NHS Staff Sickness

[asfault]

ZedLeg said:

asfault said:

Deep Thought said:

Countdown said:

I think the average absence rate is 5%.

I had a quick google there and the average absence rate across the entire UK workforce is 2.6%

Average absence in the NHS seems to be around what you say, at 5%.

However it varies greatly by role.

Ambulance staff and ambulance support roles its as high as 8.9%. Commissioning support units as low as 2.8%.

I can accept and rightly so that there is a higher absence than average as you or I can go into our office and smit people and it doesn't matter.
Ambulance staff I can't understand though being ao high

It’s a stressful job, possibly burning people out? Also one of the more physically demanding jobs. Which can lead to injuries.

I get its probably more physical ie only 2 of you to lift someone etc but i would have thought in the hospital would be much more stressful than the initial first aid and travel time/ keeping the patient going until they get to hospital to be handed over.

[Logistix]

Partly it’s to do with personal responsibility.

Consultants are personally responsible for their patients including those on waiting lists. They also directly impact their colleagues if they go off sick. Hence the 1.6% sickness rate

The same probably holds for ward sisters and seniors in other departments.

More junior and shift staff probably have less individual job satisfaction and less direct responsibility and do the barriers to taking suck leave are probably lower. Likewise job satisfaction is generally less the less control to have over your work, which tends to be the case the more junior you are hence greater absence rates.

It’s complex but motivation and job satisfaction has as much an influence on sickness as does the actual rates
Of stress/ illness.

It’s also why demotivating your employees (like for example not paying them properly and demonising them when they ask for better conditions) is a profoundly stupid thing to do.

[Tankrizzo]

Sadly a lot of people know someone who takes the piss. One of our family friends is a nurse and takes however much full-pay sick leave she can before investigations start as extra holiday. She freely admits this to everyone.

[Logistix]

Tankrizzo said:

Sadly a lot of people know someone who takes the piss. One of our family friends is a nurse and takes however much full-pay sick leave she can before investigations start as extra holiday. She freely admits this to everyone.

Certainly, but for everyone of those there are probably 10 others going well beyond their contracted job to keep the system going.

You only need a few of those to lose the will to go above and beyond and the effect on productivity would be dramatic.

You can already see this happening on a daily basis IMO

[ZedLeg]

asfault said:

ZedLeg said:

asfault said:

Deep Thought said:

Countdown said:

I think the average absence rate is 5%.

I had a quick google there and the average absence rate across the entire UK workforce is 2.6%

Average absence in the NHS seems to be around what you say, at 5%.

However it varies greatly by role.

Ambulance staff and ambulance support roles its as high as 8.9%. Commissioning support units as low as 2.8%.

I can accept and rightly so that there is a higher absence than average as you or I can go into our office and smit people and it doesn't matter.
Ambulance staff I can't understand though being ao high

It’s a stressful job, possibly burning people out? Also one of the more physically demanding jobs. Which can lead to injuries.

I get its probably more physical ie only 2 of you to lift someone etc but i would have thought in the hospital would be much more stressful than the initial first aid and travel time/ keeping the patient going until they get to hospital to be handed over.

I'm just basing it on talking to my sister who's training to be an Ambulance tech at the moment. There's a high burn out rate among paramedics and techs. Not sure how it compares to other medical professions

[Sheepshanks]

asfault said:

I get its probably more physical ie only 2 of you to lift someone etc but i would have thought in the hospital would be much more stressful than the initial first aid and travel time/ keeping the patient going until they get to hospital to be handed over.

Don't forget that only a proportion of nurses will be properly "front line" in A&E or intensive Care etc. A lot of them are doing pretty routine ward stuff, clinics etc.

The clinic jobs seem a complete breeze. Busy, sure, but they work at their own pace and several times we've still been in clinics when the nurses and admin staff go home and doctors are left to sort things out.

