M4 Shock

[ZX10R NIN]

twingf said:

Yes agreed the Golf would be as quick as the M4 or M5 on roads most of the time, would be left behind on the track against either. Golf R is a good nippy little hatchback.

Most modern diesels can keep up with an M3/4 in real world road conditions but when the road opens up & if the drivers feeling like it then they'll be left behind by true performance saloons

[twingf]

ZX10R NIN said:

Most modern diesels can keep up with an M3/4 in real world road conditions but when the road opens up & if the drivers feeling like it then they'll be left behind by true performance saloons

Very true.

[JMBMWM5]

CheesyFootballs said:

And not forgetting those that utterly rely on the gospel truth of a journos review.

Yep Journo bks most of the time.

[gaz1234]

Surely the old v8 is as fast?

[Schermerhorn]

I just raced and beat a Golf R driven by a very good driver. Accelartion, braking and speed carried into, through and out of damp corners and my M6 had the beating of him by a good %.

They are good cars but if my 8 year old M6 can beat THE hot hatch of the moment I have no doubt the new M3/M4 would smash it and possibly beat me by a good margin too.

Around town though and in real world driving the Golf may get the nod but in terms of performance the Golf can fuggedaboutit.

[ZX10R NIN]

Schermerhorn said:

I just raced and beat a Golf R driven by a very good driver. Accelartion, braking and speed carried into, through and out of damp corners and my M6 had the beating of him by a good %.

They are good cars but if my 8 year old M6 can beat THE hot hatch of the moment I have no doubt the new M3/M4 would smash it and possibly beat me by a good margin too.

Around town though and in real world driving the Golf may get the nod but in terms of performance the Golf can fuggedaboutit.

Seeing as we're going off topic lets add some facts to the debate.

Lets get it into perspective Golf R good car 0-60 4.9 296bhp 280ft/lb 1495kg(claimed) £31300 before options
the M3/M4 again a good car 0-60 4.1 425bhp 404ft/lb 1595kg(claimed) £56200 before options
both are topping out at 155mph so there's nothing to compare there.
The D3 works out somewhere between the two 0-60 4.6 350bhp 516ft/lb 1620kgs(claimed) £50800 before you get anything worth talking about on it.

So real world the Golf R loses to the D3 which loses out to the M3 & now all the planets align

on open A roads the golf will be left behind as good a car as it is, the same for an M4 if you compared it to a 911 turbo it'll lose.

Edited by ZX10R NIN on Saturday 3rd January 19:16

[shim]

ZX10R NIN said:

Schermerhorn said:

I just raced and beat a Golf R driven by a very good driver. Accelartion, braking and speed carried into, through and out of damp corners and my M6 had the beating of him by a good %.

They are good cars but if my 8 year old M6 can beat THE hot hatch of the moment I have no doubt the new M3/M4 would smash it and possibly beat me by a good margin too.

Around town though and in real world driving the Golf may get the nod but in terms of performance the Golf can fuggedaboutit.

Seeing as we're going off topic lets add some facts to the debate.

Lets get it into perspective Golf R good car 0-60 4.9 296bhp 280ft/lb 1495kg(claimed) £31300 before options
the M3/M4 again a good car 0-60 4.1 425bhp 404ft/lb 1595kg(claimed) £56200 before options
both are topping out at 155mph so there's nothing to compare there.
The D3 works out somewhere between the two 0-60 4.6 350bhp 516ft/lb 1620kgs(claimed) £50800 before you get anything worth talking about on it.

So real world the Golf R loses to the D3 which loses out to the M3 & now all the planets align

on open A roads the golf will be left behind as good a car as it is, the same for an M4 if you compared it to a 911 turbo it'll lose.

Edited by ZX10R NIN on Saturday 3rd January 19:16

And at the Ring they are both still lagging behind the CSL.

[Amirhussain]

Driver101 said:

twingf said:

Timbergiant said:

I love they way everyone seems compelled to tell the world how disappointed with a new car they are, seems to be a BMW M thing in particular.

Agree!

It's uncanny how often people choose to do it.

Even on the BMW forums I keep reading that the new model of their car isn't as good looking, isn't as nice to drive or as fast. Countless years down the line when the newer version of their car has depreciated enough for them to afford it, suddenly the earlier comments have disappeared and this is the best car in the world.

Happens with almost every new car, particularly BMWs. I remember when the E9X M3 came out, people complaining that the M3 had lost its mojo, and that the V8 lacked torque etc. Even the 1M. After a few years or when the replacement model comes out, everyone raves about the old model.

I've seen a few M4s, in Phoeneix Yellow. I think they look awesome. Big fan of the aggressive front end.

The F10 M5 looks the business. One of the things I like most about it, is the subtlety. Not saying its a full on sleeper. E.g. if I see an E60 M5, I just know straight away that it's an M5, with the F10, you have to give it a good look before I realise it's an M5. I'm sure that's one of the things people like about the E39 M5?

