E39 or E60 M5; which is more iconic?
Discussion
davewhitt said:
gearbox gearbox gearbox why do people have to say that, have you driven one no, have you taken the time to learn how to drive one no, manual or auto its a great box.
I have spent quite a lot of time driving my e39, which whilst it has a not great service history is still working at 184,000 miles. Since I got it at 160k it has been to the Ring, Spa and done some very spirited driving around Europe. It hasn't stopped me getting anywhere.I have also spent quite a lot of time in e60 M5s and more recently an e63 M6 when they have been being driven the way they were intended. I also drove the M6 all be it quite briefly.
e60 M5 had a massive bill for gearbox issues the day after it was traded in, it was owned since new by the first owner and that was not the only thing that went wrong.
e63 M6 had an instant clutch and flywheel failure on the way to LeMans this year with less than 35k on the clock, we were only an hour into France at the time. The same car has also just stopped my friend from going on his next eurotrip afer the £2.5k bill for the new clutch and flywheel by having a DTC / Throttle red cog. Thankfully this time it happened before he'd really left home and was able to get a loaner M3 from the dealer.
For that reason I'd guess that the US spec Manual e60 may be a future classic but for me a real M car shouldn't be seen as 'fragile'.
These are not uncommon stories, I also watched some very disappointed people head home from VMax when they're M5s stopped wanting to play. I like the gearbox even from the short time I drove it however they are just too fragile from what I've witnessed / heard so this isn't from someone that's never driven or experienced how good the cars can be.
I've been fortunate enough to own a couple of E39 M5s and also an E60 M5.
Before I owned the E60, I thought that the E39 was the icon. I loved the V8 and the manual 'box and the way that the E39 devoured Europe in comfort and then threw itself round the 'Ring like a thing possessed. BMW just hit the sweet spot with the E39. Look up the definitive saloon car in Google and it should have a pic of an E39 M5. Case closed?
I thought so, but having lived with an E60, it's just much more of an event. Let's get SMG out of the way first. Yes, it's a bit fragile. Yes, it can be clunky and recalcitrant. Would an E60 be better with a 6-spd manual? Journalists in the U.S would say no, having driven both back to back. Incredibly, it appears that the SMG3 'box suits the V10 better than the manual. I'd still love to try a manual to make sure though.
The V10 is an amazing engine. Sure, it likes a drink, but so what. It's a masterpiece. The ride and handling on the E60 is firmer than the E39. The body control is tighter and the brakes significantly better. I prefer the appearance of the E39, but the E60 is brutish in a way that the E39 isn't. Both are subtle enough to sneak under most radar undetected. Iron fists in velvet gloves.
Given the choice, I'd have another E60 before I had another E39. The E60 just moved the game on in my experience.
Before I owned the E60, I thought that the E39 was the icon. I loved the V8 and the manual 'box and the way that the E39 devoured Europe in comfort and then threw itself round the 'Ring like a thing possessed. BMW just hit the sweet spot with the E39. Look up the definitive saloon car in Google and it should have a pic of an E39 M5. Case closed?
I thought so, but having lived with an E60, it's just much more of an event. Let's get SMG out of the way first. Yes, it's a bit fragile. Yes, it can be clunky and recalcitrant. Would an E60 be better with a 6-spd manual? Journalists in the U.S would say no, having driven both back to back. Incredibly, it appears that the SMG3 'box suits the V10 better than the manual. I'd still love to try a manual to make sure though.
The V10 is an amazing engine. Sure, it likes a drink, but so what. It's a masterpiece. The ride and handling on the E60 is firmer than the E39. The body control is tighter and the brakes significantly better. I prefer the appearance of the E39, but the E60 is brutish in a way that the E39 isn't. Both are subtle enough to sneak under most radar undetected. Iron fists in velvet gloves.
Given the choice, I'd have another E60 before I had another E39. The E60 just moved the game on in my experience.
