E46 M3 Evolution vs E46 M3
Discussion
I'm looking to upgrade in a year or two, and my choices seem to have boiled down to a late e36 m3 evo or a early e46 m3, or a Mitsubishi Evolution 6. I was wondering who has had any experiences with them (the m3's mainly) and what the differences are in handling, performance, and common faults etc. I appritiate that the e36 is an older car so rust is more of an issue, but is a tidy e36 evo any less rewarding than an e46 to own? The price difference doesnt seem to be that great, (about 2k) and the 'on paper' performance doesnt seem too far apart either. Which is the more rewarding car and why?
Thanks in advance, Mark
Thanks in advance, Mark
no idea about the Jap thing but a couple of pointers on the BMs. (and you might want to change the title on your post as you havent got E36 in it!)
E46 is a better put together car. more solid, better driving position, surroundings, comfort etc. but with that it's a bit heavy and not much in it performance wise against a well sorted E36 M3. I've come up against plenty of E46 M3 and its pretty nip and tuck. The E36 cabin feels a bit old, creaky and dated - nice admittedly, but not as nice as the E46s.
But the word "sell sorted" when referring to the E36 is the problem. Don't forget this car was orginally designed right at the end of the 1980s....thats a long long time ago, so the E46 will have superior suspension design and chassis design - its only its weight that slows the E46 down, and with the M3s it's all about the involving chassis and suspension (oh yes, and both engines aren't bad either!). But the E36 is lighter and by many people's thought (including mine), more involving to drive. The problem is all the bushes/suspension components are 10 years old with even the youngest cars and you are talking £1,000 to refresh all the main ones with good quality replacements - it becomes a bit of a labour of love. The costs aren't massive but there is always something to do to keep your E36 M3 up to spec.
Had my E36 M3 evo for 5+ years and and done 60,000 miles in it. keep looking at and E46s M3s but not sure what more it will give me. (also drive an E46 330 as a daily)
E36 M3 is now old enough to begin shedding its "chav" image - how many really nice ones do you see on the roads now? - E46 does have a bit of a bad image in some areas - as it's becoming cheaper.
Go and drive both - bit of a personal preference now as both are relatively cheap to purchase and then look at loads before you buy. Tons more info on the searches here - hope this helps as a start. ask anything else you want - i'm sure you'll get lots of friendly advice on here. Helps if you are a bit more specific about what you want from the car (eg sunday afternoon drives, track days, commuting, driving in towns etc - that should shape your choice) My M3 E36 was a well used daily driver for the first 3 years but now is retired to more pleasurable pursuits!
E46 is a better put together car. more solid, better driving position, surroundings, comfort etc. but with that it's a bit heavy and not much in it performance wise against a well sorted E36 M3. I've come up against plenty of E46 M3 and its pretty nip and tuck. The E36 cabin feels a bit old, creaky and dated - nice admittedly, but not as nice as the E46s.
But the word "sell sorted" when referring to the E36 is the problem. Don't forget this car was orginally designed right at the end of the 1980s....thats a long long time ago, so the E46 will have superior suspension design and chassis design - its only its weight that slows the E46 down, and with the M3s it's all about the involving chassis and suspension (oh yes, and both engines aren't bad either!). But the E36 is lighter and by many people's thought (including mine), more involving to drive. The problem is all the bushes/suspension components are 10 years old with even the youngest cars and you are talking £1,000 to refresh all the main ones with good quality replacements - it becomes a bit of a labour of love. The costs aren't massive but there is always something to do to keep your E36 M3 up to spec.
Had my E36 M3 evo for 5+ years and and done 60,000 miles in it. keep looking at and E46s M3s but not sure what more it will give me. (also drive an E46 330 as a daily)
E36 M3 is now old enough to begin shedding its "chav" image - how many really nice ones do you see on the roads now? - E46 does have a bit of a bad image in some areas - as it's becoming cheaper.