[gaz1234]

shim said:

And at the Ring they are both still lagging behind the CSL.

[cerb4.5lee]

Amirhussain said:

Driver101 said:

twingf said:

Timbergiant said:

I love they way everyone seems compelled to tell the world how disappointed with a new car they are, seems to be a BMW M thing in particular.

Agree!

It's uncanny how often people choose to do it.

Even on the BMW forums I keep reading that the new model of their car isn't as good looking, isn't as nice to drive or as fast. Countless years down the line when the newer version of their car has depreciated enough for them to afford it, suddenly the earlier comments have disappeared and this is the best car in the world.

I remember when the E9X M3 came out, people complaining that the M3 had lost its mojo, and that the V8 lacked torque etc.

It had and it did though! has anyone ever actually considered that the modern M car is overrated in the first place though! it took me a while to afford a E92 M3 and I wish I hadn't bothered wasting my money...they say you should never meet a hero and the E92 M3 is a prime example.

Plenty love it though before I get shot down as usual!!

[JMBMWM5]

gaz1234 said:

[ZX10R NIN]

shim said:

And at the Ring they are both still lagging behind the CSL.

You're not kidding, this is thing about progress when BMW & every other car maker they used to build a 3/5 series & say to the public here it is. If you wanted a fast small saloon with a lot of power you got the M3 wanted more torque you got the M5 the engineers had the biggest say, now it's focus groups that have the greater say

The reason I'd say the E9x feels better is because the newer one is more of a jack of all trades master of none. The E92 is a what you see is what you get also a great engine note, is it as focused as the E46 no but still a great steer.

All these modes they put in cars now most of them are pointless there will be one setting where the car is at it's optimum set up & if you're buying a performance car this is the one it should come out of the factory with live with it, you bought an M3 it's supposed to be stiff.

All that happens when you soften the dampers is that the rest of the suspension works harder to control the mass.


I still have the new M3 it's still not impressing I took it to Silverstone to have some exhaust work done on it, it sounds better but still not a great engine note especially once you turn the artificial noise off. I think the biggest problem I have with it is that at low speeds the other cars such as the C63 Granturismo CLK63 have that bit of drama & noise at low speeds (40mph)that makes you smile/feel good.

The M3 doesn't do this whilst it's a good drive the & fast you just need to be to far on the wrong side of the law to get those smiley moments, so in my opinion it's a good car not a great one & it's also a bit to ordinary inside, if I had to get a BMW I'd get the M5 it's just a much better car.

Edited by ZX10R NIN on Sunday 4th January 19:39

[Jazzer]

Afternoon chaps, my Golf R comment has caused a bit of a stir in here, but you seem to be barking up the wrong tree and putting words into my mouth.

The M4 would hammer an R most of the time, we can safely agree on this I think.

Down a bumpy back road with tight corners/dips/cambers, the R would be quicker than the M4, with the difference being significantly greater in the wet.....try the R to see what I mean, very few cars would be quicker in such circumstances.

I would honestly much rather have an R as an everyday car than the M4.

[Driver101]

Jazzer said:

Afternoon chaps, my Golf R comment has caused a bit of a stir in here, but you seem to be barking up the wrong tree and putting words into my mouth.

The M4 would hammer an R most of the time, we can safely agree on this I think.

Down a bumpy back road with tight corners/dips/cambers, the R would be quicker than the M4, with the difference being significantly greater in the wet.....try the R to see what I mean, very few cars would be quicker in such circumstances.

I would honestly much rather have an R as an everyday car than the M4.

I don't think it cause much of a stir at all. I doubt many people would take you seriously, unless they owned an R and biased.

Looks as if you're back to stir it again when the point was already gone.

In your own words, "what was this thread about again"?

Edited by Driver101 on Sunday 4th January 16:19

[twingf]

Good for you Jazzer, I'd consider one if I was after a hatchback.

[Fezzaman]

Let's be honest this is just history repeating itself over and over and over again. There's one debate going on here over how the newer car isn't as great as the old one - I definitely remember the first E9x M3 reviews and people saying how there's no massive waiting list like there was for the E46 (admittedly recession played its part), they're going to be worth 20k in 3 years time etc etc etc. The E9x lifecyle is over and 20k now only gets you bottom of the barrel stuff.

The other debate is the bang for buck argument and optimisation for any given individual given the marginal gain for marginal cost. I wasn't particularly aware of the Golf R fanboy phenomena but I'm guessing it's akin to the M135i brigade a couple years earlier. The cheaper the car, the greater the accessibility and bigger the voice championing their cause. I bet Fiesta ST boys (and they will be boys, not men won't they? ) will say the same about the Golf R that the ST's all the everyday proposition you need... As for the chap moving from a 997 GTS to an M4 - have you considered that perhaps he didn't buy the 997gts for the same reasons that are championed by their fanclub/journos? And as such given those reasons the M4 was a better fit FOR THEM? If someone is in the position to have both an M5 and a Golf R which address different perfomance/usability spectrums then great, but if you could only have 1 surely the M3/4 is in with a shout as a happy balance?

