Moving to a new organisation, should I? advice welcome.
Discussion
Good morning,
I’m looking for advice or just chat regarding a position I’m interested in, sometimes it’s best to get impartial advice!
I work for a FTSE 100 insurance company dealing with a very specific area of fraud, I’m extremely happy at the company, future prospects for development are reasonable and the fringe benefits in many cases are second to none however the base salary is not great but I am able to significantly increase this through overtime and other options provided to us.
I haven’t actively been seeking other jobs however I happened upon a role being advertised fairly close to where I work.
The position is within the NHS and is fraud related, I’ve reviewed the experience needed and demands of the role and am satisfied I fulfil the criteria (there’s one or two things they would prefer but are willing to support the development if the candidate is suitable).
The main benefit of this role is the starting salary is approximately 20% higher than my total earnings (incl OT/ Share options) meaning I’d be earning more for working less time.
My Concerns?
I’m 29 (30 this year) and have worked for my current company for around 10 years, my colleague and I are the only two people in the whole company that deal with this area of fraud which puts us in a great position and that position is very secure, so the prospect of moving to a new organisation is quite daunting.
If I was successful I’d be moving from private to public sectors, does anybody have experience of this?
I have friends who work for the NHS in different areas (Doctors, Nurses etc) and they seem to be positive about the NHS as an employer, I’m aware that in the next 10-20 there’s likely to be major reform in the NHS however I’m confident fraud positions would be secure as the estimated amount lost to fraud in the NHS is staggering, the best way to reduce loss is to tackle fraud and it would be nice to save money that could be used for patients in actual need.
Any advice from persons working in the NHS or questions on areas I’ve missed?
I’m looking for advice or just chat regarding a position I’m interested in, sometimes it’s best to get impartial advice!
I work for a FTSE 100 insurance company dealing with a very specific area of fraud, I’m extremely happy at the company, future prospects for development are reasonable and the fringe benefits in many cases are second to none however the base salary is not great but I am able to significantly increase this through overtime and other options provided to us.
I haven’t actively been seeking other jobs however I happened upon a role being advertised fairly close to where I work.
The position is within the NHS and is fraud related, I’ve reviewed the experience needed and demands of the role and am satisfied I fulfil the criteria (there’s one or two things they would prefer but are willing to support the development if the candidate is suitable).
The main benefit of this role is the starting salary is approximately 20% higher than my total earnings (incl OT/ Share options) meaning I’d be earning more for working less time.
My Concerns?
I’m 29 (30 this year) and have worked for my current company for around 10 years, my colleague and I are the only two people in the whole company that deal with this area of fraud which puts us in a great position and that position is very secure, so the prospect of moving to a new organisation is quite daunting.
If I was successful I’d be moving from private to public sectors, does anybody have experience of this?
I have friends who work for the NHS in different areas (Doctors, Nurses etc) and they seem to be positive about the NHS as an employer, I’m aware that in the next 10-20 there’s likely to be major reform in the NHS however I’m confident fraud positions would be secure as the estimated amount lost to fraud in the NHS is staggering, the best way to reduce loss is to tackle fraud and it would be nice to save money that could be used for patients in actual need.
Any advice from persons working in the NHS or questions on areas I’ve missed?
Very much a dilemma for anyone.
At present employer you seem happy and positive, so this is good. It appears that money may be your move motivator? However, on the surface it reads as if the challenge of lots to do in the NHS appeals also.
Be self critical and honest in deciding why you may move eg draw a list of positives or “negatives” of both current and prospective employer.
Luckily you are young enough and early on within your career, to move again, if you eventually decide to move across to the NHS and find it not for you.
Know a couple of friends who moved from public to private and they love the benfits and ease of pace but not the inefficiency nor administration-heavy processes. Ironically one is a Lean Guru and another Project Professional.
At present employer you seem happy and positive, so this is good. It appears that money may be your move motivator? However, on the surface it reads as if the challenge of lots to do in the NHS appeals also.
Be self critical and honest in deciding why you may move eg draw a list of positives or “negatives” of both current and prospective employer.
Luckily you are young enough and early on within your career, to move again, if you eventually decide to move across to the NHS and find it not for you.
Know a couple of friends who moved from public to private and they love the benfits and ease of pace but not the inefficiency nor administration-heavy processes. Ironically one is a Lean Guru and another Project Professional.
