Why is the recruitment process not working?
Discussion
Do car salepeople ask if what other cars you are looking at - yes
Do Estate agents ask you if you are looking at other properties - yes
Do most sales people in any capacity anywhere want to know what other companies/products/services you are looking at - yes
Its a filtering process. - if you are interviewing in multiple places it means 1. you are a serious job hunter. 2. we may need to tell the client to get a shift on if they want you. 3. it may mean you end with more than one offer.
4. You might be applying for other roles out of specialism, so I want to know what I am up against, if you're are an accountant, but interviewing for MD roles, I want to know !
How can I give you advice, or run a process if I am in the dark
Finally, if you went for an interview and didn't get - that IS a sales lead, and I am not sure I need to apologies for asking ?
Gargamel said:
Do car salepeople ask if what other cars you are looking at - yes
Do Estate agents ask you if you are looking at other properties - yes
Do most sales people in any capacity anywhere want to know what other companies/products/services you are looking at - yes
Its a filtering process. - if you are interviewing in multiple places it means 1. you are a serious job hunter. 2. we may need to tell the client to get a shift on if they want you. 3. it may mean you end with more than one offer.
4. You might be applying for other roles out of specialism, so I want to know what I am up against, if you're are an accountant, but interviewing for MD roles, I want to know !
How can I give you advice, or run a process if I am in the dark
Finally, if you went for an interview and didn't get - that IS a sales lead, and I am not sure I need to apologies for asking ?
Funny that most of the moans about recruitment agencies are from candidates, the people who pay nothing for the service.Do Estate agents ask you if you are looking at other properties - yes
Do most sales people in any capacity anywhere want to know what other companies/products/services you are looking at - yes
Its a filtering process. - if you are interviewing in multiple places it means 1. you are a serious job hunter. 2. we may need to tell the client to get a shift on if they want you. 3. it may mean you end with more than one offer.
4. You might be applying for other roles out of specialism, so I want to know what I am up against, if you're are an accountant, but interviewing for MD roles, I want to know !
How can I give you advice, or run a process if I am in the dark
Finally, if you went for an interview and didn't get - that IS a sales lead, and I am not sure I need to apologies for asking ?
Gargamel said:
Do car salepeople ask if what other cars you are looking at - yes
Do Estate agents ask you if you are looking at other properties - yes
Do most sales people in any capacity anywhere want to know what other companies/products/services you are looking at - yes
The other company/product/service isn't the "customer"Do Estate agents ask you if you are looking at other properties - yes
Do most sales people in any capacity anywhere want to know what other companies/products/services you are looking at - yes
I think more apt comparisons would be;
Do car salesmen ask other dealerships which customers have been making enquiries?
Do Estate agents ask other EAs which customers have been making enquiries?
Countdown said:
The other company/product/service isn't the "customer"
For the agency the person you refer to as the "customer" is paying nothing for the service received.One of the issues is that recruitment agencies are generally disallowed from charging fees to candidates (there are a few exceptions to this). This means that the fees are all paid by the employer.
So who is the agency working for?
Countdown said:
The other company/product/service isn't the "customer"
I think more apt comparisons would be;
Do car salesmen ask other dealerships which customers have been making enquiries?
Do Estate agents ask other EAs which customers have been making enquiries?
You aren't a customer.I think more apt comparisons would be;
Do car salesmen ask other dealerships which customers have been making enquiries?
Do Estate agents ask other EAs which customers have been making enquiries?
TIGA84 said:
Countdown said:
The other company/product/service isn't the "customer"
I think more apt comparisons would be;
Do car salesmen ask other dealerships which customers have been making enquiries?
Do Estate agents ask other EAs which customers have been making enquiries?
You aren't a customer.I think more apt comparisons would be;
Do car salesmen ask other dealerships which customers have been making enquiries?
Do Estate agents ask other EAs which customers have been making enquiries?
Any candidate going through a recruitment process would be mad to disclose any info to a competing recruiter.
CaptainSlow said:
Quite but the point still stands, agencies are fishing for info in order to get their candidates into a hiring company to the detriment of the person they are asking.
Any candidate going through a recruitment process would be mad to disclose any info to a competing recruiter.
I agree. Any candidate going through a recruitment process would be mad to disclose any info to a competing recruiter.
It's not hard is it, its a question of ethics, for many of the candidates I worked with, I would often advise them not to disclose live opportunities. On the other hand I have many times helped candidates evaluate their options between competing companies/roles and offers.
I guess at the search end of the market this is less of an issue, since the search firm is retained to complete the hire, so it is far less likely to be disrupted, or broken by another consultancy winging a few CVs over. (most of my clients paid between £8000 - £15000 upfront before even seeing a CV from me.