Had an E61 M5 for 2yrs and almost 20k miles - you have read my ramblings about visiting the Ring and North Wales on here, you have also seen the pics of the car at full chat exiting Adenauer Forst with the baby Recaro at the back. Also got to drive my best man's Nowack 500 - an extensively reworked E39 which despite the name made only 475bhp on Sal's (Evolve) dyno.
The E39 is nice, it is very nice. It is actually amazing, especially in Nowack trim - Sir Alfred MacAlpine who was the first owner - purportedly threw in excess of EUR60,000 at the car as soon as he acquired it - custom Bilsteins, custom H&R ARBs, AP-racing 6-pot fronts and 4-pot rears, short shift, custom clutch kit and of course the re-worked engine - custom headers, pistons, ported heads, ported ITBs, custom CF trumpets and a custom map. This is all the car you would ever want. In theory...
...Because the E60/1 is just better in every respect. To start - the engine is a masterpiece without an analogue in the normal BMW line up. While the S62 is a variation, albeit a good one, on the M62. The gearbox - yes, it is clonky if you are a twonk with it. But there is no way on God's Earth anyone can replicate the lightning fast shifts in S6 mode or the perfectly matched downshifts with throttle blips from 6th to 3d on the approach into Aremberg on the somewhat heavy E39 box. The STEERING FEEL (yes, it is in capitals on purpose), which the E60/1 possesses by the bucketload. Hardly surprising - it has a proper rack and not a box taken off the cooking 540i. What about the brakes - they actually work, while on the E39 are marginal at best. The EDC - it also works - in London I had a soft (relatively speaking) rep mobile, while in N Wales I had almost a super car with room to sit five at the touch of a button. The E39's set up is great, but its conventional dampers are not in the same league as the EDC.
The list can go on and on...
Overall, for me, the E39 is just too good at everything, without being brilliant at anything, while the E60/1 may have some pretty big flaws (small tank, thirst for fuel/oil and somewhat fragile clutches), but it is absolutely brilliant at so many other things that it is a clear winner for when people go misty eyed 20 years down the line.
The E39 is nice, it is very nice. It is actually amazing, especially in Nowack trim - Sir Alfred MacAlpine who was the first owner - purportedly threw in excess of EUR60,000 at the car as soon as he acquired it - custom Bilsteins, custom H&R ARBs, AP-racing 6-pot fronts and 4-pot rears, short shift, custom clutch kit and of course the re-worked engine - custom headers, pistons, ported heads, ported ITBs, custom CF trumpets and a custom map. This is all the car you would ever want. In theory...
...Because the E60/1 is just better in every respect. To start - the engine is a masterpiece without an analogue in the normal BMW line up. While the S62 is a variation, albeit a good one, on the M62. The gearbox - yes, it is clonky if you are a twonk with it. But there is no way on God's Earth anyone can replicate the lightning fast shifts in S6 mode or the perfectly matched downshifts with throttle blips from 6th to 3d on the approach into Aremberg on the somewhat heavy E39 box. The STEERING FEEL (yes, it is in capitals on purpose), which the E60/1 possesses by the bucketload. Hardly surprising - it has a proper rack and not a box taken off the cooking 540i. What about the brakes - they actually work, while on the E39 are marginal at best. The EDC - it also works - in London I had a soft (relatively speaking) rep mobile, while in N Wales I had almost a super car with room to sit five at the touch of a button. The E39's set up is great, but its conventional dampers are not in the same league as the EDC.
The list can go on and on...
Overall, for me, the E39 is just too good at everything, without being brilliant at anything, while the E60/1 may have some pretty big flaws (small tank, thirst for fuel/oil and somewhat fragile clutches), but it is absolutely brilliant at so many other things that it is a clear winner for when people go misty eyed 20 years down the line.
The e39 is more iconic, IMHO - it was just the complete m5 package: power, sound, good handling, looks, great manual g/box, comfort, reliability. Although it had the more memorable engine, the e60 just couldn't tick all of the boxes and will probably just be remembered as the bonkers, rather than benchmark m5.