T5R+ said:
It appears that money may be your move motivator? However, on the surface it reads as if the challenge of lots to do in the NHS appeals also.
Nicely identified, You're spot on there 
I feel for the work and responsibilities I'm entrusted with I should be earning more and whilst I've had salary increases every year at the company it feels lacking, I'm fortunate that my partner earns a salary above the national average and if I were able to increase my position it would certainly give us an increased financial security as well as reducing the time I'm actually in work.
Ultimately my main motivation is job satisfaction and security, as mentioned the biggest concern I have is making the jump into the unknown but the challenges faced in the role with the NHS would, I believe, give me increased job satisfaction.
NDA said:
Have you been promoted where you are over the past 10 years? Is it likely that you will be given share options in the business?
I have no idea what working for the NHS would be like, but tend to think of it as a vast machine that will stifle any hungry career execs.
The company doesn't work on automatic promotions per se, you somewhat carve out your own career which is how I got into Fraud.I have no idea what working for the NHS would be like, but tend to think of it as a vast machine that will stifle any hungry career execs.
I've steadily moved upwards in terms of responsibility etc over the last 4 years however discussion about salary is somewhat stifled or "taboo" which is frustrating but I have a good idea what others in similar organisations earn.
As an employee I get £3,600 in shares each year which vest after 3 years, if you move into management you get more on top and this steadily increases the further you move up, these discretionary shares though are very dependent on company performance (although we have maintained profit increase every year for 20+ years bar one) but obviously is subject to share value.
So whilst it's great getting a lump sum of money should I wish to sell the shares the value can vary, I feel I'd be comfortable sacrificing this for an increased salary spread over the year that I know is guaranteed.
I'm very much a specialist rather than general type worker, I don't think I'd enjoy working as a "General Manager" and Fraud manager roles at the moment are hens teeth.
On the salary front, your problem if you can call me it that, is that you joined in your teens and have never left. As you've found out you tend to get smaller incremental increases like this unless you really leapfrog up the chain. What about a similar role in the same industry? If you know what similar roles pay in other similar organisations then you know what you can aim for.
edc said:
On the salary front, your problem if you can call me it that, is that you joined in your teens and have never left. As you've found out you tend to get smaller incremental increases like this unless you really leapfrog up the chain. What about a similar role in the same industry? If you know what similar roles pay in other similar organisations then you know what you can aim for.
They wouldn't be a high as the one in the NHS, even going in at the starting salary would see me above similar salaries in other insurance companies.I don't think I'd want too work for another Insurer straight from this one, strange as that may sound but if I were to move I'd want it to be in fraud but somewhere I can challenge myself rather than stick to the same sort of thing.
You're certainly right about the small incremental increases!
I suppose the main benefit I have is if I applied for the role and didn't get it I'm in a position I'd still be happy with, drafting a CV would be interesting as I haven't done an external one in over 10 years!
Hello. I went the other way, public to private and the culture is very different. The fraud industry has a great network of forums, with the London and Midlands being particularly active. So if you contact your local one, there'll be NHS CF people to ask about.
I find I learn a lot about roles and industries through job applications. There's no harm in applying anyway to get a better insight into the role.
Very happy to take it to PM if you'd like.
I find I learn a lot about roles and industries through job applications. There's no harm in applying anyway to get a better insight into the role.
Very happy to take it to PM if you'd like.
oldbanger said:
Hello. I went the other way, public to private and the culture is very different. The fraud industry has a great network of forums, with the London and Midlands being particularly active. So if you contact your local one, there'll be NHS CF people to ask about.
I find I learn a lot about roles and industries through job applications. There's no harm in applying anyway to get a better insight into the role.
Very happy to take it to PM if you'd like.
I've no doubt the culture is going to be different! at my place there's a good mix of professionalism and friendly "banter"I find I learn a lot about roles and industries through job applications. There's no harm in applying anyway to get a better insight into the role.
Very happy to take it to PM if you'd like.
Part of the problem lays with my location, I'm based in South Wales and as you've mentioned London and Midlands are very active.
I'm on IFIG and active with IAATI, IFIG lists NHS in its directory but it's empty!
I'm a bit reluctant to post or discuss on their publicly as colleagues might become aware and whilst this would not be an issue at all I'd prefer to not be doing it so blatantly in front of them!
