Discussion
cs1874 said:
This whole type of thread boils my blood….nothing but a load of pompous, pretentious, macho posturing, my M is more M than you're M so it shouldn't be allowed in this section crap!!
Grow up FFS.
And no, I don't have an M135i….I have an E92 M3.
RANT OVER…..for now anyway.
Breathe. Grow up FFS.
And no, I don't have an M135i….I have an E92 M3.
RANT OVER…..for now anyway.
Palmball said:
If the definition of an M-car is an E30 M3 (and it's fully understandable if some people think thats the case), most us may as well leave now.
However, I personally don't think many modern-day M cars (E36 onwards, with a few exceptions like E46 CSL) follow that same ethos and a such, the cars you see today are a reflection of the brand as it has been for a very long time. Wasn't the E30 derived out of a genuine Motorsport need? I don't think many subsequent M cars since (if any, possibly bar the stripped out specials?) have had the Motorsport authenticity behind them.
Like it or not, I highly doubt the majority of potential customers would want such a focussed stripped-out car for everyday use so BMW instead quickly evolved 'M' to appeal to the masses, adding refinement, technology and luxury to each iteration. I'll be honest (flame suit at the ready), I probably wouldn't be a customer if the cars were still of the same ethos as the E30 and I like the fact that current M-cars have all the technology, refinement, luxury etc. I do admit that I wish my car was a [i]bit[/i[ more focussed and (a fair bit!) lighter but, for the price I paid, I sure wouldn't want to give up any of the luxury or refinement (so BMW M, you need to work harder!). I am very excited about the M3/4 which promises just this - lighter, more focussed and yet probably more luxurious than it's predecessor....all at the same time.
As such, I don't think any of the cars mentioned are a dilution of the modern-day brand - they're all (even the SUV's...flame suit now fully on!!) super high-performance iterations of the respective base car - they have a sporting focus if not the outright sports-focus that so many seem to think they should be. So we, one can mourn the dilution of the M-brand, but I'd suggest it's about 20 years too late!
Also, had BMW made the 1M as a stripped-out racer, then reading many of the stories on PH from the actual owners of 1M's, I doubt many of these would've been used in the way they have been (essentially as fun, mini-GT's). Therefore, many of these punters wouldn't have existed for such a car and the question is whether those who would've been actually would've have bought one?
Some very valid points there, and I agree that //M-cars have moved away from their origins by a fair degree. Now, leaving asides the fact that BMW are a hugely successful car manufacturer making big profits from their current trajectory, I would ultimately have preferred their Motorsport division to have continued to make slightly more uncompromising performance cars, and used Alpina as the producer of bespoke AMG-rivalling GT coupes and saloons. However these two "departments", for want of a much better word, now almost seem to be competing for the same marketHowever, I personally don't think many modern-day M cars (E36 onwards, with a few exceptions like E46 CSL) follow that same ethos and a such, the cars you see today are a reflection of the brand as it has been for a very long time. Wasn't the E30 derived out of a genuine Motorsport need? I don't think many subsequent M cars since (if any, possibly bar the stripped out specials?) have had the Motorsport authenticity behind them.
Like it or not, I highly doubt the majority of potential customers would want such a focussed stripped-out car for everyday use so BMW instead quickly evolved 'M' to appeal to the masses, adding refinement, technology and luxury to each iteration. I'll be honest (flame suit at the ready), I probably wouldn't be a customer if the cars were still of the same ethos as the E30 and I like the fact that current M-cars have all the technology, refinement, luxury etc. I do admit that I wish my car was a [i]bit[/i[ more focussed and (a fair bit!) lighter but, for the price I paid, I sure wouldn't want to give up any of the luxury or refinement (so BMW M, you need to work harder!). I am very excited about the M3/4 which promises just this - lighter, more focussed and yet probably more luxurious than it's predecessor....all at the same time.