Go and drive both - bit of a personal preference now as both are relatively cheap to purchase and then look at loads before you buy. Tons more info on the searches here - hope this helps as a start. ask anything else you want - i'm sure you'll get lots of friendly advice on here. Helps if you are a bit more specific about what you want from the car (eg sunday afternoon drives, track days, commuting, driving in towns etc - that should shape your choice) My M3 E36 was a well used daily driver for the first 3 years but now is retired to more pleasurable pursuits!
Hi, thanks for the rapid reply! Not sure how to change the thread title (typo D
. Some very useful infomation there, the car would be my only car, but wouldn't be for commuting, just a for fun and socialising really. I appritiate the chassis comments, the e36 is a old chassis now, but doesnt the evolution have uprated springs and dampers from the standard car? And the dynamics of handling haven't really changed in 20 years, so I'm guessing its still a pretty sorted set up. I've seen some really nice e36's in the classified's, and I guess I'm thinking the same as you, is the extra 2k getting anything useful other than some newer styling. Especially when considering that the 7500 e46's are the bottom of the price bracket so aren't going to be the tidyest. I guess some test drives nearer the time will tell all!
Cheers, Mark
. Some very useful infomation there, the car would be my only car, but wouldn't be for commuting, just a for fun and socialising really. I appritiate the chassis comments, the e36 is a old chassis now, but doesnt the evolution have uprated springs and dampers from the standard car? And the dynamics of handling haven't really changed in 20 years, so I'm guessing its still a pretty sorted set up. I've seen some really nice e36's in the classified's, and I guess I'm thinking the same as you, is the extra 2k getting anything useful other than some newer styling. Especially when considering that the 7500 e46's are the bottom of the price bracket so aren't going to be the tidyest. I guess some test drives nearer the time will tell all!Cheers, Mark
I went from an E36 M3 Evo to an E46 M3 and although the E36 was a decent car, it felt "old tech" in comparison to the E46. Rust and high mileage was the biggest factors in helping me to decide to make the move. With servicing and insurance costs - there's not a lot in it (I needed a tracker for the E36). Performance-wise, again not a lot in it. The E36 has a harder kick at top revs but is a little sluggish low down. The E46 is smoother and pulls all the way through the revs. For me, the E46 feels quicker and is easier to drive harder. And the cabin's a nicer place to be with plenty of gadgets. The e36 felt a little tired inside and that was after I had replaced all of the wood trim!
The thing to remember with both the m cars is they cost a lot to run. If the car you are looking at is really cheap, it might be that the previous owner is getting out before a big job. A friend of mine who buys 911s always says always buy the best car your budget can afford - its far better to buy an older well looked after car than a cheap new one.
Running costs are high for both though
On the EVO 6, a clean and unmolested car will be almost impossible to find. They have very short service intervals, and buying a car without a full history is no different to an m car - a big roll of the big dice.. The good thing about the EVO is all the plastic trinketry has providence and was put on the car for a real WRC winning reason.. They are sublime cars to drive, but the looks and running costs are not for everyone
Take your time trying all of the choices - and keep your heart out of it - this is a head-only decision....buy a bad one of any of the models you suggest and it will turn you upside down and shake every penny from your wallet!
Sounds like you have some fun ahead though - enjoy!
Running costs are high for both though
On the EVO 6, a clean and unmolested car will be almost impossible to find. They have very short service intervals, and buying a car without a full history is no different to an m car - a big roll of the big dice.. The good thing about the EVO is all the plastic trinketry has providence and was put on the car for a real WRC winning reason.. They are sublime cars to drive, but the looks and running costs are not for everyone
Take your time trying all of the choices - and keep your heart out of it - this is a head-only decision....buy a bad one of any of the models you suggest and it will turn you upside down and shake every penny from your wallet!
Sounds like you have some fun ahead though - enjoy!
Thanks for all the advise guys , sounds like I would be better with the e36 then, buying at the top of the game rather than a cheap e46, as for the evo's, I have read various reviews that say they are sublime to drive and great to own, but as mentioned alot have been messed about with and that does put me off :\, guess it will be a case of seeing what comes up at the time
, sounds like I would be better with the e36 then, buying at the top of the game rather than a cheap e46, as for the evo's, I have read various reviews that say they are sublime to drive and great to own, but as mentioned alot have been messed about with and that does put me off :\, guess it will be a case of seeing what comes up at the timeI'd be tempted to save a little longer and buy a decent E46 M3.