Is your work based in fraud too then?
I think the other thing to take into consideration is the length of time you have been with your current employer. It could be to your advantage longer term to move to broaden your experience outside of just one company.
This will help broaden your appeal and also benefit you personally to experience different work cultures.
Imagine staying with your present employer another 5 years or so, you will be 35 and probably viewed as less attractive for any future jobs compared to other candidates with broader work experience.
This will help broaden your appeal and also benefit you personally to experience different work cultures.
Imagine staying with your present employer another 5 years or so, you will be 35 and probably viewed as less attractive for any future jobs compared to other candidates with broader work experience.
An interesting dilemma, and one I quite understand!
The fact is you won't generally get a decent salary bump unless you move employers. Having been with your current company for 10 years now, I'm quite sure you're comfortable where you are, know who to speak to in order to get things done, etc. You're also clearly seen as reliable or you wouldn't still be working there! However, after 10 years you're also part of the furniture - if you can't have open discussions with your manager about career progression and/or salary expectations then that in itself tells you what you need to know.
So - if it's just about the money, apply for the job. People will only pay you what they feel they can get away with, rather than what you're worth - that's the way the world works, sadly! So, apply, interview and see how it goes. If you're offered the job, you have the perfect opportunity to speak to your current company and say you like working there, enjoy the challenges and environment, etc., but that you can't afford to ignore a salary increase of X thousand that this new role is offering.
Your current employer is then free to make a counter offer if they so wish, and you may end up with a nice pay rise and to stay in a role you're clearly happy with. However, if they're not willing to counter offer then you really do need to leave - bluffing is counter productive, as they will then know that you're thinking of moving on and will doubtless factor that into future decisions about your career. You'll have also told them that even a decent salary increase isn't enough to tempt you away from them, and they won't need to be as competitive in the yearly reviews as they might otherwise have been.
The fact is you won't generally get a decent salary bump unless you move employers. Having been with your current company for 10 years now, I'm quite sure you're comfortable where you are, know who to speak to in order to get things done, etc. You're also clearly seen as reliable or you wouldn't still be working there! However, after 10 years you're also part of the furniture - if you can't have open discussions with your manager about career progression and/or salary expectations then that in itself tells you what you need to know.
So - if it's just about the money, apply for the job. People will only pay you what they feel they can get away with, rather than what you're worth - that's the way the world works, sadly! So, apply, interview and see how it goes. If you're offered the job, you have the perfect opportunity to speak to your current company and say you like working there, enjoy the challenges and environment, etc., but that you can't afford to ignore a salary increase of X thousand that this new role is offering.
Your current employer is then free to make a counter offer if they so wish, and you may end up with a nice pay rise and to stay in a role you're clearly happy with. However, if they're not willing to counter offer then you really do need to leave - bluffing is counter productive, as they will then know that you're thinking of moving on and will doubtless factor that into future decisions about your career. You'll have also told them that even a decent salary increase isn't enough to tempt you away from them, and they won't need to be as competitive in the yearly reviews as they might otherwise have been.
Monkeylegend said:
I think the other thing to take into consideration is the length of time you have been with your current employer. It could be to your advantage longer term to move to broaden your experience outside of just one company.
This will help broaden your appeal and also benefit you personally to experience different work cultures.
Imagine staying with your present employer another 5 years or so, you will be 35 and probably viewed as less attractive for any future jobs compared to other candidates with broader work experience.
Also this! This will help broaden your appeal and also benefit you personally to experience different work cultures.
Imagine staying with your present employer another 5 years or so, you will be 35 and probably viewed as less attractive for any future jobs compared to other candidates with broader work experience.
I work in fraud, and one of the guys that is contracting with me previously worked as a fraud investigator within the NHS. It was for a accountancy/consulting firm.
He hated it, mostly because there was lots of travel to different hospitals, and because public sector work can frankly be a bit depressing. It was also quite solitary work as he covered an entire region on his own.
I.e at times he was interviewing and investigating nurses for stealing stationary or toilet rolls, or other hospital workers who were being paid for too little for the work and stress they undertook, and were then being criminally prosecuted for minor descrepancies. Or looking into hospital workers who'd been with the NHS for over 30 years, and knew exactly how to play the system and were just a pain in the arse.
