Discussion
Munter said:
All that jazz said:
Sounds like a load of old cock to me.
I have to agree. Anybody who posts anything that long on here. (When it's not a detailed technical topic). Is generally posting utter twaddle. Hoping that the more text they use the more people will believe them.I have no doubt you have made money off the backs of others with this 'business', but I'm afraid it really is just a scheme.
The sad thing is that these types of 'business' models are set up to prey on the stupid; promising solid returns with minimal investment and risk. In order to make any real money, you need a large stock of idiots and an average sales pitch.
You probably can earn a few quid a month at the bottom of the 'ladder'; but the real moneymakers do so by standing on the backs of the conned.
I'm pretty sure your amazing 'holidays' consisted of 100 Swiss Tonys all in a room, laughing at the latest bunch of deluded fools they have managed to recruit and how much they are making off them.
The sad thing is that these types of 'business' models are set up to prey on the stupid; promising solid returns with minimal investment and risk. In order to make any real money, you need a large stock of idiots and an average sales pitch.
You probably can earn a few quid a month at the bottom of the 'ladder'; but the real moneymakers do so by standing on the backs of the conned.
I'm pretty sure your amazing 'holidays' consisted of 100 Swiss Tonys all in a room, laughing at the latest bunch of deluded fools they have managed to recruit and how much they are making off them.
The Beaver King said:
I have no doubt you have made money off the backs of others with this 'business', but I'm afraid it really is just a scheme.
The sad thing is that these types of 'business' models are set up to prey on the stupid; promising solid returns with minimal investment and risk. In order to make any real money, you need a large stock of idiots and an average sales pitch.
You probably can earn a few quid a month at the bottom of the 'ladder'; but the real moneymakers do so by standing on the backs of the conned.
I'm pretty sure your amazing 'holidays' consisted of 100 Swiss Tonys all in a room, laughing at the latest bunch of deluded fools they have managed to recruit and how much they are making off them.
Oh no The sad thing is that these types of 'business' models are set up to prey on the stupid; promising solid returns with minimal investment and risk. In order to make any real money, you need a large stock of idiots and an average sales pitch.
You probably can earn a few quid a month at the bottom of the 'ladder'; but the real moneymakers do so by standing on the backs of the conned.
I'm pretty sure your amazing 'holidays' consisted of 100 Swiss Tonys all in a room, laughing at the latest bunch of deluded fools they have managed to recruit and how much they are making off them.
. Now you've gone and done it. The Beaver King said:
I have no doubt you have made money off the backs of others with this 'business', but I'm afraid it really is just a scheme.
The sad thing is that these types of 'business' models are set up to prey on the stupid; promising solid returns with minimal investment and risk. In order to make any real money, you need a large stock of idiots and an average sales pitch.
You probably can earn a few quid a month at the bottom of the 'ladder'; but the real moneymakers do so by standing on the backs of the conned.
I'm pretty sure your amazing 'holidays' consisted of 100 Swiss Tonys all in a room, laughing at the latest bunch of deluded fools they have managed to recruit and how much they are making off them.
What you describe is called pyramid selling and it's illegal. But i don't expect you to belief it least of all understand it. I appreciate your input though. The sad thing is that these types of 'business' models are set up to prey on the stupid; promising solid returns with minimal investment and risk. In order to make any real money, you need a large stock of idiots and an average sales pitch.
You probably can earn a few quid a month at the bottom of the 'ladder'; but the real moneymakers do so by standing on the backs of the conned.
I'm pretty sure your amazing 'holidays' consisted of 100 Swiss Tonys all in a room, laughing at the latest bunch of deluded fools they have managed to recruit and how much they are making off them.
I earn more than the person who introduced me, I have 2 people in my team earning more than me. I did not qualify for the Dubai trip last year but had 5 people in my team that did. Is it possible for you to earn more than your boss? We don't have a bottom of the ladder that's illegal in the UK. If you joined today Kleeneze pay you 21In most businesses you do need idiots who are prepared to work for low wages, poor or no contracts and little security that can be disposed of at will.
I know someone who used to be reasonably senior in the organisation (salaried not in sales). He was staggered at how much some some people were making. The holidays given away were very much real, and at one event he attended they were giving away cars to the top performers.