The E60/E61 M5 seems to take a kicking all the time. I've had two, both did not need clutches until 77k miles approx and other than servicing and a blocked drain hole which fried the ECU were perfect. I think 77k miles for a clutch in a 500bhp car is fantastic, even 35k or so is great when you consider most Ferrari's and Lambo's with the same power output go through a clutch in 15k miles in a lot of cases!
The E60 is an awesome car and this is coming from someone who owned 4 E39 M5's. The E39 was maybe a bit easier to slide and the handling was more organic but the E60 with the power, looks handling is the real deal. Unfortunately, on the internet you only hear the bad news, i'm sure lots of people have had clutches on the E60 M5 that have done big miles with no issues. In the cases where clutches have failed, it's usually with a new owner after a previous owner has cained it before trade in or the new owner giving it the beans when they first collect it. I never red line mine in first, i have a gradual build up of speed from the lights rather than using launch control etc.
Epic cars, they need a bit more good news rather than the bad news they seem to attract!
The E60 is an awesome car and this is coming from someone who owned 4 E39 M5's. The E39 was maybe a bit easier to slide and the handling was more organic but the E60 with the power, looks handling is the real deal. Unfortunately, on the internet you only hear the bad news, i'm sure lots of people have had clutches on the E60 M5 that have done big miles with no issues. In the cases where clutches have failed, it's usually with a new owner after a previous owner has cained it before trade in or the new owner giving it the beans when they first collect it. I never red line mine in first, i have a gradual build up of speed from the lights rather than using launch control etc.
Epic cars, they need a bit more good news rather than the bad news they seem to attract!
I think E39 will end up being more iconic. And have been convinced enough to put my money there too.
I test drove an Approved-Used E60 about 4 years ago. Took it out 3 times in the end, really wanting to love it, but it just didn't excite in any kind of normal driving. I had no big issues with the gearbox and am pleased to see the car get some love in this thread, but for me it was too clinical.
Finally decided to try an E39 at the start of the year, and ended up test-driving for 45 minutes, all the while thinking I love everything about it for normal driving. The feel/character of the car for general usage was much more alive, the performance and ability more accessible and rewarding.
Being much more common than E28/E34, neither may become massively valuable, but I think as the last NA/RWD/full-manual BMW the E39 has a chance of appreciating a bit. The E60 has the top end licked, but I think the electronics and other factors will mean in 10+ years time it will be cheaper and less iconic than the E39.
I test drove an Approved-Used E60 about 4 years ago. Took it out 3 times in the end, really wanting to love it, but it just didn't excite in any kind of normal driving. I had no big issues with the gearbox and am pleased to see the car get some love in this thread, but for me it was too clinical.
Finally decided to try an E39 at the start of the year, and ended up test-driving for 45 minutes, all the while thinking I love everything about it for normal driving. The feel/character of the car for general usage was much more alive, the performance and ability more accessible and rewarding.
Being much more common than E28/E34, neither may become massively valuable, but I think as the last NA/RWD/full-manual BMW the E39 has a chance of appreciating a bit. The E60 has the top end licked, but I think the electronics and other factors will mean in 10+ years time it will be cheaper and less iconic than the E39.
Edited by Jamiae on Monday 1st September 19:30
Cheburator mk2 said:
Had an E61 M5 for 2yrs and almost 20k miles - you have read my ramblings about visiting the Ring and North Wales on here, you have also seen the pics of the car at full chat exiting Adenauer Forst with the baby Recaro at the back. Also got to drive my best man's Nowack 500 - an extensively reworked E39 which despite the name made only 475bhp on Sal's (Evolve) dyno.
