1M - Is it the 'new' M3. Discuss!
Discussion
NoelWatson said:
Are you still planning on using it as a track car?
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/news/default.asp?stor...
Hi Noel,http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/news/default.asp?stor...
NO. And don't think I ever have said that. I can't think of one genuine road car that makes a proper track car without mods. I have a Radical & Caterham (even that needed modding) for that purpose. What I have said is that I'm buying the 1M for a very specific purpose - to take me to and from the 'Ring and to use as a car to learn that circuit (with decent instructor installed) in prep for some racing. I expect I'll also have a laugh at a few UK track days too. And to have a laugh - or fun - then of course I don't want a 'perfect' track car on those days which (IMHO) bare little relation to genuine track work - ie racing. I've also said I won't be suprised if I end up 'tinkering' with the 1M a little...............
Also - I don't actually recognise the description PHs gives - not from reading Evo's very in depth test which included track time where the car was equal in times to an M3 and only a shade slower than a Caynam R! I know the guys at Evo who drove the car and know who's word I'll take.......
That said actually for me there will only be one judge who's opinion as to whether the car is fulfilling the role I intend for it will matter - and that's me. And that's the same for us all with our own cars surely.
First 1000 mile 'report' coming soon - if any of you guys can bare reading it!
PS. ER, I've just reread the PH testers comments re the 1M engine too. Whilst he is correct that there IS (obviously) a difference between the power delivery of the 1M's turbo unit and that of the a M3's amazing n/a V8 he exagerates it HUGELY and talks utter nonsense (based on my inital road only experiences and views of others who have driven it on track) in terms of how it compromises the car on track - IMHO of course!
Edited by Pugsey on Tuesday 31st May 07:26
Edited by Pugsey on Tuesday 31st May 08:00
griff7 said:
There are not many cars that are good around the track out of the showroom even a lot of exotica.The 1M with suspension and brakes will be a superb and fun track tool without a doubt.To have 4 seats and have such potential to make into a great allround road and track tool opens it up to a different market.
The friend who picked up his 1M a few weeks ago has it booked into supersprint for an exhaust and kw for the suspension and then evolve for a remap in the next few weeks.To start with just uprated pads and hoses but probably brake kit at a later date,so cant wait to see the results around the ring.
Pugsey when are you planning the 1st ring trip??
Spot on Griff.The friend who picked up his 1M a few weeks ago has it booked into supersprint for an exhaust and kw for the suspension and then evolve for a remap in the next few weeks.To start with just uprated pads and hoses but probably brake kit at a later date,so cant wait to see the results around the ring.
Pugsey when are you planning the 1st ring trip??
Edited by griff7 on Sunday 29th May 11:53
Be interested to here about your pal's car. You're involved in mospo?
Probably end June or early July - haven't looked to see whether there are any good days organised yet - although quite enjoy public days too strangely.
Edited by Pugsey on Tuesday 31st May 07:28
griff7 said:
breadvan said:
I am loving all the hype about this car!
Before your mate does all the mods, just remember BMW will bring all these parts out shortly with their Personalisation Program and if he goes down the after-market route, he will loose £££ as everyone else will be waiting for BMW first.
There is this obsession with certain people about how much money people will lose!!Everone who has bought one of these is going to lose big £££.Like pugsey and a few others have said they are not bothered about losing money only owning and enjoying driving the car.If you dont want to lose too much then dont buy new or buy something that is a future classic and then you cant put miles on it or enjoy it or it is still worthless.Before your mate does all the mods, just remember BMW will bring all these parts out shortly with their Personalisation Program and if he goes down the after-market route, he will loose £££ as everyone else will be waiting for BMW first.
If you think that buying off bmw is cheaper than buying off the shelf then you are delirious!!When bmw supply brakes they are brembo,and the suspension on the gts is kw so why pay more for the parts off bmw??As far as exhaust is concerned do you really think bmw are going to offer a full turbo back system and if they do at less money than other manufacturers??My friend and i have a lot of contacts for motorsport parts and therefore get some very good deals,but even if we were not in this position we would still buy the parts as it gets the cars to where we want them for our enjoyment.
When certain suppliers offer to supply goods for free in exchange for advertising and a few favours i suppose you would turn that down as well? as the parts are not from bmw?
Funk said:
Just read EVO's appraisal of the 1M..
