Constructive Dismissal
Discussion
My friends Mrs is in a pickle at her corporate job of a large US based scientific company and is asking me for advice. I'm not an expert so thought I'd throw this one out there for anyone more experienced to chime in..
She's a top performer (highest rating in the company at her Director level in last 12 months globally with commensurate bonuses and glowing testimonials) and a track record of 4 promotions over last 8 years, but is falling victim to a restructure of the business seeing her department and her role being relocated to the US as part of a wider strategic reorg which saw the us department and senior execs who have been her mentors leave the organisation..
She's repeatedly been told to 'sit tight as a promotion or alternative role will come' but at the same time her staff have been reassigned to us based management and her day to Day responsibilities are now relegated to being an individual contributor running a single product line and no budget responsibility where she was previously responsible for a team of 10 with 20+ products and a sign off on a multi million budget..
In addition to this the product line she is covering is 'temporary' and the management for this is being recruited (publicly advertised) in the us (at an advertised grade below the level she holds). She is even being asked to interview the candidates)...
After 6 months of sitting tight and exploring other potential roles in the business nothing is forthcoming (only options are moving to the US) but there is no clarity on how / when her role will be made redundant.
Everything is well documented in terms of her responsibilities being eroded vs her official job description.
While it's clear that the company is not deliberately targeting her personally (there is clear dismay that they haven't found her a role as yet) it's clearly unsettling for her and being ambitious she is realising that sitting there isn't going to advance her career. Her question to me is how can she get them to put a package on the table so she can determine when she can exit and start looking for a role elsewhere..
My reaction to the above from years in corporate roles is that is seems to Look rather like constructive dismissal. Is that an assessment (at face value in this small Amount of info) others would share.
If so any advice on how to approach this so she can get them to the table with a package and wrap this up,8
She's a top performer (highest rating in the company at her Director level in last 12 months globally with commensurate bonuses and glowing testimonials) and a track record of 4 promotions over last 8 years, but is falling victim to a restructure of the business seeing her department and her role being relocated to the US as part of a wider strategic reorg which saw the us department and senior execs who have been her mentors leave the organisation..
She's repeatedly been told to 'sit tight as a promotion or alternative role will come' but at the same time her staff have been reassigned to us based management and her day to Day responsibilities are now relegated to being an individual contributor running a single product line and no budget responsibility where she was previously responsible for a team of 10 with 20+ products and a sign off on a multi million budget..
In addition to this the product line she is covering is 'temporary' and the management for this is being recruited (publicly advertised) in the us (at an advertised grade below the level she holds). She is even being asked to interview the candidates)...
After 6 months of sitting tight and exploring other potential roles in the business nothing is forthcoming (only options are moving to the US) but there is no clarity on how / when her role will be made redundant.
Everything is well documented in terms of her responsibilities being eroded vs her official job description.
While it's clear that the company is not deliberately targeting her personally (there is clear dismay that they haven't found her a role as yet) it's clearly unsettling for her and being ambitious she is realising that sitting there isn't going to advance her career. Her question to me is how can she get them to put a package on the table so she can determine when she can exit and start looking for a role elsewhere..
My reaction to the above from years in corporate roles is that is seems to Look rather like constructive dismissal. Is that an assessment (at face value in this small Amount of info) others would share.
If so any advice on how to approach this so she can get them to the table with a package and wrap this up,8
Its not constructive dismissal.
Effectively her role has been made redundant, she isn't doing the job she was doing. "So work of a particular kind in that location has ceased or diminshed" - which is the test for redundancy
Her best option is to talk to her bosses again and to say as no suitable role has yet come up, but I am no longer doing the job I was six months ago, then it feels like my role has been made redundant. What redundancy terms are you prepared to offer me.
She could lawyer up, and I suspect going from a team of 20 to 0 is pretty compelling in terms of a diminished role, but she must have someone she can speak to - usually in a big US firm, HR are fairly switched on...
She probably wants to avoid redundancy if there's a risk it could be at or near statutory levels.