The E39 is nice, it is very nice. It is actually amazing, especially in Nowack trim - Sir Alfred MacAlpine who was the first owner - purportedly threw in excess of EUR60,000 at the car as soon as he acquired it - custom Bilsteins, custom H&R ARBs, AP-racing 6-pot fronts and 4-pot rears, short shift, custom clutch kit and of course the re-worked engine - custom headers, pistons, ported heads, ported ITBs, custom CF trumpets and a custom map. This is all the car you would ever want. In theory...
...Because the E60/1 is just better in every respect. To start - the engine is a masterpiece without an analogue in the normal BMW line up. While the S62 is a variation, albeit a good one, on the M62. The gearbox - yes, it is clonky if you are a twonk with it. But there is no way on God's Earth anyone can replicate the lightning fast shifts in S6 mode or the perfectly matched downshifts with throttle blips from 6th to 3d on the approach into Aremberg on the somewhat heavy E39 box. The STEERING FEEL (yes, it is in capitals on purpose), which the E60/1 possesses by the bucketload. Hardly surprising - it has a proper rack and not a box taken off the cooking 540i. What about the brakes - they actually work, while on the E39 are marginal at best. The EDC - it also works - in London I had a soft (relatively speaking) rep mobile, while in N Wales I had almost a super car with room to sit five at the touch of a button. The E39's set up is great, but its conventional dampers are not in the same league as the EDC.
The list can go on and on...
Overall, for me, the E39 is just too good at everything, without being brilliant at anything, while the E60/1 may have some pretty big flaws (small tank, thirst for fuel/oil and somewhat fragile clutches), but it is absolutely brilliant at so many other things that it is a clear winner for when people go misty eyed 20 years down the line.
Reading this is wanting to make me love my M6......must resist....after all the headache and grief.....resist....resist!!!The E39 is nice, it is very nice. It is actually amazing, especially in Nowack trim - Sir Alfred MacAlpine who was the first owner - purportedly threw in excess of EUR60,000 at the car as soon as he acquired it - custom Bilsteins, custom H&R ARBs, AP-racing 6-pot fronts and 4-pot rears, short shift, custom clutch kit and of course the re-worked engine - custom headers, pistons, ported heads, ported ITBs, custom CF trumpets and a custom map. This is all the car you would ever want. In theory...
...Because the E60/1 is just better in every respect. To start - the engine is a masterpiece without an analogue in the normal BMW line up. While the S62 is a variation, albeit a good one, on the M62. The gearbox - yes, it is clonky if you are a twonk with it. But there is no way on God's Earth anyone can replicate the lightning fast shifts in S6 mode or the perfectly matched downshifts with throttle blips from 6th to 3d on the approach into Aremberg on the somewhat heavy E39 box. The STEERING FEEL (yes, it is in capitals on purpose), which the E60/1 possesses by the bucketload. Hardly surprising - it has a proper rack and not a box taken off the cooking 540i. What about the brakes - they actually work, while on the E39 are marginal at best. The EDC - it also works - in London I had a soft (relatively speaking) rep mobile, while in N Wales I had almost a super car with room to sit five at the touch of a button. The E39's set up is great, but its conventional dampers are not in the same league as the EDC.
The list can go on and on...
Overall, for me, the E39 is just too good at everything, without being brilliant at anything, while the E60/1 may have some pretty big flaws (small tank, thirst for fuel/oil and somewhat fragile clutches), but it is absolutely brilliant at so many other things that it is a clear winner for when people go misty eyed 20 years down the line.
How does the manual E60 M5 fit into this debate? Think Stateside only (including Canada?) - think around 1000 made, this puts the gearbox argument to bed and as it's not a leggy turbo like the F10 (which has suffered in reviews as a manual because the dual clutch gearbox does a good job at hiding the lag), as long as it's a decent gearbox, perhaps this is the hidden gem...?
How difficult would a conversion be using off the shelf parts!? Surely cheaper than the Aston Vanquish conversion!
How difficult would a conversion be using off the shelf parts!? Surely cheaper than the Aston Vanquish conversion!
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