As such, I don't think any of the cars mentioned are a dilution of the modern-day brand - they're all (even the SUV's...flame suit now fully on!!) super high-performance iterations of the respective base car - they have a sporting focus if not the outright sports-focus that so many seem to think they should be. So we, one can mourn the dilution of the M-brand, but I'd suggest it's about 20 years too late!
Also, had BMW made the 1M as a stripped-out racer, then reading many of the stories on PH from the actual owners of 1M's, I doubt many of these would've been used in the way they have been (essentially as fun, mini-GT's). Therefore, many of these punters wouldn't have existed for such a car and the question is whether those who would've been actually would've have bought one?
This is not to try and imply that any BMW-badged car is better than another, just that the lines have all become a bit blurred for me and the purpose of each not as we'll defined as it maybe once was
I think some people need refreshed on BMW history a tad.
The E30 was built to a set of rules so it could be entered in touring car racing. BMW have only done this once with a road car since the E30 M3 and it was called the E90 320SI. No other BMW has been built or designed in the same way as the E30. I think people need to stop linking flared arches to motorsport roots!
As for the comment about bespoke BMW ///M engines, the S85 and S65 were freaks in that they were the only road going BMW engines that werent based on the standard road car engines. EVERY other engine that has gone in to an ///M car were based on a standard engines albeit heavily modified.
The M135i is not an ///M car and nobody is trying to say it is.
However it is a performance based BMW i.e. a drivers car. So the threads about the M135i are more suited to the ///M car forum than the normal BMW in which standard chat is of diesel, mpg, egr valves and strecthy timing chains.
I've driven or passengered in nearly every ///M car built in the last 20 years and the powertrain in the M135i stands up with the VERY best of them.
The E30 was built to a set of rules so it could be entered in touring car racing. BMW have only done this once with a road car since the E30 M3 and it was called the E90 320SI. No other BMW has been built or designed in the same way as the E30. I think people need to stop linking flared arches to motorsport roots!
As for the comment about bespoke BMW ///M engines, the S85 and S65 were freaks in that they were the only road going BMW engines that werent based on the standard road car engines. EVERY other engine that has gone in to an ///M car were based on a standard engines albeit heavily modified.
The M135i is not an ///M car and nobody is trying to say it is.
However it is a performance based BMW i.e. a drivers car. So the threads about the M135i are more suited to the ///M car forum than the normal BMW in which standard chat is of diesel, mpg, egr valves and strecthy timing chains.
I've driven or passengered in nearly every ///M car built in the last 20 years and the powertrain in the M135i stands up with the VERY best of them.
Palmball said:
If you are already in Sport+ mode, you're already in DTC mode (the half-way house). This is effectively like pushing there DSC off butting once, but also sharpens the throttle and, if you have adaptive dynamics, whacks your suspension into it's harder setting.
When you subsequently hit the DSC off button again (remember, you've already effectively selected it once by putting your car in Sport+), it puts the traction back on fully (thereby turning off DSC and placing back in Sport mode). It must be a safety feature so you don't inadvertently turn it all off. To turn the traction fully off, you need to hold the DSC off button in any drive mode (except Eco-Pro) for a couple of seconds, then it'll tell you everything is off.
Most LSD-like setting is called 'Birds'
Alternatively, I think the halfway house DTC setting is meant to mimic an LSD, but I don't think it's that effective as it'll still spin up an inside rear wheel.
HTH
Thanks. So just pressing DSC off when in Sport+ takes you the wrong way- you have to press and hold it. This is then as off as everything can be.When you subsequently hit the DSC off button again (remember, you've already effectively selected it once by putting your car in Sport+), it puts the traction back on fully (thereby turning off DSC and placing back in Sport mode). It must be a safety feature so you don't inadvertently turn it all off. To turn the traction fully off, you need to hold the DSC off button in any drive mode (except Eco-Pro) for a couple of seconds, then it'll tell you everything is off.