A compromise agreement would normally be based on a disputed position, which doesn't appear to be present here.
Any reason she hasn't begun looking for another job, as that seems the most straightforward answer?
A compromise agreement would normally be based on a disputed position, which doesn't appear to be present here.
Any reason she hasn't begun looking for another job, as that seems the most straightforward answer?
janesmith1950 said:
A compromise agreement would normally be based on a disputed position, which doesn't appear to be present here.
I disagree. Compromise agreement is just that - a compromise - equivalent to a "no fault" agreement in the US. They are probably nervous that a bright female leader will bring a discrimination case (with or without merit).
This sounds like an ideal situation for a compromise agreement with a substantial sum attached, but they may be waiting for her to ask for one.
In my experience of working with and for US companies, a decision might take some time to come. Not because they're thinking about it long and often, but because other things are taking priority. When it's your turn, it's usually swift and involves throwing money at the problem to make it go away.
It's a little different to how businesses are run in Europe, so best advice I could give would be to sit tight and wait for it.
It's a little different to how businesses are run in Europe, so best advice I could give would be to sit tight and wait for it.
You also need to recognise that for for constructive dismissal to happen the person actually needs to leave.
The 'breach' doesn't seem so severe that it goes to the heart of the employment contract and would cause her to do this. Even if she did, would she go without securing a new role? If she moved straight to a new role, what then is her loss? Next to nothing so it's a waste of time pursuing a constructive dismissal claim.
The 'breach' doesn't seem so severe that it goes to the heart of the employment contract and would cause her to do this. Even if she did, would she go without securing a new role? If she moved straight to a new role, what then is her loss? Next to nothing so it's a waste of time pursuing a constructive dismissal claim.
Thanks folks - very helpful. Seems pretty clear that this isn't constructive dismissal. Does seem clear that the role is redundant but for whatever reason the company isn't being that forthcoming in clarifying that..
More context :
She is actively pursuing multiple lines of enquiry - but given her pretty senior level and the downsizing of roles from uk/Europe back to US the only internal option for her would be to relocate to the states which from a family perspective isn't viable for her right now. Even so nonsuitable roles are vacant there at this point post re-org.. She's been hanging on for 6 months being repeatedly told that 'something will open up / we'll create you a role' and simultaneously working with the right folks at the highest level of leadership to try and craft a position - but so far no dice. Ultimately being based in the UK when the US org is comsolidating and centralising functions isn't helping her..
She has an external offer on the table from a competitor, but this involves compromises in terms of work location vs her current place of work and more importantly she would prefer to remain with her employer if possible. Especially given that they haven't actually said she has to go.,,
Her concern is not so much being employed so much as being able to get the company to take a decision so that she has options on the table to make her choice between redundancy : staying in a reduced capacity / moving to a competitor. The issue seems to be internally that nobody wants to openly admit the role is redundant as someone somewhere ends up with egg on their face for letting a top female performer with >12 years service walk out the door with a redundancy payoff. (The standard payoff terms are generous - would be 1months pay per year of service...
From all that is said below it seems that an unequivocal statement that her role is now redundant is what is required, then things can follow the usual protocol. It just seems that the org is crossing its fingers hoping something opens up elsewhere for her to move into before they make that statement so they can avoid paying her out...
I can't help thinking that if she wasn't good at her job or had less tenure she'd have been paid off and out the door months ago.
More context :
She is actively pursuing multiple lines of enquiry - but given her pretty senior level and the downsizing of roles from uk/Europe back to US the only internal option for her would be to relocate to the states which from a family perspective isn't viable for her right now. Even so nonsuitable roles are vacant there at this point post re-org.. She's been hanging on for 6 months being repeatedly told that 'something will open up / we'll create you a role' and simultaneously working with the right folks at the highest level of leadership to try and craft a position - but so far no dice. Ultimately being based in the UK when the US org is comsolidating and centralising functions isn't helping her..