He said some investigations were interesting, more on the bribery and corruption side, i.e doctors with undeclared interests who'd set up businesses that they then gave NHS contracts to.
I got offered a similar role once, and decided it just wasn't for me. I like the perks which come with the Private Sector, and to be frankly honest, although it makes me sound like a bit of a tit, working with the public sector within the NHS just loses a lot of the allure and prestige that you get from working for a FTSE100, that would have been a bit of a dent to my pride.
But at the same time, if you've spent your whole fraud career at one place, it'll be good for you to get some wider experience. Might be an idea to see this as a stepping stone, give it a year or two, build up your experience and then move on?
He hated it, mostly because there was lots of travel to different hospitals, and because public sector work can frankly be a bit depressing. It was also quite solitary work as he covered an entire region on his own.
I.e at times he was interviewing and investigating nurses for stealing stationary or toilet rolls, or other hospital workers who were being paid for too little for the work and stress they undertook, and were then being criminally prosecuted for minor descrepancies. Or looking into hospital workers who'd been with the NHS for over 30 years, and knew exactly how to play the system and were just a pain in the arse.
He said some investigations were interesting, more on the bribery and corruption side, i.e doctors with undeclared interests who'd set up businesses that they then gave NHS contracts to.
I got offered a similar role once, and decided it just wasn't for me. I like the perks which come with the Private Sector, and to be frankly honest, although it makes me sound like a bit of a tit, working with the public sector within the NHS just loses a lot of the allure and prestige that you get from working for a FTSE100, that would have been a bit of a dent to my pride.
But at the same time, if you've spent your whole fraud career at one place, it'll be good for you to get some wider experience. Might be an idea to see this as a stepping stone, give it a year or two, build up your experience and then move on?
As a (long time ago) broker in Lloyds, and the spouse of an former NHS consultant I have a bit of cross over here.
Firstly, you say you have many friends, nurses and doctors who seem to be positive about the NHS as an employer. I have to say that surprises me greatly. Morale in the NHS is pretty low across all levels. I'd have a word with your friends and see if they're not just putting a brave face on it.
The NHS, at least for clinicians, is largely a monopoly employer which resembles, and frequently acts, in the same manner as Stalin's political machinery of total state oppression. In fact it could probably teach Stalin's smartest operators a thing or two. I kid you not.
I'm sure there are some areas that are better than others, but having watched it carefully since 1973, it is not an organisation I could honestly recommend to anyone.
Firstly, you say you have many friends, nurses and doctors who seem to be positive about the NHS as an employer. I have to say that surprises me greatly. Morale in the NHS is pretty low across all levels. I'd have a word with your friends and see if they're not just putting a brave face on it.
The NHS, at least for clinicians, is largely a monopoly employer which resembles, and frequently acts, in the same manner as Stalin's political machinery of total state oppression. In fact it could probably teach Stalin's smartest operators a thing or two. I kid you not.
I'm sure there are some areas that are better than others, but having watched it carefully since 1973, it is not an organisation I could honestly recommend to anyone.
Edited by IanA2 on Saturday 7th January 12:37
Greshamst,
Thanks for your post, personally I'd enjoy the travelling to different hospitals within this region, I've worked deskbound for 10 years and whilst my role does afford the opportunity to attend court as a witness it rarely happens as a guilty plea is usually forthcoming.
Regarding interviewing staff for minor discrepancies, I suppose that's down to the individual how they feel about it but as with any job there are tedious and dreary aspects, I've investigated and dealt with many unpleasant situations with various motives and excuses but overall I'd consider the bigger picture in that it's my job to investigate and identify fraud.
You make a good point about working for a FTSE 100 company, it's certainly something to be proud of but it's not something that carries much kudos in South Wales, in the Land of Labour (shudder) a civil servants job is king!
The stepping stone comment is one I'll consider if I apply and am successful. cheers
IanA2,
Again thanks,
They weren't obviously overly joyous about the NHS but they explained that in terms of pay etc it was positive, I imagine I'd only truly get an idea once I'm working there.
Thanks for your post, personally I'd enjoy the travelling to different hospitals within this region, I've worked deskbound for 10 years and whilst my role does afford the opportunity to attend court as a witness it rarely happens as a guilty plea is usually forthcoming.
