Career in Investment Banking
Discussion
A few more:
1. Make sure he really is actually interested in the business of banking. Those that fundamentally don't care about why an M&A deal is good or bad, or don't find it interesting, will not enjoy the 100-hour weeks, and won't be especially good. They don't last long. Being interested solely in the money does not actually mean getting to the money (if you get my drift).
2. Getting on an internship is crucial. Most of the big banks hire >50% of their grad intake through the internship, and a good chunk of the others had internships at other places. Treat the internship applications like the real job applications, because that's basically what they are.
3. Quantity. Sounds simple, but there is significant merit in just applying to lots of places. The big guys get 1,000s of CVs, and the frankly the selection process is far from perfect - even if you're extremely good the CV could end up in the bin, because it didn't have whatever keywords the recruiter was skim-reading for.
1. Make sure he really is actually interested in the business of banking. Those that fundamentally don't care about why an M&A deal is good or bad, or don't find it interesting, will not enjoy the 100-hour weeks, and won't be especially good. They don't last long. Being interested solely in the money does not actually mean getting to the money (if you get my drift).
2. Getting on an internship is crucial. Most of the big banks hire >50% of their grad intake through the internship, and a good chunk of the others had internships at other places. Treat the internship applications like the real job applications, because that's basically what they are.
3. Quantity. Sounds simple, but there is significant merit in just applying to lots of places. The big guys get 1,000s of CVs, and the frankly the selection process is far from perfect - even if you're extremely good the CV could end up in the bin, because it didn't have whatever keywords the recruiter was skim-reading for.
dub16v said:
Some really great posts in here. A refreshing change!
Also, it does beg the question (to those working in IB) how did you find the time to write such detailed (and helpful) messages?!
I worked in finance for IBD for a few years sat in amongst the bankers, dealing with their senior management. I'm now a business manager on the PB side of things - I have some work/life balance.Also, it does beg the question (to those working in IB) how did you find the time to write such detailed (and helpful) messages?!
Countdown said:
My nephew is thinking about a career in IB. He's currently at University studying Economics and got all A's at A-level.
I was just wondering if any ph'ers had any advice / hints / tips for him. What should he be doing to increase his chances? What kind of skills / personality do the big IBs look for ? Should he be trying to get internships/ work experience etc ?
Thanks in advance
trading, fund management: as most trading is computer controlled using artificial intelligence, nephew will need to be a computer programmer with a business degree as the level of computerisation will only increase. personality? mild austism a benefit interpersonal skills less of a requirement. route in: work experience trading support>programmer>programmer trader. other route in is by working for an electronic exchange or market data provider first. I was just wondering if any ph'ers had any advice / hints / tips for him. What should he be doing to increase his chances? What kind of skills / personality do the big IBs look for ? Should he be trying to get internships/ work experience etc ?
Thanks in advance
corporate finance and m&a: more traditional, less computerisation, contacts and interpersonal skills more important. the route into these two is via internships and they are notorious.
personally whilst a job in insurance or asset management pays less on average your overall lifestyle is more healty and balanced, you may be more happier as a person and less likely to consider throwing ones self off the top of coq d'argent come January each year as many young city people sadly do.
Carl_Manchester said:
trading, fund management: as most trading is computer controlled using artificial intelligence, nephew will need to be a computer programmer with a business degree as the level of computerisation will only increase. personality? mild austism a benefit interpersonal skills less of a requirement. route in: work experience trading support>programmer>programmer trader. other route in is by working for an electronic exchange or market data provider first.
This quite closely describes my Son. Just out of a good Uni with an Economics degree that included a year in industry. He did not get an internship place at the company in the 3rd year (said he was overqualified having done a 2-week shadowing role the previous year) and he was quite upset - I said that if he wants to get in there, persist - find the recruiters, build a relationship and call regularly to find what other places are available. They eventually gave him a more senior position as an Analyst for his 3rd year and he received an offer with a few weeks of starting his final year of Uni. He is a Maths wiz, very computer literate and personality similar to how you describe. He has been working at the Fund Management company for a few months now after University and is loving it. Downside is he leaves the house a 6:30 (sometimes earlier), and is back home most nights at 9pm (often later). He would really prefer to live within walking distance of the office - that should give him another 90 mins back each day.Carl_Manchester said:
trading, fund management: as most trading is computer controlled using artificial intelligence, nephew will need to be a computer programmer with a business degree as the level of computerisation will only increase. personality? mild austism a benefit interpersonal skills less of a requirement. route in: work experience trading support>programmer>programmer trader. other route in is by working for an electronic exchange or market data provider first.
Actually a lot are recruited from physics and maths. It's not the coding itself, it's the underlying model. There is good money in the systems side still (for example if you can architect an in-memory risk aggregation service then you can get >$5k/day...) but you are better staying at the niche or leading edge rather than industrialised systems level.