She has an external offer on the table from a competitor, but this involves compromises in terms of work location vs her current place of work and more importantly she would prefer to remain with her employer if possible. Especially given that they haven't actually said she has to go.,,
Her concern is not so much being employed so much as being able to get the company to take a decision so that she has options on the table to make her choice between redundancy : staying in a reduced capacity / moving to a competitor. The issue seems to be internally that nobody wants to openly admit the role is redundant as someone somewhere ends up with egg on their face for letting a top female performer with >12 years service walk out the door with a redundancy payoff. (The standard payoff terms are generous - would be 1months pay per year of service...
From all that is said below it seems that an unequivocal statement that her role is now redundant is what is required, then things can follow the usual protocol. It just seems that the org is crossing its fingers hoping something opens up elsewhere for her to move into before they make that statement so they can avoid paying her out...
I can't help thinking that if she wasn't good at her job or had less tenure she'd have been paid off and out the door months ago.
Edited by mr_tony on Wednesday 22 March 12:20
Edited by mr_tony on Wednesday 22 March 12:30
Who does she report to?
Schedule a meeting with that manager. Re-assert concerns that job responsibility and satisfaction is shrinking. State that it's not the same job or remit that she originally joined and contracted to do. Try and agree plan for review of new roles, when they may make role redundant.
Clarify other stakeholders and decision makers and plan in accordingly. Then just manage to the dates and commitment.
Schedule a meeting with that manager. Re-assert concerns that job responsibility and satisfaction is shrinking. State that it's not the same job or remit that she originally joined and contracted to do. Try and agree plan for review of new roles, when they may make role redundant.
Clarify other stakeholders and decision makers and plan in accordingly. Then just manage to the dates and commitment.
Another thought, how easy is it to get another role in her industry? If she could be facing months or longer out of work then it may be better to take the external role. Redundancy would be tempting but could be months before she is in a position to leave.
If she's confident she could secure a new role though I'd say push hard for redundancy, great payout, get new job, sorted.
As described, there seems no future where she is now.
If she's confident she could secure a new role though I'd say push hard for redundancy, great payout, get new job, sorted.
As described, there seems no future where she is now.
Thanks again for all the input folks.
I've managed teams / companies / divisions in my time but this was a situation i'd never run into so I've learned a few things here.
I've provided the overall feedback and she's going to try to document things with her new manager. She's pretty disillusioned with the company now but leaving to take another job is tough - she has a 6 month notice period! I think her best course is to at least try to push for recognition that this should be redundancy as a package worth 18 months salary and the ability to immediately start elsewhere obviously beats working a 6 month notice.
If there is a resolution at some point I'll come back with an update.
I've managed teams / companies / divisions in my time but this was a situation i'd never run into so I've learned a few things here.
I've provided the overall feedback and she's going to try to document things with her new manager. She's pretty disillusioned with the company now but leaving to take another job is tough - she has a 6 month notice period! I think her best course is to at least try to push for recognition that this should be redundancy as a package worth 18 months salary and the ability to immediately start elsewhere obviously beats working a 6 month notice.
If there is a resolution at some point I'll come back with an update.
mr_tony said:
Thanks again for all the input folks.
I've managed teams / companies / divisions in my time but this was a situation i'd never run into so I've learned a few things here.
I've provided the overall feedback and she's going to try to document things with her new manager. She's pretty disillusioned with the company now but leaving to take another job is tough - she has a 6 month notice period! I think her best course is to at least try to push for recognition that this should be redundancy as a package worth 18 months salary and the ability to immediately start elsewhere obviously beats working a 6 month notice.
If there is a resolution at some point I'll come back with an update.
A compromise agreement is ideal. Not redundancy. 6 months notice + 18 months salary, first 30k is tax free. Company pays fro the solicitor to advise her... I've managed teams / companies / divisions in my time but this was a situation i'd never run into so I've learned a few things here.
I've provided the overall feedback and she's going to try to document things with her new manager. She's pretty disillusioned with the company now but leaving to take another job is tough - she has a 6 month notice period! I think her best course is to at least try to push for recognition that this should be redundancy as a package worth 18 months salary and the ability to immediately start elsewhere obviously beats working a 6 month notice.