A friend recently picked up a very tidy manual coupé for £8k, and it's leaps and bounds better than even a tidy E36. The E46 platform really moved the game on and the differences are huge. The E46 feels much more direct, the E36 feels almost aloof in comparison - the communication just isn't in the same league. Despite this the E46 still rides well and the on-the-limit handling is much more progressive.
The Evo is also a great car but for very different reasons. Of all the Evos the 6 is my favourite (Makkinen) but to me the Evo is a bit heavy-handed. It's a car you grab by the scruff and throw around, whereas the M3 (either version) is more rewarding and requires more finesse.
Drive a good example of all 3 and you'll know which one tugs at your heart strings. They'll all be a little pricey to run, but a good one won't break the bank.
A friend recently picked up a very tidy manual coupé for £8k, and it's leaps and bounds better than even a tidy E36. The E46 platform really moved the game on and the differences are huge. The E46 feels much more direct, the E36 feels almost aloof in comparison - the communication just isn't in the same league. Despite this the E46 still rides well and the on-the-limit handling is much more progressive.
The Evo is also a great car but for very different reasons. Of all the Evos the 6 is my favourite (Makkinen) but to me the Evo is a bit heavy-handed. It's a car you grab by the scruff and throw around, whereas the M3 (either version) is more rewarding and requires more finesse.
Drive a good example of all 3 and you'll know which one tugs at your heart strings. They'll all be a little pricey to run, but a good one won't break the bank.
mjf93 said:
Thanks for all the advise guys , sounds like I would be better with the e36 then, buying at the top of the game rather than a cheap e46, as for the evo's, I have read various reviews that say they are sublime to drive and great to own, but as mentioned alot have been messed about with and that does put me off :\, guess it will be a case of seeing what comes up at the time
An E36 at the top of the market (6-7k) is always going to be a better proposition than an E46 at the bottom of the market (7-8k). The differences between the 2, although they are more than simply cosmetic, don't warrant a 3-4k price increase. , sounds like I would be better with the e36 then, buying at the top of the game rather than a cheap e46, as for the evo's, I have read various reviews that say they are sublime to drive and great to own, but as mentioned alot have been messed about with and that does put me off :\, guess it will be a case of seeing what comes up at the timeA 7k E46 is akin to 4k E36 - at that price, it's gonna be leggy, tired and need a fair bit spent to bring it up to full standard. So for a really sorted and looked after E36 at 6-7k, you'd be looking at spending 10k+ for a similar condition E46.
Ultimately the E46 has the edge as it's a newer design, although a lot will come down to personal preference.
E46 prices are still dropping, so depends on your budget really - I'm sure that there are bargains to be had.
The E36 M3 is the weak link in all the M3 models released. See this week's Autocar for reference ....
However, I would choose a E46 M3 Coupe anyday.
However, buying on the top of the market V bottom of the market changes things somewhat. A best of the best E36 M3 I am sure is better for fun and satisfying than a very tired, neglected, leggy E46 M3. Or save up for a good E46 .... U going to need at least 10k or wait for prices to go down ...:
However, I would choose a E46 M3 Coupe anyday.
However, buying on the top of the market V bottom of the market changes things somewhat. A best of the best E36 M3 I am sure is better for fun and satisfying than a very tired, neglected, leggy E46 M3. Or save up for a good E46 .... U going to need at least 10k or wait for prices to go down ...:
thepony said:
The E36 M3 is the weak link in all the M3 models released. See this week's Autocar for reference .......:
Hmmm....whilst i agree in a part, i think you have to look at the prices.E30M3 at least £15,000 for an ok one now - great fun, nice looking, and iconic, but wildly overpriced (IMO) when driven on the Uk's terrible roads sitting on the wrong side and without serious money being continually thrown at it to keep it in tip top spec and it can be outhandled by many modern cars on half the budget etc
thepony said:
However, buying on the top of the market V bottom of the market changes things somewhat. A best of the best E36 M3 I am sure is better for fun and satisfying than a very tired, neglected, leggy E46 M3. Or save up for a good E46 .... U going to need at least 10k or wait for prices to go down
E46M3 I 100% agree with you - need to spend £10,000+ to avoid the tired leggy ones on the market in the sub £8k bracketE36M3(evo) - i agree not the best when compared to the others, but you'd be amazed that £4,000+ can still get you a very good one, no need to spend £7,000 - £8,000. plenty to choose from. It's still a 170mph car.