Blimey, they loved it and even go as far as to say it's better to drive than the E92 M3 in the real world. Very much a ringing endorsement and bodes VERY well for the turbo-charged future of M-cars.
They loved it for slightly dubious reasons in my mind though.Blimey, they loved it and even go as far as to say it's better to drive than the E92 M3 in the real world. Very much a ringing endorsement and bodes VERY well for the turbo-charged future of M-cars.
I haven't driven one (or seen one) but if 'real world' low rev thrust is more important to you than a V8 that revs to 9000, might as well get a big Turbo Diesel and be done with it. Personally I want a slightly special engine, not one that delivers the same characteristics (less extreme obviously) available in most modern cars.
And if practicality is that important, the M3 wins every time. I got two mountain bikes, two body boards, wetsuits, full camping equipment and tent etc in my e46 M3 over weekend, you won't fit all that stuff in a 'neither a two seater, nor a big enough to be useful' 1M.
Anyway, I am probably biased, so ignore me.
griff7 said:
The m3 with back box and remap is 440bhp and some people claim more.For 5k you can get 500 to 520 bhp from the m3 so where do you stop?
Bwahaha, 25% improvement on what is already a highly strung engine for £5k... Please... Clearly the likes of Evolve, GSR and a few others in Europe are taking the mickey then...Cheburator mk2 said:
Bwahaha, 25% improvement on what is already a highly strung engine for £5k... Please... Clearly the likes of Evolve, GSR and a few others in Europe are taking the mickey then...
125bhp per litre is pretty standard these days and these figures are from the people who run the bmw's in the british touring cars so not micky mouse.As for highly strung 8300rpm rev limit on this engine is nothing special on a modern engine.My m3 is 440bhp with exhaust filter and remap , but much more without cams cat replacement and head work is not going to happen.The new gt3 rs 4ltr is 500bhp and six cylinder so that will probably blow up in a few months will it?? Pugsey said:
Spot on Griff.
Be interested to here about your pal's car. You're involved in mospo?
Probably end June or early July - haven't looked to see whether there are any good days organised yet - although quite enjoy public days too strangely.
Weather permitting im going out on18th/19th june as quite like public days too,and then a couple of times later in the year as bought a year pass this year.One of the guys who i go with has done 5 24hr races there and has done all the race instructor courses and ran some with another competitor.His last finish was 15th in a private car so he knows his way round quite well so i have been lucky enough to sit in with and have him sit in with me a lot.Be interested to here about your pal's car. You're involved in mospo?
Probably end June or early July - haven't looked to see whether there are any good days organised yet - although quite enjoy public days too strangely.
Edited by Pugsey on Tuesday 31st May 07:28
My mate should have his mods done in the next 4 to 5 weeks so will keep you posted,so on the 18th /19th he will take the m3 over.
I have competed in the caterham for 8 years now in hillclimbing and circuit racing so do like to do a few track days as well.Have a good friend who raced in the radicals for the last couple of seasons who you might know if you race yours.
Edited by griff7 on Tuesday 31st May 21:13
griff7 said:
125bhp per litre is pretty standard these days and these figures are from the people who run the bmw's in the british touring cars so not micky mouse.As for highly strung 8300rpm rev limit on this engine is nothing special on a modern engine.My m3 is 440bhp with exhaust filter and remap , but much more without cams cat replacement and head work is not going to happen.The new gt3 rs 4ltr is 500bhp and six cylinder so that will probably blow up in a few months will it??
I am not denying that these numbers are achievable, BUT:1. The engines used in the BMWs in the Touring car championship are so far removed from the ones in your M3 it is not even worth discussing it on here. For starters, it is a 4 cylinder one, which makes a liiitle bit more than 125bhp/ltr :P and costs a few £s more than your car...
2. 8300rpm is actually quite a big deal if you know a thing or two about engine longevity vs. output vs. cost to make vs. ease of use to mention but a few
3. Anyone who claims that they can get a boggo M3 V8 to achieve 500bhp for £5k is a bulls
t artist of the highest caliber or they should be heading the engine department at BMW Motorsport4. Yes, the 911 RSR has been making even more power for years now, but not for £5k extra on the price of a GT3 engine...
To give you an idea - to get a Evo 3.2 to 510bhp from 321bhp with the use of a supercharger it costs in excess of £25k, a 5.4ltr Porsche to 475bhp from 350bhp - in excess of £15k so I still don't quite get how you can get an M3 V8 to 500bhp for £5k... Or is that what is says in EVO, therefore it must be true?
