NHS Staff Sickness

[asfault]

Zoon said:

A woman who works with my wife has been off for 12 months with long covid.
Came back for three weeks and then found out she's entitled to 18 months with long covid so went off again.

That poorly that she manages to go out on all-day benders in Skegness and then posts the photos to Facebook.

There are certainly a large number of people playing the system.

No one dares deal with these people because they end up going to the press. Imagine the title.
"Nurse who got covid hounded out her job. Etc

[asfault]

Deep Thought said:

Countdown said:

I think the average absence rate is 5%.

I had a quick google there and the average absence rate across the entire UK workforce is 2.6%

Average absence in the NHS seems to be around what you say, at 5%.

However it varies greatly by role.

Ambulance staff and ambulance support roles its as high as 8.9%. Commissioning support units as low as 2.8%.

I can accept and rightly so that there is a higher absence than average as you or I can go into our office and smit people and it doesn't matter.
Ambulance staff I can't understand though being ao high

[shed driver]

asfault said:

I can accept and rightly so that there is a higher absence than average as you or I can go into our office and smit people and it doesn't matter.
Ambulance staff I can't understand though being ao high

There's a high number of MSK injuries in front line staff as well as assaults.

SD.

[E63eeeeee...]

Hands up anyone who's ever suggested getting rid of managers would save the NHS.

Having done a fair amount of this kind of stuff in the public sector, I can be pretty confident both that the various NHS employers have processes in place for managing these situations and that they all require individual, tailored approaches be taken by confident, experienced managers with the time, energy and corporate backing to do them properly.

[Countdown]

E63eeeeee... said:

Hands up anyone who's ever suggested getting rid of managers would save the NHS.

On a separate unrelated side-note a lot of the bureaucracy existing in the NHS is created by the Government who want everything monitored and reported and risks completely eliminated. You could well argue that risks should be eliminated or minimised but we need to bear in mind that this imposes a significant cost.

[Franco5]

DickyC said:

Thanks, william. I'll write up a cautionary tale when it's over. A few years into retirement, DIYing, gardening and still driving too fast then, wallop, couldn't walk 100 yards without resting. It happened so fast. And the NHS, bless em, have reacted almost as fast themselves. My 'episode' was in March, my 'at least' quadruple bypass is scheduled for Friday. At St Bart's! World class medical attention on the NHS. This is Off Topic, obviously, and i know there will be shirkers in any organisation. But they're being kept well away from me, I can tell you that.

However, if I don't make it, I reserve the right to change my opinion

Well you’re not going to see the staff that are off sick regularly are you.

I’m not stupid or naïve enough to think that there will never be lazy employees but (if the aim of the organisation is to be productive) the system has to be designed to prevent these people behaving as they wish not to facilitate it. The truth with the NHS sickness system is that whatever (committee) has designed it has given the malingers an open goal.

If you want to know why the NHS performs so badly compared to other first world healthcare systems this abuse seems so widespread that it has got to be a factor.

As somebody else suggested the result is corrosive to organisations because other employees aren’t stupid they see what the malingers are getting away with and think why should I bother.

[Countdown]

Franco5 said:

If you want to know why the NHS performs so badly compared to other first world healthcare systems this abuse seems so widespread that it has got to be a factor.

The recent survey by the King's Fund said it's not the best and it's not the worst (when compared to other similar countries)


https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/blog/2023/06/comparin...

...which shouldn't be a surprise when our spending per head is the 2nd lowest of the G& countries. You get what you pay for.

[Gooose]

I used to work in role with 6 months full pay and 6 months half, terrible abuse by the grifters, Covid really put the spotlight on who takes the piss. I got paid the same as everyone else as well, no performance pay or pay negotiation. That type of sector just advertises itself for abuse unfortunately.

We have to be honest and say that if sick pay went to statutory then most of the sickness issue would be solved overnight. Not that I think it’s the answer though

[CoolHands]

Every organisation has people like that. Some people are shirkers, end of. I would be embarrassed to do so, but they’re not. Also there are procedures in place eg if they have more than 3 instances within 12 months or whatever (I don’t know the specific rules for nhs).

[cossy400]

Daughter in law works from home so many days but could do all week if she wanted but chooses to go in one or two.

Few months ago colleague in the same sort of roll fell playing football so was strapped up with a bad sprain.

Got himself signed off as he couldn't do his work from home job sat on his sofa rather than a desk he claims....

3 weeks off

[x5tuu]

Agenda for Change is to blame.