Regarding interviewing staff for minor discrepancies, I suppose that's down to the individual how they feel about it but as with any job there are tedious and dreary aspects, I've investigated and dealt with many unpleasant situations with various motives and excuses but overall I'd consider the bigger picture in that it's my job to investigate and identify fraud.
You make a good point about working for a FTSE 100 company, it's certainly something to be proud of but it's not something that carries much kudos in South Wales, in the Land of Labour (shudder) a civil servants job is king!
The stepping stone comment is one I'll consider if I apply and am successful. cheers
IanA2,
Again thanks,
They weren't obviously overly joyous about the NHS but they explained that in terms of pay etc it was positive, I imagine I'd only truly get an idea once I'm working there.
Zollar, you in the tower block near the station/High Street?
I worked for CU/Aviva for many years (about 40 miles up the road) and stuck with them to the end of my career. The benefits of a share scheme are not to be sniffed at (make sure you take the scrip dividend scheme or reinvest the the dividends as this is what really makes a huge difference), nor are the cheaper better staff discounts on car/home insurance they add up too don't forget.
My view is that if you are happy where you are then that is a benefit thT you can't put a monetary value on, however to use PH parlance you need to grow a pair and have that taboo meeting about your salary (you are undoubtedly saving them hundreds of thousand a year, if you left some fraud would go undetected and it would take time to train someone new up to your level of expertise).
My view is that public sector will provide a short term gain but you will then stagnate. Unless you got into senior management the salaries aren't great.
During my career I watched many colleagues move on for roles with brokers or specialist insurers always at a decent increase and a couple of years later they'd move again for another increase and in the end were earning a lot more than me. I was lucky getting a specialist role that allowed me travel, company car, limited expenses and a lot of freedom and that was worth it for me. The trouble with S Wales is so many insurers have moved out and ideally your opportunities lie elsewhere but I'll bet you aren't keen to move away (I wasn't either). That said many of the major insurers have field/home based roles and again I'd bet that some of them would love a S Wales based specialist fraud investigator. A friend still works in one of these roles, I don't know specifics but I reckon he probably earned close yo double what I did, had a Bmw 3 Series company car (when I got a Laguna), his expenses seemed to allow him to go for an evening meal with a couple of mates and he'd pick up the bill, he's moved to a detached house in a posh area of Cardiff and has a holiday flat in Tenby.
I think you need to research with some of the large insurers to see what roles they have or could create for you if you want to stay where you are and also chase the £ but having that awkward conversation with the boss is vital. The non discussion of salary and that being part of the culture is a form of bullying to keep you in your place.
I worked for CU/Aviva for many years (about 40 miles up the road) and stuck with them to the end of my career. The benefits of a share scheme are not to be sniffed at (make sure you take the scrip dividend scheme or reinvest the the dividends as this is what really makes a huge difference), nor are the cheaper better staff discounts on car/home insurance they add up too don't forget.
My view is that if you are happy where you are then that is a benefit thT you can't put a monetary value on, however to use PH parlance you need to grow a pair and have that taboo meeting about your salary (you are undoubtedly saving them hundreds of thousand a year, if you left some fraud would go undetected and it would take time to train someone new up to your level of expertise).
My view is that public sector will provide a short term gain but you will then stagnate. Unless you got into senior management the salaries aren't great.
During my career I watched many colleagues move on for roles with brokers or specialist insurers always at a decent increase and a couple of years later they'd move again for another increase and in the end were earning a lot more than me. I was lucky getting a specialist role that allowed me travel, company car, limited expenses and a lot of freedom and that was worth it for me. The trouble with S Wales is so many insurers have moved out and ideally your opportunities lie elsewhere but I'll bet you aren't keen to move away (I wasn't either). That said many of the major insurers have field/home based roles and again I'd bet that some of them would love a S Wales based specialist fraud investigator. A friend still works in one of these roles, I don't know specifics but I reckon he probably earned close yo double what I did, had a Bmw 3 Series company car (when I got a Laguna), his expenses seemed to allow him to go for an evening meal with a couple of mates and he'd pick up the bill, he's moved to a detached house in a posh area of Cardiff and has a holiday flat in Tenby.
I think you need to research with some of the large insurers to see what roles they have or could create for you if you want to stay where you are and also chase the £ but having that awkward conversation with the boss is vital. The non discussion of salary and that being part of the culture is a form of bullying to keep you in your place.
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