Cheburator mk2 said:
I am not denying that these numbers are achievable, BUT:
1. The engines used in the BMWs in the Touring car championship are so far removed from the ones in your M3 it is not even worth discussing it on here. For starters, it is a 4 cylinder one, which makes a liiitle bit more than 125bhp/ltr :P and costs a few £s more than your car...
2. 8300rpm is actually quite a big deal if you know a thing or two about engine longevity vs. output vs. cost to make vs. ease of use to mention but a few
3. Anyone who claims that they can get a boggo M3 V8 to achieve 500bhp for £5k is a bullst artist of the highest caliber or they should be heading the engine department at BMW Motorsport
4. Yes, the 911 RSR has been making even more power for years now, but not for £5k extra on the price of a GT3 engine...
To give you an idea - to get a Evo 3.2 to 510bhp from 321bhp with the use of a supercharger it costs in excess of £25k, a 5.4ltr Porsche to 475bhp from 350bhp - in excess of £15k so I still don't quite get how you can get an M3 V8 to 500bhp for £5k... Or is that what is says in EVO, therefore it must be true?
1.Where in my post did i say that the engine in the e92 in a road car is the same as the touring cars?I said that the people who run them have achieved these figures with cams and head work and cat replacement.1. The engines used in the BMWs in the Touring car championship are so far removed from the ones in your M3 it is not even worth discussing it on here. For starters, it is a 4 cylinder one, which makes a liiitle bit more than 125bhp/ltr :P and costs a few £s more than your car...
2. 8300rpm is actually quite a big deal if you know a thing or two about engine longevity vs. output vs. cost to make vs. ease of use to mention but a few
3. Anyone who claims that they can get a boggo M3 V8 to achieve 500bhp for £5k is a bulls
t artist of the highest caliber or they should be heading the engine department at BMW Motorsport4. Yes, the 911 RSR has been making even more power for years now, but not for £5k extra on the price of a GT3 engine...
To give you an idea - to get a Evo 3.2 to 510bhp from 321bhp with the use of a supercharger it costs in excess of £25k, a 5.4ltr Porsche to 475bhp from 350bhp - in excess of £15k so I still don't quite get how you can get an M3 V8 to 500bhp for £5k... Or is that what is says in EVO, therefore it must be true?
2.I do know quite a lot about engine longevity vs output and 8300 rpm is not stressing this engine at all compared to what bmw bench test them at.If you did modify a standard m3 to 450bhp plus you obviously could not expect it tto last as long as standard
3.You are quite welcome to call the engine builders yourself as i can mail you the details of where the figures have come from.
4.30K would be not too far off the mark for the porsche engine as a standard boxer 3.2 is 10k from porsche.
The honda vtecs have been running at 9k limits for years with no issues if serviced when necessary.
Edited by griff7 on Thursday 2nd June 17:23
Pugsey said:
Come on chaps - nice friendly topic this one! And stop talking about that fat lardy old M3 will you - yesterdays car lol. Joking, joking!!
Re £costs, try this one for size. A 997turbo COSTS Porsche approx £10k more to build than a BoxsterS..............
Agreed judge Re £costs, try this one for size. A 997turbo COSTS Porsche approx £10k more to build than a BoxsterS..............
cant be arsed.As you say above its why porsche make good money!!griff7 said:
Pugsey said:
Spot on Griff.
Be interested to here about your pal's car. You're involved in mospo?
Probably end June or early July - haven't looked to see whether there are any good days organised yet - although quite enjoy public days too strangely.
Weather permitting im going out on18th/19th june as quite like public days too,and then a couple of times later in the year as bought a year pass this year.One of the guys who i go with has done 5 24hr races there and has done all the race instructor courses and ran some with another competitor.His last finish was 15th in a private car so he knows his way round quite well so i have been lucky enough to sit in with and have him sit in with me a lot.Be interested to here about your pal's car. You're involved in mospo?
Probably end June or early July - haven't looked to see whether there are any good days organised yet - although quite enjoy public days too strangely.
Edited by Pugsey on Tuesday 31st May 07:28
My mate should have his mods done in the next 4 to 5 weeks so will keep you posted,so on the 18th /19th he will take the m3 over.
I have competed in the caterham for 8 years now in hillclimbing and circuit racing so do like to do a few track days as well.Have a good friend who raced in the radicals for the last couple of seasons who you might know if you race yours.
