E39 M5 prices on the rise ?

[Carlton Banks]

What are the key indicators of a facelift car?

I am looking at an 03 and just assumed it was facelift - reading the above I am concerned it could be prefacelift......

[Carlton Banks]

What are the key indicators of a facelift car?

I am looking at an 03 and just assumed it was facelift - reading the above I am concerned it could be prefacelift......

[Fezzaman]

Carlton Banks said:

What are the key indicators of a facelift car?

I am looking at an 03 and just assumed it was facelift - reading the above I am concerned it could be prefacelift......

Unless the 03 was a car sat around and registered late, I'd be pretty certain it's a facelift but as for differences, lots of little things but probably not limited to:
Steering wheel design with the round centre like in an E46 M
Oval rear view mirror on facelifts
Grey dials rather than the black of pre-facelifts
Facelifts had 16:9 Nav rather than 4:3 I think - basically the wheel and nav on prefacelifts are what you'd find in an E38 7er and the facelifts had the wheel and nav design you'd see in an E46 CSL (some early M3s had the 4:3 nav if i remember the press bumpf correctly)
Front lights with 'angel eyes'
Rear lights

A lot of this stuff can be retrofitted and as you say confusion with registration date and build dates makes it a little bit trickier to be certain

Mechanically I'll leave it to the more informed to tell you about VANOS and oil consumption etc

Edited by Fezzaman on Thursday 8th May 14:06

[TheAngryDog]

Fezzaman said:

Carlton Banks said:

What are the key indicators of a facelift car?

I am looking at an 03 and just assumed it was facelift - reading the above I am concerned it could be prefacelift......

Unless the 03 was a car sat around and registered late, I'd be pretty certain it's a facelift but as for differences, lots of little things but probably not limited to:
Steering wheel design with the round centre like in an E46 M
Oval rear view mirror on facelifts
Grey dials rather than the black of pre-facelifts
Facelifts had 16:9 Nav rather than 4:3 I think - basically the wheel and nav on prefacelifts are what you'd find in an E38 7er and the facelifts had the wheel and nav design you'd see in an E46 CSL (some early M3s had the 4:3 nav if i remember the press bumpf correctly)
Front lights with 'angel eyes'
Rear lights

A lot of this stuff can be retrofitted and as you say confusion with registration date and build dates makes it a little bit trickier to be certain

Mechanically I'll leave it to the more informed to tell you about VANOS and oil consumption etc

Edited by Fezzaman on Thursday 8th May 14:06

Not all cars have NAV fitted, so its not really a good indicator. Pre face lift cars didnt have rear curtain airbags, so that would be a pretty good indicator.

VANOS doesnt always prove much. My pre FL car appears to have many of the face lift VANOS parts, It also has the grey dials.

Iirc, front PDC wasnt available on pre fl cars, and its an awkward retro fit, so i would imagine a car with front PDC is a face lift.

I would be very surprised to find that an 03 car had been sitting around unregistered if it was built in 99/00/before 09/01.

[RichardM5]

Carlton Banks said:

What are the key indicators of a facelift car?

I am looking at an 03 and just assumed it was facelift - reading the above I am concerned it could be prefacelift......

Check the last 7 digits of the VIN, that will end all speculation. Facelift have VIN ranges of BJ11267 to BJ11999 and CB37000 to CB37594.

But as said, the easily spotted differentiators are the lights, steering wheel type, cluster colour and Nav monitor. All of which are pretty easy to change, the rear lights are hardest as you have to cut and bend a bit of the bodywork. There are various other changes that occurred around the facelift time such as the radio module type for Nav (BM24 to BM54), round OBD port in the engine compartment to the trapezoid version by the drivers knee, MK II to MK III Nav and eventually MK IV in September 2002 etc.

Only very early cars had rectangular rear view mirrors fitted.

[ArmaghMan]

Fezzaman said:

Depthhoar said:

LaSource said: "do you guys really see much up side or just a slight strengthening of values given the relatively high production numbers?"

Around 2500 RHD models manufactured?

My feeling is that values will only slowly strengthen or, more likely, stabilise in the short to medium term. In the longer term, I think prices will rise in response to a diminishing supply - older/heavily-used/written-off cars disappearing from circulation etc.. The owner profile will also probably change as the pool of vehicles diminishes to a limited number of cherished/restored vehicles. These owners may well keep their vehicles for investment but also for a limited (very low annual mileage) amount of driving fun. At that time I've got a feeling prices will become significantly more buoyant.

