalue yourself though. The mere fact youd take a tech role suggests you're early career or not a massive go-getter, either of which mean other people out there would be worth more than you, so don't go for too much, be realistic and show comparators to justify your request.
Stu
I'm 34 I've been in Engineering 10 years. I've had design roles, project management experience of safety critical items to the value of £5m including the overseeing of validation and testing.
I took the job as tech to move up as I thought the work they did was interesting and something I can move up from both in pay and responsibility.
I took the job as tech to move up as I thought the work they did was interesting and something I can move up from both in pay and responsibility.
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