Gargamel said:
It's not hard is it, its a question of ethics, for many of the candidates I worked with, I would often advise them not to disclose live opportunities.
No, it isn't a question of ethics for the candidate, it's a question of not having more competition. You advise candidates not to disclose your opportunities? Why not, it may be another recruiter wants to understand their role preferences, or don't you want someone nicking your opportunity?
CaptainSlow said:
No, it isn't a question of ethics for the candidate, it's a question of not having more competition.
You advise candidates not to disclose your opportunities? Why not, it may be another recruiter wants to understand their role preferences, or don't you want someone nicking your opportunity?
Think we are arguing the same point non ? You advise candidates not to disclose your opportunities? Why not, it may be another recruiter wants to understand their role preferences, or don't you want someone nicking your opportunity?
I advise candidates that the role is confidential, two main reasons, often their may be an incumbent in the role who potentially is unaware that their company is looking to replace them. Secondly it is market intelligence that could be used by competitors to the client. Eg, IBM are hiring a new defence sector sales lead and looking to build a team of 30 people .... - is kind of useful to competitors
But to my point, I am totally unable to fathom why people have a problem with recruiters asking where else you are interviewing, or have interviewed.
Sales - Hi, I see you looking at this new BMW, are you thinking of buying a car sir...
Punter - er... yes
Sales - What other cars are you looking at (trying to gauge seriousness, budget level, preferences estate/convertible )
Punter - ooh, that's confidential I am so insulted you asked me that..
Punter - I see you advertising for a Sales Director
Rec Con - Yes we are fabulous role, I wonder is this the first role you are applying for, or are you interviewing anywhere else currently
Punter - (a whole range of answers)
-I've been interviewing these last two weeks
-Never had an interview
- first thing I have looked at
- friend sent me the ad
-just got fired
Etc
Simple - non? Why the angst ?
It is not the same as asking - which line manager interviewed you, when was this, which agency put you fwd, which office, what are the names etc - Some agencies may do this, if they do I would guess they are unintentionally communicating something to you ....
As you have pointed out it's the Hiring Company which is the Client/Customer, the Candidate is the Supplier and you're the middleman/Broker
The angst is because Recruitment Agencies will use that information to actively work against the person they're talking to. If it was fair/reasonable/above board they'd tell the candidate that. But they don't.
Gargamel said:
Sales - Hi, I see you looking at this new BMW, are you thinking of buying a car sir...
Punter - er... yes
Sales - What other cars are you looking at (trying to gauge seriousness, budget level, preferences estate/convertible )
Punter - ooh, that's confidential I am so insulted you asked me that..
Would you ask another dealership who their prospective clients were? After all you want the best for the Customer, why shouldn't the Dealership give you their leads?Punter - er... yes
Sales - What other cars are you looking at (trying to gauge seriousness, budget level, preferences estate/convertible )
Punter - ooh, that's confidential I am so insulted you asked me that..
Gargamel said:
Punter - I see you advertising for a Sales Director
Rec Con - Yes we are fabulous role, I wonder is this the first role you are applying for, or are you interviewing anywhere else currently
Punter - (a whole range of answers)
-I've been interviewing these last two weeks
-Never had an interview
- first thing I have looked at
- friend sent me the ad
-just got fired
Etc
Simple - non? Why the angst ?
Rec Con - Yes we are fabulous role, I wonder is this the first role you are applying for, or are you interviewing anywhere else currently
Punter - (a whole range of answers)
-I've been interviewing these last two weeks
-Never had an interview
- first thing I have looked at
- friend sent me the ad
-just got fired
Etc
Simple - non? Why the angst ?
The angst is because Recruitment Agencies will use that information to actively work against the person they're talking to. If it was fair/reasonable/above board they'd tell the candidate that. But they don't.
Gargamel said:
It is not the same as asking - which line manager interviewed you, when was this, which agency put you fwd, which office, what are the names etc - Some agencies may do this, if they do I would guess they are unintentionally communicating something to you ....
Yes. They're communicating "we're a bunch of weasels, you'd be far better served if you went somewhere else"Countdown said:
es. They're communicating "we're a bunch of weasels, you'd be far better served if you went somewhere else"
Then that's your perogative, no-ones forcing you to work with people you don't trust. You clearly don't understand there are valid reasons that a Consultant would inquire as to your current situation and how far through process you are with others. If you think that's being a weasel, then so be it.
Make sure you cancel the cheque for the service he/she has given you so far to get you to the stage you're currently at and the opportunities presented to you the that Consultant has had to generate through Business Development, Networking, Repeat Business, Referrals etc
Oh, Wait......