I've no idea if their operation is a pyramid scheme or not, but the possibility to make serious money was. The OP quoting 40k is tiny compared to the sellers running big teams. One thing that seems different to a pyramid that the senior people in organisation were salaried only. To be part of the "pyramid" you had to be in the sales side of the organisation (ie a door step seller).
This is going back a few years though.
I've no idea if their operation is a pyramid scheme or not, but the possibility to make serious money was. The OP quoting 40k is tiny compared to the sellers running big teams. One thing that seems different to a pyramid that the senior people in organisation were salaried only. To be part of the "pyramid" you had to be in the sales side of the organisation (ie a door step seller).
This is going back a few years though.
Edited by 98elise on Monday 6th October 18:46
Tim Pace said:
I earn more than the person who introduced me, I have 2 people in my team earning more than me. I did not qualify for the Dubai trip last year but had 5 people in my team that did. Is it possible for you to earn more than your boss?
You keep saying this, but I don't understand the significance?I don't want to earn more than my boss, unless I'm replacing him; then I'm his boss. If I'm earning more than my boss and I work in a sales enviroment, then how is he my boss if I am better than him?
You're not talking about a boss; you're talking about somebody who is senior based on time served. I earn more money than some people who have worked at my company for twice as long. That isn't really a big deal.
Also, you talk about earning a basic income for doing nothing, as the people you 'manage' are providing a portion of their sales. Well your not doing 'nothing' are you? You're managing a team, just in a very 'hands off' way; or more accurately you have people that work under your umbrella paying you a cut. I assume this works as they order their gear through you?
Still, all very interesting/dodgy...
98elise said:
I know someone who used to be reasonably senior in the organisation (salaried not in sales). He was staggered at how much some some people were making. The holidays given away were very much real, and at one event he attended they were giving away cars to the top performers.
I've no idea if their operation is a pyramid scheme or not, but the possibly to make serious money was. The OP quoting 40k is tiny compared to the sellers running big teams. One thing that seems different to a pyramid that the senior people in organisation were salaried only. To be part of the "pyramid" you had to be in the sales side of the organisation (ie a door step seller).
This is going back a few years though.
Being salaried in what is a "pyramid like" set up is probably worse from an ethical point of view.I've no idea if their operation is a pyramid scheme or not, but the possibly to make serious money was. The OP quoting 40k is tiny compared to the sellers running big teams. One thing that seems different to a pyramid that the senior people in organisation were salaried only. To be part of the "pyramid" you had to be in the sales side of the organisation (ie a door step seller).
This is going back a few years though.
Eric Mc said:
98elise said:
I know someone who used to be reasonably senior in the organisation (salaried not in sales). He was staggered at how much some some people were making. The holidays given away were very much real, and at one event he attended they were giving away cars to the top performers.
I've no idea if their operation is a pyramid scheme or not, but the possibly to make serious money was. The OP quoting 40k is tiny compared to the sellers running big teams. One thing that seems different to a pyramid that the senior people in organisation were salaried only. To be part of the "pyramid" you had to be in the sales side of the organisation (ie a door step seller).
This is going back a few years though.
Being salaried in what is a "pyramid like" set up is probably worse from an ethical point of view.I've no idea if their operation is a pyramid scheme or not, but the possibly to make serious money was. The OP quoting 40k is tiny compared to the sellers running big teams. One thing that seems different to a pyramid that the senior people in organisation were salaried only. To be part of the "pyramid" you had to be in the sales side of the organisation (ie a door step seller).
This is going back a few years though.
In this model the sucessful sellers take a small cut from any new sellers they recruit. If no more are recruited the business still functions but it stays static. The stuff they sell is very cheap to buy, and they have little in the way of overheads so there is a high profit margin.
The newest recruits only make profits only from their sales, but they still see a profit. I can't remeber the actual figures but the money to be made just from doorstep selling seemed perfectly ok. It was enough that my own mother considered taking it up when she retired.
The person I know has long since left them and I don't know anyone else involved, so I have no reason to defend them if their business is suspect.
It has some elements of a typical pyramid scheme, but enough differences to put it in the "legal" side of the line.
I am always dubious of any business model that is partly (if not wholly) dependent on recruiting new sellers rather than promoting the product or services ostensibly provided by the business.
I am always dubious of any business model that is partly (if not wholly) dependent on recruiting new sellers rather than promoting the product or services ostensibly provided by the business.
littlegreenfairy said:
Who are they actually selling to? Where do the people come from. Call me a skeptic but I've never met anyone who had bought from them.