In some ways the E39 M5 may become a bit like - or at least viewed like - the Porsche (993) 911: the last air-cooled 911, the last 'proper' Porsche in some people's estimation. The Beast will probably be the last manual M5, the last one not totally emasculated by electronic wizardry interfering with the driver experience. Perhaps this will add to its desirability and residuals, much like the 993 right now. (Some might say that the E34 M5 already has the bragging rights as the last true M5..and maybe they're right?)

Just my two cents worth....

Edited by Depthhoar on Thursday 1st May 23:57

Just worked my way through this thread, can't believe a year has passed since I remember reading the first half :| While I agree entirely with the second half of what you say about it being one of the last old school cars akin to the 993, it is interesting that you mention the long term prospects and owner profile of the car. While I am a big fan of the E39 and moreover this iteration of the M5, IF the owner profile down the line becomes the kind of person who will do limited mileage at weekends/high days and holidays I don't think their choice of car would be an E39 M5 and as such it may not appreciate for those reasons. I've only ever been in an E39 M5 nearly 10 years ago when they were still around aplenty on AUC forecourts but if I had one I would use it everyday as it was intended to be - perhaps the car has shot itself in the foot by being such a competent all rounder that it becomes too difficult to use in limited doses due to a lack of inherent compromises in the 'lairiness' of the car or practicality as other 'future classics' like a CSL or even a 1M

I guess what I'm saying is in the hypothetical dream garage many would definitely have an E39 M5 but it wouldn't be in the weekend car category, it would be the chariot of choice for everyday duties with a seriously healthy dose of M. If BMW made a brand new one today I bet plenty of people would queue up for one knowing that it's fresh from the factory with a lovely blend of character, power, usability, practicality, build quality and ready for thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of miles of pretty much any kind of road and possibly track use. I pity those that have done very low mileage in these as obviously the cars will still age from lack of use especially stored outside and won't preserve that factory freshness as a well used one that's been fully restored down the line.

Very succinct and accurate post. I have an M5 as a second car/ fun car. It was my daily for 2 years and just couldn't get rid of it. However as a second car I can't help but feel that it falls short, great car though it is. It's just too big, too sensible, too much.

[scarecrow]

Just sold mine to a great bloke from Ireland.
Going to cost him 2k to import and 1.8k to tax!

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/lightbox?ad...

Really going to miss it. Best car I have ever had!
I will get another when the time is right though.

[Patrick Bateman]

Fezzaman said:

Just worked my way through this thread, can't believe a year has passed since I remember reading the first half :| While I agree entirely with the second half of what you say about it being one of the last old school cars akin to the 993, it is interesting that you mention the long term prospects and owner profile of the car. While I am a big fan of the E39 and moreover this iteration of the M5, IF the owner profile down the line becomes the kind of person who will do limited mileage at weekends/high days and holidays I don't think their choice of car would be an E39 M5 and as such it may not appreciate for those reasons. I've only ever been in an E39 M5 nearly 10 years ago when they were still around aplenty on AUC forecourts but if I had one I would use it everyday as it was intended to be - perhaps the car has shot itself in the foot by being such a competent all rounder that it becomes too difficult to use in limited doses due to a lack of inherent compromises in the 'lairiness' of the car or practicality as other 'future classics' like a CSL or even a 1M

I guess what I'm saying is in the hypothetical dream garage many would definitely have an E39 M5 but it wouldn't be in the weekend car category, it would be the chariot of choice for everyday duties with a seriously healthy dose of M. If BMW made a brand new one today I bet plenty of people would queue up for one knowing that it's fresh from the factory with a lovely blend of character, power, usability, practicality, build quality and ready for thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of miles of pretty much any kind of road and possibly track use. I pity those that have done very low mileage in these as obviously the cars will still age from lack of use especially stored outside and won't preserve that factory freshness as a well used one that's been fully restored down the line.

That's the way I see it. They're too good at too much to not enjoy as often as possible.

[Mo D]

ArmaghMan said:

Fezzaman said:

Depthhoar said:

LaSource said: "do you guys really see much up side or just a slight strengthening of values given the relatively high production numbers?"

Around 2500 RHD models manufactured?

My feeling is that values will only slowly strengthen or, more likely, stabilise in the short to medium term. In the longer term, I think prices will rise in response to a diminishing supply - older/heavily-used/written-off cars disappearing from circulation etc.. The owner profile will also probably change as the pool of vehicles diminishes to a limited number of cherished/restored vehicles. These owners may well keep their vehicles for investment but also for a limited (very low annual mileage) amount of driving fun. At that time I've got a feeling prices will become significantly more buoyant.