Most LSD-like setting is called 'Birds'
Alternatively, I think the halfway house DTC setting is meant to mimic an LSD, but I don't think it's that effective as it'll still spin up an inside rear wheel.
HTH
Leins said:
and used Alpina as the producer of bespoke AMG-rivalling GT coupes and saloons. However these two "departments", for want of a much better word, now almost seem to be competing for the same market
And the latest versions which are using almost identical engines blurs this even more. Alpina seem to be much more road/GT biased and if my experience of the latest B3 Bi-Turbo is anything to go by, it's a tremendous road car.However whilst I'd love an Alpina, their add-ons and styling are bit more controversial and they also come with a high financial impact - they often share the similar high price of an M car, yet suffer similar depreciation to the (normally heavily discounted) car they're based on. Looking at the used market, whenever there's a similar M and Alpina, the M is always worth more. Unless you're keeping it forever, it's hard to make a case for an Alpina over the equivalent M version.
shim said:
M 135i is still not an M car..............100% not an M car. It doesn't even know where Garching is.
As far as I can see nobody has been daft enough to claim that it is. The question is do threads about it go here or in the general BMW bit. I couldn't give a f
k. Seems some people do. General Zod said:
Thanks. So just pressing DSC off when in Sport+ takes you the wrong way- you have to press and hold it. This is then as off as everything can be.
God, what a horrendously written post by me earlier. I blame the device. Anyway, I've edited it so it makes sense but yes, you're correct.
cs1874 said:
This whole type of thread boils my blood….nothing but a load of pompous, pretentious, macho posturing, my M is more M than you're M so it shouldn't be allowed in this section crap!!
Grow up FFS.
And no, I don't have an M135i….I have an E92 M3.
RANT OVER…..for now anyway.
Sorry I started this thread now... Grow up FFS.
And no, I don't have an M135i….I have an E92 M3.
RANT OVER…..for now anyway.
I did put a
on my original post, and it was after a couple of sherbets.Anyway, I think we all agree that the M135i isn't an M car, but that it probably belongs in this area of the forums.
As you were.
Palmball said:
And the latest versions which are using almost identical engines blurs this even more. Alpina seem to be much more road/GT biased and if my experience of the latest B3 Bi-Turbo is anything to go by, it's a tremendous road car.
However whilst I'd love an Alpina, their add-ons and styling are bit more controversial and they also come with a high financial impact - they often share the similar high price of an M car, yet suffer similar depreciation to the (normally heavily discounted) car they're based on. Looking at the used market, whenever there's a similar M and Alpina, the M is always worth more. Unless you're keeping it forever, it's hard to make a case for an Alpina over the equivalent M version.
Going a bit more O/T here, but certain Alpinas are actually worth a lot more than their //M equivalents e.g. E36 B8, E34 B10 Bi-Turbo, E30 B6S. However, they do suffer more from depreciation when new these days, and a lot of that seems to stem from an opinion that they are somehow inferior to the Motorsport division carsHowever whilst I'd love an Alpina, their add-ons and styling are bit more controversial and they also come with a high financial impact - they often share the similar high price of an M car, yet suffer similar depreciation to the (normally heavily discounted) car they're based on. Looking at the used market, whenever there's a similar M and Alpina, the M is always worth more. Unless you're keeping it forever, it's hard to make a case for an Alpina over the equivalent M version.
I'd argue that some of the finest road cars built with a BMW badge were Alpinas. Probably not a discussion to be had in this section though!
M135i is one of the new range of "M Performance" vehicles (the others being the M550d, X5 & X6 M50d) that occupy a sub brand between the trim only "M Sport" brand and full "Motorsport" cars. In other words they are to BMW approximately what "S" is within Audi, relative to "S Line" (trim only) and "RS" (fully developed, standalone models).
Let's remember that E30 M3 was not the genesis nor the template for what an M car is. It's actually closer to being an exception, being the only roadgoing M car to be a result of racing homologation rules.