It's now, nowhere near as expensive to maintain as everyone thinks. Yes, i know there is the famous "M" tax on all the parts you buy. 5 years ago they were expensive to maintain, but not so much now. Inspecs I & II at indys done now at v reasonable prices. Lots of places selling M quality and spec parts at fairer prices. pretty bullet proof mechanicals (SMG box aside) even the Vanos can be fully replaced for £500 - you were looking at over £2,000 for this job when i bought my M3 five years ago.
thepony said:
However, I would choose a E46 M3 Coupe anyday.
compeletely personal choice - i'm still stuck in my time warp with my E36M3 Evo - and that's what i love about Pistonheads - we're all different and fight our corners - wouldn't it be boring if we all liked the same car for the same reason......muzza289 said:
thepony said:
However, buying on the top of the market V bottom of the market changes things somewhat. A best of the best E36 M3 I am sure is better for fun and satisfying than a very tired, neglected, leggy E46 M3. Or save up for a good E46 .... U going to need at least 10k or wait for prices to go down
E46M3 I 100% agree with you - need to spend £10,000+ to avoid the tired leggy ones on the market in the sub £8k bracketI done the opposite of a few that have posted here.
I went from an E46 M3 to an E36 M3 Evo Imola Individual.
I find the change to be a good move for a few reasons
1. the E36 is a safer place to ahve money if your nthat way inclined. My E46 lost me around £2k in a year, which compared to the E36 M3 is slowly rising in value (for good ones)
2. In my opinion the E36 is a much better put together car, it doesnt squeak, rattle, or creak, which my E46 started to do, and i could never find the source of them. Granted its not as new or luxurious as the E46, but the Vader Seats make up for it.
3. They both have their niggles, E36s with their rusty arches and the vanos's, and the E46 with rust and subframe issues.
4. The E36 is a more raw driving experience, no DSC, Air Pressures etc, just you and an engine.
i enjoy driving my E36 so much i bought an E36 M3 3.0 for a daily hack. I love them
I went from an E46 M3 to an E36 M3 Evo Imola Individual.
I find the change to be a good move for a few reasons
1. the E36 is a safer place to ahve money if your nthat way inclined. My E46 lost me around £2k in a year, which compared to the E36 M3 is slowly rising in value (for good ones)
2. In my opinion the E36 is a much better put together car, it doesnt squeak, rattle, or creak, which my E46 started to do, and i could never find the source of them. Granted its not as new or luxurious as the E46, but the Vader Seats make up for it.
3. They both have their niggles, E36s with their rusty arches and the vanos's, and the E46 with rust and subframe issues.
4. The E36 is a more raw driving experience, no DSC, Air Pressures etc, just you and an engine.
i enjoy driving my E36 so much i bought an E36 M3 3.0 for a daily hack. I love them
benny.c said:
I don't agree with this. I'm sure there are many snotters about but you don't need to spend £10K+ to get a decent E46 M3. Mine was just over £6K; 119K miles, two owners, FBMWSH, just had inspection 1, new brakes, bushes etc. If you look around there are decent E46 M3s for OK money.
Just to echo your sentiment... My brother bought a £5k E46 M3 to turn into a drift car... It was so good, it pained him to strip it... http://www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&a...
muzza289 said:
no idea about the Jap thing but a couple of pointers on the BMs. (and you might want to change the title on your post as you havent got E36 in it!)