In some ways the E39 M5 may become a bit like - or at least viewed like - the Porsche (993) 911: the last air-cooled 911, the last 'proper' Porsche in some people's estimation. The Beast will probably be the last manual M5, the last one not totally emasculated by electronic wizardry interfering with the driver experience. Perhaps this will add to its desirability and residuals, much like the 993 right now. (Some might say that the E34 M5 already has the bragging rights as the last true M5..and maybe they're right?)

Just my two cents worth....

Edited by Depthhoar on Thursday 1st May 23:57

Just worked my way through this thread, can't believe a year has passed since I remember reading the first half :| While I agree entirely with the second half of what you say about it being one of the last old school cars akin to the 993, it is interesting that you mention the long term prospects and owner profile of the car. While I am a big fan of the E39 and moreover this iteration of the M5, IF the owner profile down the line becomes the kind of person who will do limited mileage at weekends/high days and holidays I don't think their choice of car would be an E39 M5 and as such it may not appreciate for those reasons. I've only ever been in an E39 M5 nearly 10 years ago when they were still around aplenty on AUC forecourts but if I had one I would use it everyday as it was intended to be - perhaps the car has shot itself in the foot by being such a competent all rounder that it becomes too difficult to use in limited doses due to a lack of inherent compromises in the 'lairiness' of the car or practicality as other 'future classics' like a CSL or even a 1M

I guess what I'm saying is in the hypothetical dream garage many would definitely have an E39 M5 but it wouldn't be in the weekend car category, it would be the chariot of choice for everyday duties with a seriously healthy dose of M. If BMW made a brand new one today I bet plenty of people would queue up for one knowing that it's fresh from the factory with a lovely blend of character, power, usability, practicality, build quality and ready for thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of miles of pretty much any kind of road and possibly track use. I pity those that have done very low mileage in these as obviously the cars will still age from lack of use especially stored outside and won't preserve that factory freshness as a well used one that's been fully restored down the line.

Very succinct and accurate post. I have an M5 as a second car/ fun car. It was my daily for 2 years and just couldn't get rid of it. However as a second car I can't help but feel that it falls short, great car though it is. It's just too big, too sensible, too much.

Thanks all for this insight, for some reason I always thought of getting an E39 M5, it would be my first M car. I've been looking a second car, a fun weekend car, as I currently commute 420 miles a week to work in my E39 525i, I always suspected it might not be the best car for this, as it would be far to similar to my current car (even though it has more than double the power).

The thing with the E46 M3 is the subframe issues, scary stuff and knowing that it will break eventually and will cost £1,000's to fix if its older than 10 years old (which most of them will be).

Still can't help but think the E39 M5 is the ultimate M car.

[m5touringv10]

Hi guys, anyone familiar with car:

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/b...

Is it a bit overpriced?

[nonuts]

m5touringv10 said:

Hi guys, anyone familiar with car:

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/b...

Is it a bit overpriced?

Seems very expensive, I'd want the history and condition to be perfect for that money and even then it may be pushing it.

[43034]

m5touringv10 said:

Hi guys, anyone familiar with car:

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/b...

Is it a bit overpriced?

No idea about the car but the number plate does not read pyscho. Nothing like it!

[m5touringv10]

nonuts said:

Seems very expensive, I'd want the history and condition to be perfect for that money and even then it may be pushing it.

Would you say 14.5k is a fair price if history is complete and in top condition?

[ArmaghMan]

nonuts said:

m5touringv10 said:

Hi guys, anyone familiar with car:

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/b...

Is it a bit overpriced?

Seems very expensive, I'd want the history and condition to be perfect for that money and even then it may be pushing it.

No mention of a service history?
I know nothing of this car, but 3years ago bought a 48000 mile pre facelift M5. I reckon I have replaced every suspension part on the front of the car since then. If I was buying this I'd be checking to see what if anything was original and what had been replaced. Low mileage does not necessarily mean no big bills comming!

[Depthhoar]

m5touringv10 said:

Hi guys, anyone familiar with car:

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/b...

Is it a bit overpriced?

I paid circa £9k in a private sale last August for an 2001 model with 78k miles on the clock (same colour as the one you're looking at, too). Was in excellent condition with an unblemished service/maintenance history with all the receipts etc..

£16k is very strong indeed for a private sale, as is £14.5k. That sort of money will get you a good one from a dealer with the back up of some sort of warranty and/or SOGA rights.