Vaud said:
Carl_Manchester said:
trading, fund management: as most trading is computer controlled using artificial intelligence, nephew will need to be a computer programmer with a business degree as the level of computerisation will only increase. personality? mild austism a benefit interpersonal skills less of a requirement. route in: work experience trading support>programmer>programmer trader. other route in is by working for an electronic exchange or market data provider first.
Actually a lot are recruited from physics and maths. It's not the coding itself, it's the underlying model. There is good money in the systems side still (for example if you can architect an in-memory risk aggregation service then you can get >$5k/day...) but you are better staying at the niche or leading edge rather than industrialised systems level.
I don't think there is a long-term future for the HFT shops and places that run a big model (like MAN Group) but what do i know, I don't think it serves the market, or humanity, any real value.
Which uni is he at? Brand (still) counts for a lot in the City. If it is Oxbridge or London and perhaps Warwick, Edinburgh or Bristol, the chances of getting on the ladder are much higher and easier.
Keep in mind, "the number of hours worked" make City salaries somewhat less attractive than many newbies expect. For example, a front-office investment banker in London aged 30 averages around ~£150k salary right now (basic + bonus)... A decent wage... But factor in the 50-to-100-hour working weeks, and the per-hour wage falls sharply.
Keep in mind, "the number of hours worked" make City salaries somewhat less attractive than many newbies expect. For example, a front-office investment banker in London aged 30 averages around ~£150k salary right now (basic + bonus)... A decent wage... But factor in the 50-to-100-hour working weeks, and the per-hour wage falls sharply.
OP -all good advice above but here's a route I took & which worked for a few colleagues too. If your nephew has any kind of commercial/sales acumen then there's a huge network of data/trading/technology firms supplying the banking community. Good money in banking systems/market data/trading technology sales. Not as much as superstar IB's or traders, but multiples of the national average salary, expenses, travel, all the usual corporate jollies, without 60+hour weeks. I was sales & marketing director for successful trading systems outfit (now part of Thomson/Reuters) & was headhunted into a top3 bank's electronic trading sales team. Same happened to several colleagues: Goldmans, MS, UBS, Merrills etc. The kind of names (with my crappy Polytechnic business degree) who didn't look twice at my application during the milk round/graduation process. Turns out I didn't like it as much as I thought I would - for all the reasons noted above, but it was a route nevertheless.
Couple of other points - FSA/SFA exams, whatever is the equivalent these days is available at some vendors/suppliers. Couldn't say whether it would be worth your nephew doing this off his own bat: especially if the passporting arrangements may be changing, post brexit etc. Don't forget other peripheral financial services firms: investment managers, insurers, hedge funds, Venture Capital, Research (not sure if this still exists as an industry), PR, Recruitment, who will at least be a route into "The City" & may lead elsewhere...
Couple of other points - FSA/SFA exams, whatever is the equivalent these days is available at some vendors/suppliers. Couldn't say whether it would be worth your nephew doing this off his own bat: especially if the passporting arrangements may be changing, post brexit etc. Don't forget other peripheral financial services firms: investment managers, insurers, hedge funds, Venture Capital, Research (not sure if this still exists as an industry), PR, Recruitment, who will at least be a route into "The City" & may lead elsewhere...
The only thing I from personal experience add to this thread is tell him not to go and work for a Money Broking company, Icap, Tullett, BGC etc. Voice Broking will soon be totally dead with anyone left being a login b
h for clients .
I say this as these firms were seen as a good alternative for big salaries but it's game over for them now
h for clients .I say this as these firms were seen as a good alternative for big salaries but it's game over for them now
Carl_Manchester said:
Yes, I was referring to the future roles of the desk trader who can do programming or trader 'v3.0' not the PHD type. Its an emerging role, I read a few articles about it in the last quarter.
I don't think there is a long-term future for the HFT shops and places that run a big model (like MAN Group) but what do i know, I don't think it serves the market, or humanity, any real value.
Fair points. My point was less about HFT, more about niche skills in the big banks - but everyone wants a niche, right?I don't think there is a long-term future for the HFT shops and places that run a big model (like MAN Group) but what do i know, I don't think it serves the market, or humanity, any real value.
CardinalFang said:
kiethton said:
I'm research
Still exists but nowhere near the same scale/pay grade as it did previously. Just need Mifid to leave us alone and we'll be ok...
Understood: I'm now 10 years out of town & the industry was changing rapidly then. Also interesting about tullet, icap etcStill exists but nowhere near the same scale/pay grade as it did previously. Just need Mifid to leave us alone and we'll be ok...
Only a matter of time till they scale that right back which will mean a reduction in salaries.
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