If there is a resolution at some point I'll come back with an update.
Any share options to consider? Pension top up... etc Lump it all in.
They may bite her hand off...
Vaud said:
A compromise agreement is ideal. Not redundancy. 6 months notice + 18 months salary, first 30k is tax free. Company pays fro the solicitor to advise her...
Any share options to consider? Pension top up... etc Lump it all in.
They may bite her hand off...
Why would the company pay this if it is a redundancy situation and which could cost a lot less than this? Any share options to consider? Pension top up... etc Lump it all in.
They may bite her hand off...
edc said:
Why would the company pay this if it is a redundancy situation and which could cost a lot less than this?
Senior female role. US company who may have handled things poorly to date. Risk of litigation, etc... a compromise agreement will probably cost them less than even a minor part of the costs of their retained legal advice.In my experience, most senior roles are handled through compromise agreements (as a peer, not as a lawyer). It's just easier on all sides.
From what I read in the post, your wife is in a strong position. Her position is redundant so they have to offer her a package of some sort or an alternative which is reasonable. It sounds like the alternatives are not commensurate with her position or are not from a location point of view, so why are they keeping her on? My best guess is that they do rate her and want to keep her but the right thing has not come up yet. I would caution patience and having the right conversations with the senior leaders
Vaud said:
edc said:
Why would the company pay this if it is a redundancy situation and which could cost a lot less than this?
Senior female role. US company who may have handled things poorly to date. Risk of litigation, etc... a compromise agreement will probably cost them less than even a minor part of the costs of their retained legal advice.In my experience, most senior roles are handled through compromise agreements (as a peer, not as a lawyer). It's just easier on all sides.
mr_tony said:
Thanks again for all the input folks.
I've managed teams / companies / divisions in my time but this was a situation i'd never run into so I've learned a few things here.
I've provided the overall feedback and she's going to try to document things with her new manager. She's pretty disillusioned with the company now but leaving to take another job is tough - she has a 6 month notice period! I think her best course is to at least try to push for recognition that this should be redundancy as a package worth 18 months salary and the ability to immediately start elsewhere obviously beats working a 6 month notice.
If there is a resolution at some point I'll come back with an update.
I would hold fire for redundancy or push the company to make her role redundant. 18 months salary is not to be sniffed at.I've managed teams / companies / divisions in my time but this was a situation i'd never run into so I've learned a few things here.
I've provided the overall feedback and she's going to try to document things with her new manager. She's pretty disillusioned with the company now but leaving to take another job is tough - she has a 6 month notice period! I think her best course is to at least try to push for recognition that this should be redundancy as a package worth 18 months salary and the ability to immediately start elsewhere obviously beats working a 6 month notice.
If there is a resolution at some point I'll come back with an update.
xjay1337 said:
mr_tony said:
Thanks again for all the input folks.
I've managed teams / companies / divisions in my time but this was a situation i'd never run into so I've learned a few things here.
I've provided the overall feedback and she's going to try to document things with her new manager. She's pretty disillusioned with the company now but leaving to take another job is tough - she has a 6 month notice period! I think her best course is to at least try to push for recognition that this should be redundancy as a package worth 18 months salary and the ability to immediately start elsewhere obviously beats working a 6 month notice.
If there is a resolution at some point I'll come back with an update.
I would hold fire for redundancy or push the company to make her role redundant. 18 months salary is not to be sniffed at.I've managed teams / companies / divisions in my time but this was a situation i'd never run into so I've learned a few things here.
I've provided the overall feedback and she's going to try to document things with her new manager. She's pretty disillusioned with the company now but leaving to take another job is tough - she has a 6 month notice period! I think her best course is to at least try to push for recognition that this should be redundancy as a package worth 18 months salary and the ability to immediately start elsewhere obviously beats working a 6 month notice.
If there is a resolution at some point I'll come back with an update.
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