ETA - Actually, let's put this to a test. I've got a job that will give you a 30% pay rise and is 10 mins from your front door. Your perfect job, it's ideal. We get to offer stage and you ask me how I found the role. I tell you that I found out because a candidate I was talking to said he was interviewing there, I think you were a stronger candidate than him and pick the job up and put you through the process to the stage we're currently at.
You get the offer.
Do you accept it?
Edited by TIGA84 on Friday 28th October 11:45
Interesting thread!
My view as a recruiting manager is that HR departments tend to be useless in assessing skills matching, mostly because they rarely understand what the business actually does, especially in the tech world I inhabit! However, they can be effective at assessing personality fit, identifying candidates who stretch the truth, finding issues that could be a problem such as willingness to work out of hours, or travel, when the candidate isn't being totally honest. Also, when we used the Thomas tests for evaluating candidates, HR could be pretty good at interpreting them or giving me a good discussion to help me get my head around the candidate's workplace skills.
As for recruiters, when I am the customer, well... There are two general types I come across. The first is the cliche - the shiny-suited chap who just wants to keyword match and throw me lots of CVs. I don't use these, but do get cold-called by them a LOT. The second are the true "recruitment consultants". They will spend a lot of time understanding my business, the role, take feedback on skills matching and what clues I use to evaluate a CV. Then they shoot over a couple of CVs, we review together, then they refine as we go forward. I know maybe three of these, with one who really is superb and adds value. I've used him in at least 4 businesses and will continue to do so.
As a candidate, again there are the same two types. The shiny suits waste everyone's time and I hope they're replaced by Monster and LinkedIn asap. The good ones find well matched roles for the most part. However, then I also have to deal with clueless hiring managers and HR people. I once went for 5 interviews for a senior role, a 90 mile round trip, day off each time, before they said they were hiring someone they knew from the outset but were waiting to see if she was available. b
ds. Not the recruiter's fault, he was pretty good.
I also don't mind of a recruiter fishes for contacts, so long as it's after he's got me an interview for a decent role and accepts that I might refuse!
My view as a recruiting manager is that HR departments tend to be useless in assessing skills matching, mostly because they rarely understand what the business actually does, especially in the tech world I inhabit! However, they can be effective at assessing personality fit, identifying candidates who stretch the truth, finding issues that could be a problem such as willingness to work out of hours, or travel, when the candidate isn't being totally honest. Also, when we used the Thomas tests for evaluating candidates, HR could be pretty good at interpreting them or giving me a good discussion to help me get my head around the candidate's workplace skills.
As for recruiters, when I am the customer, well... There are two general types I come across. The first is the cliche - the shiny-suited chap who just wants to keyword match and throw me lots of CVs. I don't use these, but do get cold-called by them a LOT. The second are the true "recruitment consultants". They will spend a lot of time understanding my business, the role, take feedback on skills matching and what clues I use to evaluate a CV. Then they shoot over a couple of CVs, we review together, then they refine as we go forward. I know maybe three of these, with one who really is superb and adds value. I've used him in at least 4 businesses and will continue to do so.
As a candidate, again there are the same two types. The shiny suits waste everyone's time and I hope they're replaced by Monster and LinkedIn asap. The good ones find well matched roles for the most part. However, then I also have to deal with clueless hiring managers and HR people. I once went for 5 interviews for a senior role, a 90 mile round trip, day off each time, before they said they were hiring someone they knew from the outset but were waiting to see if she was available. b
ds. Not the recruiter's fault, he was pretty good.I also don't mind of a recruiter fishes for contacts, so long as it's after he's got me an interview for a decent role and accepts that I might refuse!
mr_spock said:
Interesting thread!
My view as a recruiting manager is that HR departments tend to be useless in assessing skills matching, mostly because they rarely understand what the business actually does, especially in the tech world I inhabit! However, they can be effective at assessing personality fit, identifying candidates who stretch the truth, finding issues that could be a problem such as willingness to work out of hours, or travel, when the candidate isn't being totally honest. Also, when we used the Thomas tests for evaluating candidates, HR could be pretty good at interpreting them or giving me a good discussion to help me get my head around the candidate's workplace skills.
As for recruiters, when I am the customer, well... There are two general types I come across. The first is the cliche - the shiny-suited chap who just wants to keyword match and throw me lots of CVs. I don't use these, but do get cold-called by them a LOT. The second are the true "recruitment consultants". They will spend a lot of time understanding my business, the role, take feedback on skills matching and what clues I use to evaluate a CV. Then they shoot over a couple of CVs, we review together, then they refine as we go forward. I know maybe three of these, with one who really is superb and adds value. I've used him in at least 4 businesses and will continue to do so.
