Discussion
CheesyFootballs said:
This is my first venture into M territory ( tried a V8 version whilst I had my 911 turbo and found it somewhat lacking) having had a few Porsche's, and I can't believe how b
hy the M forums (not just PH) can be.
I thought the Porsche ones could be bad...
Shocking isn't it - some real charmers on here! hy the M forums (not just PH) can be.I thought the Porsche ones could be bad...
Been nosing around a yellow M4 at my local dealer whilst my E61 has been in.
Looks stunning in the flesh, and the seats look/feel awesome!
I'm sure the car is very good in its own right even though it has a different setup to what we have been a custom to.
Not sure about the Golf R comments, I'm sure it's great but at the end of the day, it's just a golf.
The M range will always feel that but more special and a rarer sight on the road.
Naturally for me if I could afford either, I would own the M4. But for now I will stick with my dated E61 M5.
Looks stunning in the flesh, and the seats look/feel awesome!
I'm sure the car is very good in its own right even though it has a different setup to what we have been a custom to.
Not sure about the Golf R comments, I'm sure it's great but at the end of the day, it's just a golf.
The M range will always feel that but more special and a rarer sight on the road.
Naturally for me if I could afford either, I would own the M4. But for now I will stick with my dated E61 M5.
ant123456 said:
Been nosing around a yellow M4 at my local dealer whilst my E61 has been in.
Looks stunning in the flesh, and the seats look/feel awesome!
I'm sure the car is very good in its own right even though it has a different setup to what we have been a custom to.
Not sure about the Golf R comments, I'm sure it's great but at the end of the day, it's just a golf.
The M range will always feel that but more special and a rarer sight on the road.
Naturally for me if I could afford either, I would own the M4. But for now I will stick with my dated E61 M5.
Loving my yellow M4 at the moment - it's definitely a great showroom colour! Agree about the seats - the best in any car I've had.Looks stunning in the flesh, and the seats look/feel awesome!
I'm sure the car is very good in its own right even though it has a different setup to what we have been a custom to.
Not sure about the Golf R comments, I'm sure it's great but at the end of the day, it's just a golf.
The M range will always feel that but more special and a rarer sight on the road.
Naturally for me if I could afford either, I would own the M4. But for now I will stick with my dated E61 M5.
[quote=Driver101]dislike the new M3 as a 6 cylinder engine is not as good as an 8 cylinder, and a 6 cylinder engine has no place in a M3. They completely forget the fact that the M3 is possibly more famous for 6 cylinder engines and only ever had one V8./quote]
Personally I never owned E46 or prior M3 so for me the E92 was my first proper M and if it had been a 6 cylinder then I may well have gone down the Audi/Merc route.
As customers of BMW, and lets face it most of us are happy customers (i.e. happy with our cars but also happy to share opinions on others!), maybe we should be asking why they went V8 for one generation? I guess the obvious answer is to keep pace with Audi/Merc but I don;t think I have ever seen it officially explained by BMW - anyone have a link?
Personally I never owned E46 or prior M3 so for me the E92 was my first proper M and if it had been a 6 cylinder then I may well have gone down the Audi/Merc route.
As customers of BMW, and lets face it most of us are happy customers (i.e. happy with our cars but also happy to share opinions on others!), maybe we should be asking why they went V8 for one generation? I guess the obvious answer is to keep pace with Audi/Merc but I don;t think I have ever seen it officially explained by BMW - anyone have a link?
x5x3 said:
maybe we should be asking why they went V8 for one generation? I guess the obvious answer is to keep pace with Audi/Merc but I don;t think I have ever seen it officially explained by BMW - anyone have a link?
The NA straight six was tuned within at inch of it's life and at the limit of it's power/size, turbo's weren't either necessary for emissions (yet), or deliver the expected high revving M power delivery or soundtrack.So a more powerful and lighter (than the S54) V8 was the obvious interim choice. Downside was MPG was even worse, which is not really acceptable these days, it needs to get better.
0836whimper said:
The NA straight six was tuned within at inch of it's life and at the limit of it's power/size, turbo's weren't either necessary for emissions (yet), or deliver the expected high revving M power delivery or soundtrack.
So a more powerful and lighter (than the S54) V8 was the obvious interim choice. Downside was MPG was even worse, which is not really acceptable these days, it needs to get better.
yet the E92 335 was not exactly a slouch?So a more powerful and lighter (than the S54) V8 was the obvious interim choice. Downside was MPG was even worse, which is not really acceptable these days, it needs to get better.
and why not turbo the V8?
other cars went down this route.
why not keep a V8 for those that want it and a 6 for those who do not?
anyway it is their company and they build what they want, we should be pleased we have such a choice of cars really - I cannot see it being the same for my kids in the future, by the time they will be able to afford the car they want it will be a very sterile choice.
Driver101 said:
Log on to the Audi sites and it is completely different.