Edited by griff7 on Tuesday 31st May 21:13
Re racing - don't race the Radical much now. Looking at a few rentadrives at 'Ring later in year and currently also looking at going shares in something post historic. F1,2, or maybe sports prototype. used to race FF, F2000, F3 and F5000 MANY moons ago.
Porscheplayer said:
ArmaghMan said:
Yeah, those e30 m3's really have fallen off a depreciation cliff!! 0 miles unregd ones are only worth £80k and as for e46 csl values, well they're now down to 320d money (are'nt they?).
I have a suspicion that quite a few will be "put away" by guys who already have a collection. They're too small to run as a daily driver, and will be kept as Sunady drivers or track toys.
Good morning Mr sarcasticI have a suspicion that quite a few will be "put away" by guys who already have a collection. They're too small to run as a daily driver, and will be kept as Sunady drivers or track toys.
No ones talking about cars which have been put away as if it some le mans winning race car and kept for prosperity and if remember rightly the CSL was a disaster when it first came out, it took a long time for dealers to sell them and initially like all m cars their lost a heap of money, so the stupid 320d comparison is complete rubbish. Limited numbers will help the m1, there's a lot hype around this car at the moment. All this talk of the car being sold out is rubbish, dealers have just bought cars as demos and many will have the first owner as BMW, just as my MCar did, BMW always do this.
Im sure its going to be a fantastic car as a daily driver and a pleasure to own, but all this talk of a classic status and none available is premature and dealer hype
Edited by Porscheplayer on Sunday 29th May 09:03
ArmaghMan said:
Porscheplayer said:
ArmaghMan said:
Yeah, those e30 m3's really have fallen off a depreciation cliff!! 0 miles unregd ones are only worth £80k and as for e46 csl values, well they're now down to 320d money (are'nt they?).
I have a suspicion that quite a few will be "put away" by guys who already have a collection. They're too small to run as a daily driver, and will be kept as Sunady drivers or track toys.
Good morning Mr sarcasticI have a suspicion that quite a few will be "put away" by guys who already have a collection. They're too small to run as a daily driver, and will be kept as Sunady drivers or track toys.
No ones talking about cars which have been put away as if it some le mans winning race car and kept for prosperity and if remember rightly the CSL was a disaster when it first came out, it took a long time for dealers to sell them and initially like all m cars their lost a heap of money, so the stupid 320d comparison is complete rubbish. Limited numbers will help the m1, there's a lot hype around this car at the moment. All this talk of the car being sold out is rubbish, dealers have just bought cars as demos and many will have the first owner as BMW, just as my MCar did, BMW always do this.
Im sure its going to be a fantastic car as a daily driver and a pleasure to own, but all this talk of a classic status and none available is premature and dealer hype
Edited by Porscheplayer on Sunday 29th May 09:03
Pugsey said:
By the time anything current becomes a genuine classic I'll be driving a zimmer frame and or be having fun in whatever the latest thing is then. Another reason to buy the car for TODAY and not tomorrow.
Think of it like a nice holiday,nice bottle of wine - enjoy & savour the memories, they never depreciate.Pugsey said:
Cool. Perhaps we'll bump into each other. Er, unfortunate phrasing for the 'Ring! Like to compare notes on mods too. Perhaps you could mail me via here and I'll reply with my e.mail address.
Re racing - don't race the Radical much now. Looking at a few rentadrives at 'Ring later in year and currently also looking at going shares in something post historic. F1,2, or maybe sports prototype. used to race FF, F2000, F3 and F5000 MANY moons ago.
COOL YHMRe racing - don't race the Radical much now. Looking at a few rentadrives at 'Ring later in year and currently also looking at going shares in something post historic. F1,2, or maybe sports prototype. used to race FF, F2000, F3 and F5000 MANY moons ago.
griff7 said:
The hoinda vtecs have been running at 9k limits for years with no issues if serviced when necessary.
True, my S2000 had no issues and also I have not come across any stories of engine issues due to the high revving. That coupled with the 120bhp per litre makes the Honda engine amazing... As I said before the a s2000 engine design is over 10 years old now.It is worth noting the 911 (997) engine has had real issues with pistons shattering and causing engine issues. Engine replacements are a commonplace. Last year Porsche were having issues getting the engines quick enough.
I have no real point, just issues occur with high performance cars... Modifying engines will increase the chance of issues even further.
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