E46 is a better put together car. more solid, better driving position, surroundings, comfort etc. but with that it's a bit heavy and not much in it performance wise against a well sorted E36 M3. I've come up against plenty of E46 M3 and its pretty nip and tuck. The E36 cabin feels a bit old, creaky and dated - nice admittedly, but not as nice as the E46s.
But the word "sell sorted" when referring to the E36 is the problem. Don't forget this car was orginally designed right at the end of the 1980s....thats a long long time ago, so the E46 will have superior suspension design and chassis design - its only its weight that slows the E46 down, and with the M3s it's all about the involving chassis and suspension (oh yes, and both engines aren't bad either!). But the E36 is lighter and by many people's thought (including mine), more involving to drive. The problem is all the bushes/suspension components are 10 years old with even the youngest cars and you are talking £1,000 to refresh all the main ones with good quality replacements - it becomes a bit of a labour of love. The costs aren't massive but there is always something to do to keep your E36 M3 up to spec.
Had my E36 M3 evo for 5+ years and and done 60,000 miles in it. keep looking at and E46s M3s but not sure what more it will give me. (also drive an E46 330 as a daily)
E36 M3 is now old enough to begin shedding its "chav" image - how many really nice ones do you see on the roads now? - E46 does have a bit of a bad image in some areas - as it's becoming cheaper.
Go and drive both - bit of a personal preference now as both are relatively cheap to purchase and then look at loads before you buy. Tons more info on the searches here - hope this helps as a start. ask anything else you want - i'm sure you'll get lots of friendly advice on here. Helps if you are a bit more specific about what you want from the car (eg sunday afternoon drives, track days, commuting, driving in towns etc - that should shape your choice) My M3 E36 was a well used daily driver for the first 3 years but now is retired to more pleasurable pursuits!
Agree with this pretty much. I have an e36 evo, through choice, not lack of funds. It's as quick as the 46 for half the price. If anything happens to it i'll get a 46 instead, but they really are that good. E46 is a better put together car. more solid, better driving position, surroundings, comfort etc. but with that it's a bit heavy and not much in it performance wise against a well sorted E36 M3. I've come up against plenty of E46 M3 and its pretty nip and tuck. The E36 cabin feels a bit old, creaky and dated - nice admittedly, but not as nice as the E46s.
But the word "sell sorted" when referring to the E36 is the problem. Don't forget this car was orginally designed right at the end of the 1980s....thats a long long time ago, so the E46 will have superior suspension design and chassis design - its only its weight that slows the E46 down, and with the M3s it's all about the involving chassis and suspension (oh yes, and both engines aren't bad either!). But the E36 is lighter and by many people's thought (including mine), more involving to drive. The problem is all the bushes/suspension components are 10 years old with even the youngest cars and you are talking £1,000 to refresh all the main ones with good quality replacements - it becomes a bit of a labour of love. The costs aren't massive but there is always something to do to keep your E36 M3 up to spec.
Had my E36 M3 evo for 5+ years and and done 60,000 miles in it. keep looking at and E46s M3s but not sure what more it will give me. (also drive an E46 330 as a daily)
E36 M3 is now old enough to begin shedding its "chav" image - how many really nice ones do you see on the roads now? - E46 does have a bit of a bad image in some areas - as it's becoming cheaper.
Go and drive both - bit of a personal preference now as both are relatively cheap to purchase and then look at loads before you buy. Tons more info on the searches here - hope this helps as a start. ask anything else you want - i'm sure you'll get lots of friendly advice on here. Helps if you are a bit more specific about what you want from the car (eg sunday afternoon drives, track days, commuting, driving in towns etc - that should shape your choice) My M3 E36 was a well used daily driver for the first 3 years but now is retired to more pleasurable pursuits!
Keep it standard and well maintained and theyre a cracker to own. For a significant jump in performance you need to spend quite a few thousand more.
mjf93 said:
I'm looking to upgrade in a year or two
Wouldn't you be better off asking the question in a year or two then? All information you might obtain in this thread will have little value when said cars are that much older and prices have changed. Your preferences and the available choices may also change in between... Firstly I can't comment on the Evo, as I don't have much experience of them.