Broadly speaking the further up the chain you go the more civilised these forums (usually) seem to get, I remember m3forum in the E46 days and every guy was the big swinging d!ck being all defensive when some upstart talks up his 350Z or whatever, meanwhile M5board would be vastly calmer. Problem comes when the M3 crowd bait the M5 crowd or vice versa and you just have to crack out the popcorn and enjoy the show

[twingf]

Fezzaman said:

Let's be honest this is just history repeating itself over and over and over again. There's one debate going on here over how the newer car isn't as great as the old one - I definitely remember the first E9x M3 reviews and people saying how there's no massive waiting list like there was for the E46 (admittedly recession played its part), they're going to be worth 20k in 3 years time etc etc etc. The E9x lifecyle is over and 20k now only gets you bottom of the barrel stuff.

The other debate is the bang for buck argument and optimisation for any given individual given the marginal gain for marginal cost. I wasn't particularly aware of the Golf R fanboy phenomena but I'm guessing it's akin to the M135i brigade a couple years earlier. The cheaper the car, the greater the accessibility and bigger the voice championing their cause. I bet Fiesta ST boys (and they will be boys, not men won't they? ) will say the same about the Golf R that the ST's all the everyday proposition you need... As for the chap moving from a 997 GTS to an M4 - have you considered that perhaps he didn't buy the 997gts for the same reasons that are championed by their fanclub/journos? And as such given those reasons the M4 was a better fit FOR THEM? If someone is in the position to have both an M5 and a Golf R which address different perfomance/usability spectrums then great, but if you could only have 1 surely the M3/4 is in with a shout as a happy balance?

Broadly speaking the further up the chain you go the more civilised these forums (usually) seem to get, I remember m3forum in the E46 days and every guy was the big swinging d!ck being all defensive when some upstart talks up his 350Z or whatever, meanwhile M5board would be vastly calmer. Problem comes when the M3 crowd bait the M5 crowd or vice versa and you just have to crack out the popcorn and enjoy the show

Sensible words. I've been surprised by the reaction here to the M3/M4 but as you say, looks like history repeating itself. Owners of older M cars getting all agitated !

I actually changed from 911 gts4 to M4 because it's cheaper, more practical and better inside for the similar performance (on my daily commute at least which is what is relevant!).

[Jazzer]

Driver101 said:

I don't think it cause much of a stir at all. I doubt many people would take you seriously, unless they owned an R and biased.

Looks as if you're back to stir it again when the point was already gone.

In your own words, "what was this thread about again"?

Edited by Driver101 on Sunday 4th January 16:19

I appear to have stirred you up.

[Driver101]

In recent years Audi have grown in stature and BMW have lost their appeal to many.

You read the BMW forums and they all seem to be at each other's throats telling each other they bought a 335d/i rather than an M3 as it's a better real world car. People buy the old E46 M3 as they say it's better than the 335i and the d is just another diesel.

Then guys move on from E46 M3s and E92 335i/d to E92 M3s and M135is, then suddenly they are the best cars, they no longer think the 335d was that good a car compared to a petrol engine and the E46 M3 is for chavs these days. The 335i no longer can be compared to the E92 M3 either, not even when tuned.

These new E92 M3 owners mow dislike the new M3 as a 6 cylinder engine is not as good as an 8 cylinder, and a 6 cylinder engine has no place in a M3. They completely forget the fact that the M3 is possibly more famous for 6 cylinder engines and only ever had one V8.

You then read the classified section on the BMW forums and there is a whole host of threads with people telling each other their cars aren't worth that much.

The BMW sites don't really do much to attract people to the brand.




Log on to the Audi sites and it is completely different.

Question to new member "What Audi do you have"?
New member, "I'm not sure what model it is. It is red, has 4 doors and a diesel engine. I think it is 2.0l".
Rest of forum "Great car, you'll love it. We all have cars like yours".

They just don't seem to have the competitive edge the BMW sites do and they all promote their cars and don't seem too concerned on specifics like BMW sites.



Log on to the Golf R fourm, their aw the fastist motors gone. Theyve jist ripped a lambo doon the high streat. The 4 wheel drive and turbo kicked in and a won the race between the Asda and McDonald's car park.


They'll all join in and agree it's the best car in the world, then worry that their £200 per month lease payment comes out the bank tomorrow and doesn't leave them £5 for petrol.



Then people don't quite figure why BMWs now tend to suffer higher depreciation when even the owners talk the brand down, often without valid reason.

Edited by Driver101 on Sunday 4th January 17:02

[CheesyFootballs]

This is my first venture into M territory ( tried a V8 version whilst I had my 911 turbo and found it somewhat lacking) having had a few Porsche's, and I can't believe how bhy the M forums (not just PH) can be.

I thought the Porsche ones could be bad...