As a candidate, again there are the same two types. The shiny suits waste everyone's time and I hope they're replaced by Monster and LinkedIn asap. The good ones find well matched roles for the most part. However, then I also have to deal with clueless hiring managers and HR people. I once went for 5 interviews for a senior role, a 90 mile round trip, day off each time, before they said they were hiring someone they knew from the outset but were waiting to see if she was available. bds. Not the recruiter's fault, he was pretty good.
I also don't mind of a recruiter fishes for contacts, so long as it's after he's got me an interview for a decent role and accepts that I might refuse!
That sums up the industry rather nicely. The 'shiny suits' are usually just starting out and trying to get established. Most don't make it hence the high staff turnover at many recruitment firms.My view as a recruiting manager is that HR departments tend to be useless in assessing skills matching, mostly because they rarely understand what the business actually does, especially in the tech world I inhabit! However, they can be effective at assessing personality fit, identifying candidates who stretch the truth, finding issues that could be a problem such as willingness to work out of hours, or travel, when the candidate isn't being totally honest. Also, when we used the Thomas tests for evaluating candidates, HR could be pretty good at interpreting them or giving me a good discussion to help me get my head around the candidate's workplace skills.
As for recruiters, when I am the customer, well... There are two general types I come across. The first is the cliche - the shiny-suited chap who just wants to keyword match and throw me lots of CVs. I don't use these, but do get cold-called by them a LOT. The second are the true "recruitment consultants". They will spend a lot of time understanding my business, the role, take feedback on skills matching and what clues I use to evaluate a CV. Then they shoot over a couple of CVs, we review together, then they refine as we go forward. I know maybe three of these, with one who really is superb and adds value. I've used him in at least 4 businesses and will continue to do so.
As a candidate, again there are the same two types. The shiny suits waste everyone's time and I hope they're replaced by Monster and LinkedIn asap. The good ones find well matched roles for the most part. However, then I also have to deal with clueless hiring managers and HR people. I once went for 5 interviews for a senior role, a 90 mile round trip, day off each time, before they said they were hiring someone they knew from the outset but were waiting to see if she was available. b
ds. Not the recruiter's fault, he was pretty good.I also don't mind of a recruiter fishes for contacts, so long as it's after he's got me an interview for a decent role and accepts that I might refuse!
TIGA84 said:
Then that's your perogative, no-ones forcing you to work with people you don't trust. You clearly don't understand there are valid reasons that a Consultant would inquire as to your current situation and how far through process you are with others.
If you think that's being a weasel, then so be it.
I do.If you think that's being a weasel, then so be it.
If you don't think it is "being a weasel" here's a test for you. Next time you ask a candidate where else they're interviewing explain to them that the reason you're asking is because you want to send the hiring company CVs for other candidates on your books.
After all, if it's not weaselly, underhand behavour, the candidate won't mind....oh wait!
Countdown said:
TIGA84 said:
Then that's your perogative, no-ones forcing you to work with people you don't trust. You clearly don't understand there are valid reasons that a Consultant would inquire as to your current situation and how far through process you are with others.
If you think that's being a weasel, then so be it.
I do.If you think that's being a weasel, then so be it.
If you don't think it is "being a weasel" here's a test for you. Next time you ask a candidate where else they're interviewing explain to them that the reason you're asking is because you want to send the hiring company CVs for other candidates on your books.
After all, if it's not weaselly, underhand behavour, the candidate won't mind....oh wait!
But, I'm sure you as a hiring manager know better than that. I'm sure the people you deal with are ones you like and trust. I too get recruiter calls screened off at the switchboard and I still get speculative CVs through. That does not mean I have a desire to see them, engage, make a contractual arrangement etc.
If you as a candidate tell a recruiter the name of a company and they know it or work with said company, then chances are they may be working the same role already. If not, by the time they have got an 'in' the process is well and truly over and they have missed the boat.
CaptainSlow said:
mr_spock said:
The shiny suits waste everyone's time and I hope they're replaced by Monster and LinkedIn asap.
I think Monster and LinkedIn have made it worse, the old recruiters that knew you are dying out. Now it's just identikit st slingers.Countdown said:
TIGA84 said:
Then that's your perogative, no-ones forcing you to work with people you don't trust. You clearly don't understand there are valid reasons that a Consultant would inquire as to your current situation and how far through process you are with others.
If you think that's being a weasel, then so be it.
I do.If you think that's being a weasel, then so be it.
If you don't think it is "being a weasel" here's a test for you. Next time you ask a candidate where else they're interviewing explain to them that the reason you're asking is because you want to send the hiring company CVs for other candidates on your books.
After all, if it's not weaselly, underhand behavour, the candidate won't mind....oh wait!
Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff