Teacher Training - travel costs from HMRC?

[Vron]

Hi,

Can anyone advise.

If you are on a teacher training course there are two options offered for a particular subject. A bursary or a salaried route. Both options include being sent to two schools to train. You are classed as a full time student.

Can you claim mileage to the training placements from HMRC as it is not a permanent place of work or does being a 'student' negate this?

The trips could be around 60 miles a day depending on where you get sent.

Thanks.

[Eric Mc]

Pretty sure the answer is "No".

Is the training "wholly, exclusively AND NECESSARILY" part of your employment?

[Tampon]

Vron said:

Hi,

Can anyone advise.

If you are on a teacher training course there are two options offered for a particular subject. A bursary or a salaried route. Both options include being sent to two schools to train. You are classed as a full time student.

Can you claim mileage to the training placements from HMRC as it is not a permanent place of work or does being a 'student' negate this?

The trips could be around 60 miles a day depending on where you get sent.

Thanks.

No mate just finished my salaried history schools direct with lots of unsalaried students in uni (literally they pay £9k to work for a school for free at the end).

You can't claim it back. I was traveling 60 miles a day, 4 days a week, 120 miles one day a week.

Don't worry though once qualified you get the big bucks...

[rog007]

Tampon said:

Don't worry though once qualified you get the big bucks...

[Sheepshanks]

I don't see why you couldn't claim this.

The worst that could happen is they say "no".

[Eric Mc]

Sheepshanks said:

I don't see why you couldn't claim this.

The worst that could happen is they say "no".

You mean ATTEMPT to claim.

HMRC has quite detailed rules on when you can and can't claim "Travel Costs".

[Vron]

Eric Mc said:

Pretty sure the answer is "No".

Is the training "wholly, exclusively AND NECESSARILY" part of your employment?

That's the question. Technically you aren't employed if you are doing a PGCE but have the expenses of travelling to a (non fixed) place of work which is 'wholly, exclusively and necessarily' part of completing the course.

[Mr.Chips]

I'm pretty sure you won't be able to claim the travel expenses back. Generally speaking, most teacher training establishments suggest that students try to arrange accommodation as near as possible to where they will be doing their main teaching practice. This was the case when I did my training 25 years ago and the same still seems to apply when we get trainee teachers at my current school. You really don't want to be wasting too much time travelling when you are doing your teacher training, you will be way too busy working. A few years ago, I was the mentor for trainee teachers in the department where I work. One particular student was arriving at school absolutely shattered, his lesson preparation was terrible and he left school as soon as the bell went. During one of our meetings, it turned out he was commuting to school in Rugeley from Bolton every day. I suggested that in light of his tiredness and poor preparation he should move to be closer to school. This was endorsed by the teacher training college. He told me he had done this, but there was no improvement and when we found out that he had lied and was still travelling in from Bolton, he was dismissed and failed his teaching practice. Your teacher training year and your NQT year are among the most important years of your teaching career, so save yourself a lot of hassle and either move closer to where you will be working or choose a teacher training placement closer to home.
Good luck.

[Tampon]

Vron said:

That's the question. Technically you aren't employed if you are doing a PGCE but have the expenses of travelling to a (non fixed) place of work which is 'wholly, exclusively and necessarily' part of completing the course.

If you are salaried you will have a contract of employment with a school. You will have a PAYE number and it will be your place of work. Your second placement you will still be paid by the original school. You are still classed as a student as you are training at uni one day a week.

Non saleried your place of work is actually your place of study, you aren't employed by the school, rather you pay to train there 4 days a week and one day at uni. You are classed as a student.

Either way no claiming back I am afraid.

Seriously though, just keep thinking about mouchos mouchos deniros once you have your ticket...

[Sheepshanks]

Vron said:

Eric Mc said:

Pretty sure the answer is "No".

Is the training "wholly, exclusively AND NECESSARILY" part of your employment?

That's the question. Technically you aren't employed if you are doing a PGCE but have the expenses of travelling to a (non fixed) place of work which is 'wholly, exclusively and necessarily' part of completing the course.

Surely the answer to Eric's question has to be "yes"?

The main issue is whether the placement school is considered a permanent place of employment. If they "register" you and pay you from there then it probably is. If you continued to be paid remotely then I'd say it isn't.

My daughter did a similar kind of thing in reverse in the NHS - she was hospital based on a salary but travelled to a distant uni a couple of days per week. They paid her expenses, and the NHS is probably tighter than HMRC on these things.

I'd suggest giving HMRC a call (or use the online chat facility) and asking.

[Eric Mc]

Vron said:

Eric Mc said:

Pretty sure the answer is "No".

Is the training "wholly, exclusively AND NECESSARILY" part of your employment?

That's the question. Technically you aren't employed if you are doing a PGCE but have the expenses of travelling to a (non fixed) place of work which is 'wholly, exclusively and necessarily' part of completing the course.

What is your status when doing a PGCE?

Are you looked on as being Self Employed?

Do you know?

[Vron]

Eric Mc said:

Vron said:

Eric Mc said:

Pretty sure the answer is "No".

Is the training "wholly, exclusively AND NECESSARILY" part of your employment?

That's the question. Technically you aren't employed if you are doing a PGCE but have the expenses of travelling to a (non fixed) place of work which is 'wholly, exclusively and necessarily' part of completing the course.

What is your status when doing a PGCE?

Are you looked on as being Self Employed?

Do you know?

If you are salaried you are employed for a year as a PGCE 'student'. The travel to different schools is a fundamental for completing the PGCE. No, you are not looked on as self employed.

However, if you are employed as in the example above you will be PAYE. As you have to use your own car to travel to a different non-fixed place of work then you are entitled to claim the mileage allowance ? For example, the course is run from town 'A' 2 days a week but you are required during the year to travel to towns B and C 3 days a week then I don't see why you cannot claim for travel to towns B and C.

[Eric Mc]

Is attending a course at a college looked on "as a place of work"?

Is the attendance of this course a condition of the employment?

[Tampon]

Saleried means you are employed as a unqualified teacher. Not as a student. You can neogoatied what pay scale level you are on. I was able to be paid on level 3 due to my experince at the school, some were on full level 6 as they had been teaching already for years or the school really wanted them. You training e,prince will be very different to a non salery ed pace students t as you are expected to work form the off on a NQT timetable. Around 14-16 lessons in the 4 days at school.

Unsaleried is the normal route. They won't be employed and have hardly any timetable til after Xmas and then it builds to 8 lessons a week, norally supervised. They also are finished after the second placement, saleried continue til end of summer term.

If you want any advise you are more than welcome to message me.

[jkh112]

Vron said:

Can you claim mileage to the training placements from HMRC as it is not a permanent place of work or does being a 'student' negate this?


Thanks.

I am not trying to be a pedant, but my reading of your question seems to be that you think HMRC may pay mileage. They don't.
Employers pay mileage and at rates which comply with HMRC guidelines. If the mileage rate paid by the employer is less than the HMRC max rate then you may be able to claim back the tax (and only the tax) on the difference.

[Planet Claire]

I went back to uni in 2000 to do my PGCE and my recollection is that we did get paid for mileage to our placements. I remember this because the mileage claimed was the difference between the mileage to uni versus the mileage to school and as I lived in the same town as the uni campus I claimed full mileage costs. I'm sure this was all done through uni, I don't remember having anything to do with HMRC. Things may have changed in the intervening years though.

[Tampon]

Planet Claire said:

I went back to uni in 2000 to do my PGCE and my recollection is that we did get paid for mileage to our placements. I remember this because the mileage claimed was the difference between the mileage to uni versus the mileage to school and as I lived in the same town as the uni campus I claimed full mileage costs. I'm sure this was all done through uni, I don't remember having anything to do with HMRC. Things may have changed in the intervening years though.

Main difference nowdays is most people do "schools direct" which essential means your placements are your training provider not the uni. The uni just works in conjunction with them. Providing 1 days training a week at most.

[Sheepshanks]

Tampon said:

Main difference nowdays is most people do "schools direct" which essential means your placements are your training provider not the uni. The uni just works in conjunction with them. Providing 1 days training a week at most.

In that case you'd be able to claim for travel to uni.

By the way, the distance thing is irrelevant to HMRC tax refund claims - wherever you're travelling to doesn't have to be further away than your normal base.

[Tampon]

Sheepshanks said:

In that case you'd be able to claim for travel to uni.

By the way, the distance thing is irrelevant to HMRC tax refund claims - wherever you're travelling to doesn't have to be further away than your normal base.

You can't claim that either.

[Sheepshanks]

I'm surprised there isn't more discussion on the internet about this - all I can find with brief search is some trainees saying their uni's pay travel costs and some don't.

Is being salaried a new thing? I really don't see why it shouldn't be claimable from HMRC unless time at Uni, and each placement, are treated as separate jobs.

The danger is if you do claim, they're likely to just pay it whether it's valid or not. Hence my earlier suggestion to call HMRC and ask them.