Working at height in open retail
Discussion
Pedro25 said:
... some retailers and contracted companies ban the use of step ladders completely, .
My BIL's company installs stuff in retail places and I recall him telling me many years ago that most places didn't allow step ladders to be used. I can't believe H&S has got less stringent since then.
SpamDisco said:
Have you contacted one of the sites? As the store manager would usually refuse work in trading hours when I've needed to use ladders in store.
A few store managers have agreed that it is unsafe and would rather we didn’t but some seem fine with it. Seems oddly ambiguous for a major chain.
H&S man here. 15 years experience. NEBOSH. IOSH. DIPLOMA etc.
You should be signing on to the RAMS and that you agree that they constitute a safe system of work.
RAMS tend to be written by an office worker who has no experience of what you are doing.
Saying no may save your life or spending the rest of your life in a wheelchair.
You should be signing on to the RAMS and that you agree that they constitute a safe system of work.
RAMS tend to be written by an office worker who has no experience of what you are doing.
Saying no may save your life or spending the rest of your life in a wheelchair.
hidetheelephants said:
This stuff again; all those "bonfire of red tape" w
kers vanish like dew in the morning when you ask them if they'd like to do the work up a ladder on their own using both hands.
Or if they'd like to tell the families of the (checks notes) 161 people who died falling from height last year about how "woke" they were for having silly rules...kers vanish like dew in the morning when you ask them if they'd like to do the work up a ladder on their own using both hands. M.
Wacky Racer said:
KAgantua said:
Rough101 said:
A friend was working in a supermarket and fell 20ft, (this is true) but had a soft landing in baked goods, his employer was billed for a large quantity of squashed loaves and Swiss rolls.
Shop was closed though, in the days before 24hr opening.
Shop was right to bill the company. Your friend should have used his loaf...Shop was closed though, in the days before 24hr opening.
I work in heavy industries for the last 15 odd years and ladders are generally considered as only inspection work. Scaffolding is the norm for any work at any height (hop ups of a foot to 30m up). You could always get pop up scaffolding sets but you will need training on the before erecting (PASMA). If you feel uncomfortable with what you are doing, try and have another conversation with the company h&s officer, ask him to put it in writing what he actually wants with his name against it (hopefully will change his mind). If he doesn’t, then let them know you will be speaking with the local HSE office - if you do speak with them they may want more details as they do have the power to do spot checks and fine or close down sites. This is worst case scenario but with everything logged through them your company will struggle to dismiss you fairly if they wanted to use this against you
mattvanders said:
I’m guessing that working at height work isn’t his normal bread and butter…
I work in heavy industries for the last 15 odd years and ladders are generally considered as only inspection work. Scaffolding is the norm for any work at any height (hop ups of a foot to 30m up). You could always get pop up scaffolding sets but you will need training on the before erecting (PASMA). If you feel uncomfortable with what you are doing, try and have another conversation with the company h&s officer, ask him to put it in writing what he actually wants with his name against it (hopefully will change his mind). If he doesn’t, then let them know you will be speaking with the local HSE office - if you do speak with them they may want more details as they do have the power to do spot checks and fine or close down sites. This is worst case scenario but with everything logged through them your company will struggle to dismiss you fairly if they wanted to use this against you
Been there with that one, whenever I request specific RAMS or something in writing setting out the tasks safely and as required I get a blank.I work in heavy industries for the last 15 odd years and ladders are generally considered as only inspection work. Scaffolding is the norm for any work at any height (hop ups of a foot to 30m up). You could always get pop up scaffolding sets but you will need training on the before erecting (PASMA). If you feel uncomfortable with what you are doing, try and have another conversation with the company h&s officer, ask him to put it in writing what he actually wants with his name against it (hopefully will change his mind). If he doesn’t, then let them know you will be speaking with the local HSE office - if you do speak with them they may want more details as they do have the power to do spot checks and fine or close down sites. This is worst case scenario but with everything logged through them your company will struggle to dismiss you fairly if they wanted to use this against you
The work I’m talking about (without getting too specific and naming names etc) is let’s say 12/18 units per store within isles at roughly 2.5/4 mts which require roughly 10/15 mins per unit (should be be at least 45 mins as per SIG but time doesn’t allow) and can only really be accessed via steps.
We do use MEWPs and towers (I’m IPAF & PASMA) but that is 2 man and out of hours in fairness.
So you can see how impractical barriers are considering I’m moving around a store on my own moving steps and barriers with shoppers/kids/elderly/trolleys etc etc.
essexplumber said:
Been there with that one, whenever I request specific RAMS or something in writing setting out the tasks safely and as required I get a blank.
This, I think, might be the problem.Risk assessments must - by their very nature - be specific to the task especially when there is a high risk involved (pun intended). Moreover the method statement needs to cover a reasonable amount of detail to enable you to complete the task in a safe manner.
Unfortunately your options are limited - trying to get the local HSE inspector interested might be challenging, if you can find one.
From what you've said your employer would appear to be liable should you be unlucky - they cannot prove they have adequate management of the risk in place. Likewise your client site will also share some blame for allowing the practice to continue on their premises and not insisting the RAMS are followed (barriers / extra staff / other measures).
However, out there in the real world, there's always another contractor willing to take a chance.
If you're not comfortable you should walk away. If it's dangerous you should run away. A lot depends on your relationship with your manager/supervisor/booker and the outlook of the employing company at this stage.
Picture yourself at the enquiry into the accident. All those people, such as the store manager and your own people who sent you, will hide behind, "He's the guy with the training and understood what the job entailed. He should have been more vociferous if he wasn't happy with it."
Only once you feel totally happy that you can justify every decision you made from a safety point of view, and not one of convenience or cost, should you go ahead. If your company priced to do the job with insufficient staff or equipment, that is their problem, not yours. As you say, its not just your health at risk here, its shop staff and members of the public.
Having attended an accident enquiry into someone suffering a permanent disability at work, I can assure you its not something you ever want to be at. Very fortunately for me, I was the one who had been saying 'Don't do this'.
Only once you feel totally happy that you can justify every decision you made from a safety point of view, and not one of convenience or cost, should you go ahead. If your company priced to do the job with insufficient staff or equipment, that is their problem, not yours. As you say, its not just your health at risk here, its shop staff and members of the public.
Having attended an accident enquiry into someone suffering a permanent disability at work, I can assure you its not something you ever want to be at. Very fortunately for me, I was the one who had been saying 'Don't do this'.
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