M3 wise (E36 M3 Evo v E46 M3)
The brief summary is that as you could guess, the E46 M3 is the newer and more developed car. However that can be a subjective thing as many people prefer the rawer E36 M3.
Money wise, the E36 M3 is a safer place to put your money than the E46 at the moment. The E36 is shedding its "chav" image at the moment and the "bad" ones are being cast aside. The E46 M3, is well becoming quite "popular".
To drive, I found the E46 a little remote in some ways, the steering didn't have loads of feel or weight. A friend described it as feeling where the car is through the seat of your pants, literally. While I believe there is more feel (though not much) through the E36 Evo Rack, its speed and weighting is all over the place. Too slow in general and too heavy at low speeds.
Brakes wise, I found both have great brakes.
Engine wise, the E46 M3 has more "zing". Possibly due to the tweaked engine and shorter gearing. The metallic rasp found in the E46 isn't really present in the E36 I've found. However the E36's engine pulls really well , if anything its a bigger suprise due it is perceived age / lack of technology. Both pull very well straight to their redline... Both also sound superb.
To drive, I've found the E36 something I would want to tackle a road in a smooth fashion. The E46 I found encourages you to drive like a looney.
Both cars feel special, especially during their warm up idle. However the E46s body work being unique, has the edge. However there is something about the E36s now classically dated looks that has a charm and charisma the E46 doesn't have.
Ultimately both are truly great cars. Hopefully not apparently obvious I have an E36 M3 Evo Saloon.
I don't dismiss that the E46 is the slightly better car, but the E36 has a character, that is missing in the E46. Is now growing classic lines and age, along with similar underpinnings give it an edge in my opinion. Tinkering with the car things make me smile about the car, the inline straight six with individual throttle bodies stretched out in the engine bay, the floating discs, the off beat idle when warming, pulling like a steam train off a slip road, the mechanical gear change...
M3 wise (E36 M3 Evo v E46 M3)
The brief summary is that as you could guess, the E46 M3 is the newer and more developed car. However that can be a subjective thing as many people prefer the rawer E36 M3.
Money wise, the E36 M3 is a safer place to put your money than the E46 at the moment. The E36 is shedding its "chav" image at the moment and the "bad" ones are being cast aside. The E46 M3, is well becoming quite "popular".
To drive, I found the E46 a little remote in some ways, the steering didn't have loads of feel or weight. A friend described it as feeling where the car is through the seat of your pants, literally. While I believe there is more feel (though not much) through the E36 Evo Rack, its speed and weighting is all over the place. Too slow in general and too heavy at low speeds.
Brakes wise, I found both have great brakes.
Engine wise, the E46 M3 has more "zing". Possibly due to the tweaked engine and shorter gearing. The metallic rasp found in the E46 isn't really present in the E36 I've found. However the E36's engine pulls really well , if anything its a bigger suprise due it is perceived age / lack of technology. Both pull very well straight to their redline... Both also sound superb.
To drive, I've found the E36 something I would want to tackle a road in a smooth fashion. The E46 I found encourages you to drive like a looney.
Both cars feel special, especially during their warm up idle. However the E46s body work being unique, has the edge. However there is something about the E36s now classically dated looks that has a charm and charisma the E46 doesn't have.
Ultimately both are truly great cars. Hopefully not apparently obvious I have an E36 M3 Evo Saloon.
I don't dismiss that the E46 is the slightly better car, but the E36 has a character, that is missing in the E46. Is now growing classic lines and age, along with similar underpinnings give it an edge in my opinion. Tinkering with the car things make me smile about the car, the inline straight six with individual throttle bodies stretched out in the engine bay, the floating discs, the off beat idle when warming, pulling like a steam train off a slip road, the mechanical gear change...
bennyboysvuk said:
I loved my E36 M3 and would consider another, however is it possible to find one these days completely free of rust? I recall that the rear arches often rust from the inside meaning that once you can see the damage, it's already quite severe.
e.g. This is my 328 Sport from 1996:
That's a known issue spot on them. I throw a load of grease inside the arches on mine at least once a year.e.g. This is my 328 Sport from 1996:
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