The same sickness issue is rife even in parts of the NHS that get bonuses for outputs (monthly and annual) - the NHSBSA is a prime example of this and when I did some work there people on sick leave got an average of the last 12mths rolling bonus paid, so effectively got a bonus (albeit reducing) for months 13-24 inclusive whilst on SL ... Like the example below;

Month	Bonus Earned	Average of 12mths
1	1023
2	654
3	779
4	612
5	873
6	695
7	1011
8	860
9	789
10	980
11	830
12	882
13	0	832
14	0	747
15	0	692
16	0	627
17	0	576
18	0	503
19	0	446
20	0	361
21	0	290
22	0	224
23	0	142
24	0	73
25	0	0

[Mikebentley]

My SiL is a Matron and some of the stories are shocking. During CV19 a nurse who worked for her stayed off for almost 12 months as due to an underlying health issue was deemed at risk. When it was safe for her to return they discovered she had flown to India to see family about 11 months in. When they finally spoke to her she argued she had a years leave to take so had another 2 months off before returning to work.

I remember her saying she was authorising £4k a day spending on agency staff to cover staff who were absent.

[jgrewal]

The other half works as a HR manager in the NHS and I hear of this a lot from here and it literally blows my mind. She is dealing with countless cases of staff 'returning to work after 6 months off'. Of course there will be the legitimate cases but who knows how many of them are playing the system as the opening poster has said? The irony of being off long term sick working for the NHS..

Edited by jgrewal on Wednesday 28th June 20:38

[x5tuu]

Mikebentley said:

My SiL is a Matron and some of the stories are shocking. During CV19 a nurse who worked for her stayed off for almost 12 months as due to an underlying health issue was deemed at risk. When it was safe for her to return they discovered she had flown to India to see family about 11 months in. When they finally spoke to her she argued she had a years leave to take so had another 2 months off before returning to work.

I remember her saying she was authorising £4k a day spending on agency staff to cover staff who were absent.

In fairness there is nothing wrong with travelling while on SL and can be beneficial to the person on SL.

Its more commonly a disgruntled colleague issue combined with uncertainty about what the art of the possible is.

[x5tuu]

jgrewal said:

The other half works as a HR manager in the NHS and I hear of this a lot from here and its literally blows my mind. She is dealing with countless cases of staff 'returning to work after 6 months off'. Of course there will be the legitimate cases but who knows how many of them are playing the system as the opening poster has said? The irony of being off long term sick working for the NHS..

Many will have to return at that point irrespective of gaming or even against medical advice as they simply cant afford to stay off any longer, again its perception and being jaded by a known played system.

[Logistix]

williamp said:

Published stats here

Consultants have the lowest sickness rate at 1.6%

They and their colleagues have to pick up the pieces if anyone is off sick so there’s a general motivation to keep at work if at all possible.

Remember that when you consider that they’re asking to be paid properly for the work they do which includes nights, weekends, bank holidays etc right up to retirement age.

I’ve had a total of 10 days off sick.

In 20 years as a Consultant

And that was with COVID.

[Sheepshanks]

cossy400 said:

Got himself signed off as he couldn't do his work from home job sat on his sofa...

Health and Safety nightmare if he did that.

OTOH my NHS worker daughter carried on working (at home) with Covid and when she broke her foot she got people to driver into work for the first couple of weeks then just did it herself, when she really shouldn't have been driving.

[Logistix]

Countdown said:

E63eeeeee... said:

Hands up anyone who's ever suggested getting rid of managers would save the NHS.

On a separate unrelated side-note a lot of the bureaucracy existing in the NHS is created by the Government who want everything monitored and reported and risks completely eliminated. You could well argue that risks should be eliminated or minimised but we need to bear in mind that this imposes a significant cost.

When I started as a consultant within our speciality group we had a general manager and an assistant (business manager).

Now (with the unit performing no more operations than 20 years ago and with the same number of wards, operating theatres etc to service) there are 8 people with 4 tiers of management.

It’s very largely self serving and a lot of it is tied up with monitoring internal markets. There’s even an internal market within the hospital cross billing different specialities for their use of theatres, consumables etc despite the fact that this comes from the same budget.

At one finance meeting, when I questioned why an individual speciality was showing a ‘loss’ the finance manager’s answer was to rework the figures and then they were making a healthy ‘profit’

It’s madness.

At the same time I perform around half the number of operations per year that I did 20 years ago despite wanting to do more, since my time is taken up with a lot more paperwork and meetings.

That’s a big part of why costs have increased.

[dundarach]

The whole 'key workers' nonsense has done nothing for the mental health and expectations of NHS staff, is my controversial opinion.

[ZedLeg]

asfault said:

Deep Thought said:

Countdown said:

I think the average absence rate is 5%.

I had a quick google there and the average absence rate across the entire UK workforce is 2.6%

Average absence in the NHS seems to be around what you say, at 5%.

However it varies greatly by role.

Ambulance staff and ambulance support roles its as high as 8.9%. Commissioning support units as low as 2.8%.

I can accept and rightly so that there is a higher absence than average as you or I can go into our office and smit people and it doesn't matter.
Ambulance staff I can't understand though being ao high

It’s a stressful job, possibly burning people out? Also one of the more physically demanding jobs. Which can lead to injuries.