[161BMW]

NHS shouldn’t get any additional funding or staff raises until they sort out this and get a grip of it and just general wasting money in the NHS because they know they get free tax money unlike a profitable enterprise where they have to generate a profit to survive.

[ZedLeg]

Trying to run healthcare like a business doesn't work. Look at America, sure healthcare providers are rich but the government spends more on healthcare than we do and around 1mil people a year declare bankruptcy due to medical costs.

[Logistix]

161BMW said:

NHS shouldn’t get any additional funding or staff raises until they sort out this and get a grip of it and just general wasting money in the NHS because they know they get free tax money unlike a profitable enterprise where they have to generate a profit to survive.

You don’t think that saving lives ‘profits’ society then?

[Leicester Loyal]

Some people play the system, that's the sad reality, it's the same in any walk of life, do you punish the masses because of a few?

Sad reality is that those who play the system will get away with it, it'll cause jealously/annoyance amongst colleagues (rightly so IMO) and more will start to play the system. I don't think there's a lot you can do about it, maybe bonus for full 3/6 month attendance or something?

[PastelNata]

My partner works in the NHS and has a friend, a nurse, who went absent with long-covid early in the Pandemic and only returned to work last month - but only for 3 hours a day on full pay (as was her absence), poor thing, as it is stressful for her.

Meanwhile, she's managed 4x long holidays in Spain and Turkey with her retired husband (who went on sick himself to claim benefits) and is often out and about with her grandkids having a jolly good time showing no signs of any physical or mental stress whatsoever. She's currently in talks with her Union as to how she can force early-retirement with pay.

Disgraceful skiving.

[vaud]

Logistix said:

Partly it’s to do with personal responsibility.

Consultants are personally responsible for their patients including those on waiting lists. They also directly impact their colleagues if they go off sick. Hence the 1.6% sickness rate

What’s the difference between a consultant and God?

God doesn’t think he is a consultant.

[Logistix]

vaud said:

Logistix said:

Partly it’s to do with personal responsibility.

Consultants are personally responsible for their patients including those on waiting lists. They also directly impact their colleagues if they go off sick. Hence the 1.6% sickness rate

What’s the difference between a consultant and God?

God doesn’t think he is a consultant.

You won't be saying that when you need one to operate on you.

More to the point, how do you explain the much lower rate of sickness absence amongst Consultants?

Edited by Logistix on Friday 30th June 12:46

[Tankrizzo]

Leicester Loyal said:

Some people play the system, that's the sad reality, it's the same in any walk of life, do you punish the masses because of a few?

Sad reality is that those who play the system will get away with it, it'll cause jealously/annoyance amongst colleagues (rightly so IMO) and more will start to play the system. I don't think there's a lot you can do about it, maybe bonus for full 3/6 month attendance or something?

Not a fan of giving people bonuses just for turning up.

I suspect that a fair bit of money would need to be spent to save money, i.e. more occupational health reviews of people who claim to be long-term sick. But the system could also be made a bit less rewarding certainly, there aren't many companies I know of that would give you six months full pay for being ill.

[Hammersia]

Prizam said:

My work gives me a lot of exposure to the NHS. I couldn't even start to tell you about the sheer amount of wastage and lack of accountability. It's absolutely mind-boggling. If even half of it was remotely understood by the general public it would change perceptions of free healthcare in the name of the NHS.

That said, as you go up the chain to the critical care workers, you see less and less of the idiocy and the service provided gets better and better. It must be terrible for them to see the rest of the NHS crumble beneath them because of fk whits at the top, and bottom.

It's a big subject, NHS sickness, holiday allowances, agency workers, waste and corruption etc. etc.

What I can't understand, is that with 1.27 million employees, the biggest employer in Europe, there must be very few voters who don't a friend or relative working in the NHS.

And yet apparently the majority are either

1) Sort of happy, their gran got great treatment, nurses are angels etc.
2) Not happy, but the answer is apparently to shovel even more money into it.

[sjc]

Franco5 said:

My wife works for an NHS trust and the stories she tells me about abuse of their sickness policy are scandalous.