They do actually sell to a lot of people. The sales are genuine, ie new recruits sell stuff, and the person that recruits then gets a slice of their profits, and whatever they sell. There isn't a need to keep recruiting to keep the business model going, but if you want to make a lot of money then thats what you need to do.They also sell on high profit margins as its generally cheap stuff, with little overhead. Almost everyone knows who they are, so they are pretty much covering the entire country.
A lot of what has been said recently is true most organisations are run on the format of a pyramid of some description whilst in some companies where salaries are negotiated in may be possible to be paid more than other members of staff. I'm not trying to prove that network marketing is perfect it's simply a method of product distribution that is moral ethical and fair. With value flowing down and money generated from customer sales flowing back through the business to pay the bonuses and expand the business.
The UK law states it's "illegal to operate a scheme were a payment is made for recruiting people" no such payment is made by Kleeneze. In most companies sales managers are paid a performance related bonus based on the team or area they manage. Kleeneze distributors pay nothing out of their profits to support team leaders they keep 100% of their profits. Kleeneze pay the bonuses direct to distributors who run teams. There is no necessity to recruit anyone in fact 95% of distributors are not interested in doing it at all. With 65 million people in the UK and only 11,000 distributors we have some way to go before we have any saturation problems. Kleeneze move millions of pounds of products every year to customers not family friends or other distributors via catalogues and more recently online websites offered to distributors. I think I have said there are people earning £40k plus per year just distributing catalogues. With no desire to recruit anyone all keeping 100% of the profit they make. You cannot run a business in the UK like Kleeneze had for 91 years and be operating illegally.
We are held in high regard too recently been invited to advertise and work with the government run jobs search site to offer unemployed people the chance to move into self employment. I agree that if just one or two aspects of our business model are changed you have something illegal. But that can be said for many businesses. If a shortcut is to be made or a way of scamming someone will find it. That's why we are controlled by strict laws and the DSA exists.
The UK law states it's "illegal to operate a scheme were a payment is made for recruiting people" no such payment is made by Kleeneze. In most companies sales managers are paid a performance related bonus based on the team or area they manage. Kleeneze distributors pay nothing out of their profits to support team leaders they keep 100% of their profits. Kleeneze pay the bonuses direct to distributors who run teams. There is no necessity to recruit anyone in fact 95% of distributors are not interested in doing it at all. With 65 million people in the UK and only 11,000 distributors we have some way to go before we have any saturation problems. Kleeneze move millions of pounds of products every year to customers not family friends or other distributors via catalogues and more recently online websites offered to distributors. I think I have said there are people earning £40k plus per year just distributing catalogues. With no desire to recruit anyone all keeping 100% of the profit they make. You cannot run a business in the UK like Kleeneze had for 91 years and be operating illegally.
We are held in high regard too recently been invited to advertise and work with the government run jobs search site to offer unemployed people the chance to move into self employment. I agree that if just one or two aspects of our business model are changed you have something illegal. But that can be said for many businesses. If a shortcut is to be made or a way of scamming someone will find it. That's why we are controlled by strict laws and the DSA exists.
Tim Pace said:
We are held in high regard too recently been invited to advertise and work with the government run jobs search site to offer unemployed people the chance to move into self employment.
Not the disgraced government run "Universal Jobmatch" site by any chance?http://www.channel4.com/news/universal-jobmatch-bo...
Surprise, surprise -
""Of nearly 600,000 positions currently available, 118,000 are actually adverts for the Kleeneze door-to-door catalogue franchise while another 95,000 have duplicated job descriptions, writes Ed Howker".
Which the DWP has confirmed is in breach of the regulations governing the use of the Universal Jobmatch advertising.
Apparent Kleeneze themselves have not directly placed these "job" ads but individual distributors have found it an easy way to recruit new sellers.
""Of nearly 600,000 positions currently available, 118,000 are actually adverts for the Kleeneze door-to-door catalogue franchise while another 95,000 have duplicated job descriptions, writes Ed Howker".
Which the DWP has confirmed is in breach of the regulations governing the use of the Universal Jobmatch advertising.
Apparent Kleeneze themselves have not directly placed these "job" ads but individual distributors have found it an easy way to recruit new sellers.
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