The first Motorsport developed car was ... the E12 M535i. Then came the E28 version, which (other than the bespoke M1) became the first true M car in the general sense, the E28 M5, with a specific Motorsport engine derived from the M88 racing engine, itself derived from the venerable M30.
The only M engines I can think of that do not owe their basic form to a standard series engine are the E6x models' S85 V10 and the E9x M3's S65 V8. The rest have come from developing the standard six, eight and in one case twelve cylinder engines.
There are a few anomalies - would any here argue that the E24 M635CSi is not an M car? It was marketed in Europe as such, but was as much an M as its contemporary M3 and M5. It was also sold as an M6 in North America.
M Cars haven't been hand built in Garching since the E34 M5 went out of production in 1995. Since then, M5s have made their way down the standard 5 Series production line at Dingolfing. E36/46/9x M3s were built at Regensburg with the rest of the Threes and other models and the Z3 & Z4 Ms in Spartanburg, USA.
So as it's sits between standard series BMWs and Motorsport vehicles according to BMW's own internal logic, marketing strategy and comparable with past models, it should be able to be discussed in either venue without upsetting anyone. Unless M owners are a lot more precious than I've ever known them to be before. They're not just trim levels, there are hardware changes with M division input and development and exist as specific models.
Let's remember that E30 M3 was not the genesis nor the template for what an M car is. It's actually closer to being an exception, being the only roadgoing M car to be a result of racing homologation rules.
The first Motorsport developed car was ... the E12 M535i. Then came the E28 version, which (other than the bespoke M1) became the first true M car in the general sense, the E28 M5, with a specific Motorsport engine derived from the M88 racing engine, itself derived from the venerable M30.
The only M engines I can think of that do not owe their basic form to a standard series engine are the E6x models' S85 V10 and the E9x M3's S65 V8. The rest have come from developing the standard six, eight and in one case twelve cylinder engines.
There are a few anomalies - would any here argue that the E24 M635CSi is not an M car? It was marketed in Europe as such, but was as much an M as its contemporary M3 and M5. It was also sold as an M6 in North America.
M Cars haven't been hand built in Garching since the E34 M5 went out of production in 1995. Since then, M5s have made their way down the standard 5 Series production line at Dingolfing. E36/46/9x M3s were built at Regensburg with the rest of the Threes and other models and the Z3 & Z4 Ms in Spartanburg, USA.
So as it's sits between standard series BMWs and Motorsport vehicles according to BMW's own internal logic, marketing strategy and comparable with past models, it should be able to be discussed in either venue without upsetting anyone. Unless M owners are a lot more precious than I've ever known them to be before. They're not just trim levels, there are hardware changes with M division input and development and exist as specific models.
General Zod said:
shim said:
M 135i is still not an M car..............100% not an M car. It doesn't even know where Garching is.
As far as I can see nobody has been daft enough to claim that it is. The question is do threads about it go here or in the general BMW bit. I couldn't give a fk. Seems some people do. ker started these threads in M Power section.Zwolf said:
In other words they are to BMW approximately what "S" is within Audi, relative to "S Line" (trim only) and "RS" (fully developed, standalone models).
I don't want to sound pedantic, but always presumed that BMW's equivalent to S models were the 335i, 550i etc. I would sit the 'M Performance' sub brand higher than 'S' especially given that the M135i has been compared to the RS3 and A45.shim said:
Well I guess it is a BMW conceived, designed, developed by M Division BMW out of Garching?
Ahem…"M Cars haven't been hand built in Garching since the E34 M5 went out of production in 1995. "….and
"So as it's sits between standard series BMWs and Motorsport vehicles according to BMW's own internal logic, marketing strategy and comparable with past models, it should be able to be discussed in either venue without upsetting anyone. Unless M owners are a lot more precious than I've ever known them to be before. They're not just trim levels, there are hardware changes with M division input and development and exist as specific models. "
Mmmmm….sounds pretty much like the M135i to me….BMW conceived, designed, developed by M Division BMW….your description, not mine.
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