The opportunities to game the system sound horrendous with the same people off for months on end every year with various BS minor ailments.

I looked up the policy and of course with this being public sector I found that it’s a load of overly complex tripe but looked like in any 12 month period they could get 6 months on full pay and 6 months on half pay.

Within her trust it’s common knowledge among colleagues that these people privately admit to gaming the system but nobody with any authority cares and/or can do anything about it.

This is not victimless as the waiting lists for the services these people are being paid to provide are years long as a result of their regular absenteeism.

I understand that there’s millions of NHS sacred cow believers out there who don’t want to hear things like this and that’s one of the reasons that the organisation will always remain terribly inefficient.

My partner also works for the NHS and has plenty of stories exactly the same, along with dealing with "managers", "execs" and God knows what else who are as thick as two short planks, have zero common sense but know every current buzzword to sound intelligent.These people move from trust to trust taking that with them...I've met them,It gets my bristles up just thinking about them.To that you can add the "procurement" procedure for maintenance that is massively open to brown envelope abuse, where decent companies that do things properly could save the NHS literally millions a year given the chance.
I

[Mikebentley]

Logistix talks a lot of common sense. I sit here reading this thread and it reminds me of my 20yrs in the Prison Service. We had scivers there but we were so pared down to the bone that they stood out like sore thumbs and were on the whole fairly but robustly dealt with via management of attendance procedures. We weren’t top heavy with admin staff though.

The NHS is a huge monster of an organisation though and fundamental reform is needed. It needs consultation with people like Logistix all the way down to the cleaners. They need to be listened to and asked where improvements and savings can be made to give them ownership. I don’t think it’s all about higher wages and if that wasn’t that focus then there might end up being more available in the pot. Statutory Sick Pay would focus some of those on LTS to considering just how ill they actually are.

[Sheepshanks]

PastelNata said:

My partner works in the NHS and has a friend, a nurse, who went absent with long-covid early in the Pandemic and only returned to work last month - but only for 3 hours a day on full pay (as was her absence), poor thing, as it is stressful for her.

Meanwhile, she's managed 4x long holidays in Spain and Turkey with her retired husband (who went on sick himself to claim benefits) and is often out and about with her grandkids having a jolly good time showing no signs of any physical or mental stress whatsoever. She's currently in talks with her Union as to how she can force early-retirement with pay.

Disgraceful skiving.

The Covid extension to sick pay finished 12mths ago. There are thousands of nurses being kicked out now. I suppose some Trusts are more efficient at it than others.

[Panamax]

Deep Thought said:

I had a quick google there and the average absence rate across the entire UK workforce is 2.6%

Average absence in the NHS seems to be around what you say, at 5%.

Excessive sickness absence is endemic throughout the public sector.

Much of it isn't a "health" problem, it's a "management" problem.

[161BMW]

PastelNata said:

My partner works in the NHS and has a friend, a nurse, who went absent with long-covid early in the Pandemic and only returned to work last month - but only for 3 hours a day on full pay (as was her absence), poor thing, as it is stressful for her.

Meanwhile, she's managed 4x long holidays in Spain and Turkey with her retired husband (who went on sick himself to claim benefits) and is often out and about with her grandkids having a jolly good time showing no signs of any physical or mental stress whatsoever. She's currently in talks with her Union as to how she can force early-retirement with pay.

Disgraceful skiving.

I can see both sides of the coin. If you ever been properly stressed and there is a difference between stress and STRESS if you just coup yourself at home and worry all day you just make it worse. Perhaps they do need to get away from it all. If they post about it colleagues think you are taking the P because they won’t understand. Maybe they were stressed but are taking a longer break than necessary then maybe I can understand why is perceived to be taking the P and maybe they are possibly a bit but is easy to criticise. A lot of people take time off work for stress. Some of genuine and if you post looks like you are taking the P when you aren’t. Then obviously some aren’t.

Edited by 161BMW on Friday 30th June 14:55