56k miles is low mileage but as, others have pointed out, you need to know a lot more about the service & maintenance history. Low mileage isn't everything. The E39 M5 will exceed 200k miles if properly maintained since they're durable and robust machines...as long as maintenance/servicing has been intensive. There will be 100k+ mile cars out there that may require less work/money spent on them than the one you're looking at. It's entirely possible that you may be in for suspension or brake work at 56k if it hasn't been done already. (Just as an eg. these beasts will sting you +/- £700 just to change out the front brake rotors and pads using OEM parts.)

The nightmare scenario is to pay top money and then immediately have to lash out £2-3k to fettle the Beast.

[m5touringv10]

ArmaghMan said:

No mention of a service history?
I know nothing of this car, but 3years ago bought a 48000 mile pre facelift M5. I reckon I have replaced every suspension part on the front of the car since then. If I was buying this I'd be checking to see what if anything was original and what had been replaced. Low mileage does not necessarily mean no big bills comming!

Yeah that's true, better find out about service history!
For some reason assumed it had fsh.

[m5touringv10]

Depthhoar said:

I paid circa £9k in a private sale last August for an 2001 model with 78k miles on the clock (same colour as the one you're looking at, too). Was in excellent condition with an unblemished service/maintenance history with all the receipts etc..

£16k is very strong indeed for a private sale, as is £14.5k. That sort of money will get you a good one from a dealer with the back up of some sort of warranty and/or SOGA rights.

56k miles is low mileage but as, others have pointed out, you need to know a lot more about the service & maintenance history. Low mileage isn't everything. The E39 M5 will exceed 200k miles if properly maintained since they're durable and robust machines...as long as maintenance/servicing has been intensive. There will be 100k+ mile cars out there that may require less work/money spent on them than the one you're looking at. It's entirely possible that you may be in for suspension or brake work at 56k if it hasn't been done already. (Just as an eg. these beasts will sting you +/- £700 just to change out the front brake rotors and pads using OEM parts.)

The nightmare scenario is to pay top money and then immediately have to lash out £2-3k to fettle the Beast.

Would suspension issues be covered with a warranty?

[POORCARDEALER]

Depthhoar said:

m5touringv10 said:

Hi guys, anyone familiar with car:

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/b...

Is it a bit overpriced?

I paid circa £9k in a private sale last August for an 2001 model with 78k miles on the clock (same colour as the one you're looking at, too). Was in excellent condition with an unblemished service/maintenance history with all the receipts etc..

£16k is very strong indeed for a private sale, as is £14.5k. That sort of money will get you a good one from a dealer with the back up of some sort of warranty and/or SOGA rights.

56k miles is low mileage but as, others have pointed out, you need to know a lot more about the service & maintenance history. Low mileage isn't everything. The E39 M5 will exceed 200k miles if properly maintained since they're durable and robust machines...as long as maintenance/servicing has been intensive. There will be 100k+ mile cars out there that may require less work/money spent on them than the one you're looking at. It's entirely possible that you may be in for suspension or brake work at 56k if it hasn't been done already. (Just as an eg. these beasts will sting you +/- £700 just to change out the front brake rotors and pads using OEM parts.)

The nightmare scenario is to pay top money and then immediately have to lash out £2-3k to fettle the Beast.

Not sure you would buy your car today for 9K, they have definitely risen since last year....that car at 16.5K looks very very strong money, private sale 12/13 is nearer the mark unless it has a PPI and needs absolutely nothing

[roofer]

m5touringv10 said:

Hi guys, anyone familiar with car:

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/b...

Is it a bit overpriced?

Its a catch 22 with that one. Personally, i would have expected a more informative advert.

If you keep the miles low on it, it may hold its value, but that defeats the object of buying it.

Hexagon commands, and gets strong money for minters, but they have warranty. My previous pre FL one had 14k worth of warranty work on it (Never had i been so happy to pay the £1850 warranty renewal)

If the one advertised for 16k had a gold plated BMW warranty with it, and 100% spot on service history, i'd bid 14 on it.

[m5touringv10]

roofer said:

Its a catch 22 with that one. Personally, i would have expected a more informative advert.

If you keep the miles low on it, it may hold its value, but that defeats the object of buying it.

Hexagon commands, and gets strong money for minters, but they have warranty. My previous pre FL one had 14k worth of warranty work on it (Never had i been so happy to pay the £1850 warranty renewal)

If the one advertised for 16k had a gold plated BMW warranty with it, and 100% spot on service history, i'd bid 14 on it.

One strange thing with the ad is that the options list seems to be a copy and paste from another ad:

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/b...

Must be lazy like me!