Question to new member "What Audi do you have"?
New member, "I'm not sure what model it is. It is red, has 4 doors and a diesel engine. I think it is 2.0l".
Rest of forum "Great car, you'll love it. We all have cars like yours".
They just don't seem to have the competitive edge the BMW sites do and they all promote their cars and don't seem too concerned on specifics like BMW sites.
Log on to the Golf R fourm, their aw the fastist motors gone. Theyve jist ripped a lambo doon the high streat. The 4 wheel drive and turbo kicked in and a won the race between the Asda and McDonald's car park.
They'll all join in and agree it's the best car in the world, then worry that their £200 per month lease payment comes out the bank tomorrow and doesn't leave them £5 for petrol.
Then people don't quite figure why BMWs now tend to suffer higher depreciation when even the owners talk the brand down, often without valid reason.
Partly agree but the Audi you describe is the kind of audi that is targetted at the apathetic buyer - BMW do the same with the 3/520d, it's an appliance to meet a need not a want. I'd imagine the RS forums to be similar to here as we as passionate enthusiasts would like to think we've made considered choices (where we have had to balance compromises) not just succumbed to the marketing spiel spouted by salespeople about how a 320d MSport is all you need and is the best BMW on the market...Question to new member "What Audi do you have"?
New member, "I'm not sure what model it is. It is red, has 4 doors and a diesel engine. I think it is 2.0l".
Rest of forum "Great car, you'll love it. We all have cars like yours".
They just don't seem to have the competitive edge the BMW sites do and they all promote their cars and don't seem too concerned on specifics like BMW sites.
Log on to the Golf R fourm, their aw the fastist motors gone. Theyve jist ripped a lambo doon the high streat. The 4 wheel drive and turbo kicked in and a won the race between the Asda and McDonald's car park.
They'll all join in and agree it's the best car in the world, then worry that their £200 per month lease payment comes out the bank tomorrow and doesn't leave them £5 for petrol.
Then people don't quite figure why BMWs now tend to suffer higher depreciation when even the owners talk the brand down, often without valid reason.
Edited by Driver101 on Sunday 4th January 17:02
And obviously once such a considered choice has been made, people feel the need to defend their own like their own offspring. With recent M cars IMO the individual identity has become more blurred than ever before. I have never owned an M car, but will soon and have loved Ms from the E46/39 era as a kid. Back then the E46 M3 was the high revving screamer, cutting edge at the time SMG etc. The E39 was more grown up, more space, big lazy V8 and both cars had distinct characters. If I had to choose between stock E46 and E39 I probably couldn't as both had their own merits and appeal - E46 CSL for the weekend and E39 daily anyone? You could run both for their own reasons.
Next up you had E9x with a V8 which was a departure from the 'considered' choice of E46 and the E60 with a screamer V10. I bet the E39 boys of the time dismissed the V10 as it was a different prospect/character to the old car and arguably not suited to the application but again both E9x and E60 had their own distinct characters to differentiate between each other AND more importantly, the rest of the cooking range. If I had to pick I'd go with E92 (although at launch the E60 would have been my choice, over time the slightly more questionable reliability of the powertrain means the M3 edges it for me)
Now with the F10M vs F80M everything has gone turbo, (now the old boys' considered choice of M weapon and its heritage/principles have slowly been/continuing to be eroded) add in the size and weight of both, add in character of power delivery of both, the sound and where it comes from etc etc.... Differentiating between F10M and F80M has become more difficult than before and ultimately comes down to 1. size 2. finish 3. sound IMO (not meant to be in any order). Personally F10 for me every time (on paper at least) as I think BMW are just cutting too many corners in build quality/finish on anything below 5 series standard. But in reality F10 could be too big for a lot of people and as such the F80 has its place in the eyes of buyers. Not only does the closeness of M3 and M5 cause friction amongst enthusiasts about which is better; add in the fact that they're more similar to the cooking models than ever before, and what was once an aspirational model with its own distinct appeal and character now just becomes 'another car' and back to the 'apathetic' buyer demographic of 'boring' stuff. Could anyone justify both an M4 coupe and an M5 like an E46 and E39 combo?
x5x3 said:
yet the E92 335 was not exactly a slouch?
and why not turbo the V8?
other cars went down this route.
why not keep a V8 for those that want it and a 6 for those who do not?
anyway it is their company and they build what they want, we should be pleased we have such a choice of cars really - I cannot see it being the same for my kids in the future, by the time they will be able to afford the car they want it will be a very sterile choice.
And herein lies the problem... With each new generation of M the early principles of light weight, N/A, RWD, hydraulic PAS are slowly being eaten away to meet market demand/emissions. If the E46M was available brand new today it probably wouldn't sell as well as the F80 even if all us PHers think otherwise. In fact such a car wouldn't even be allowed thanks to legislation.and why not turbo the V8?
other cars went down this route.
why not keep a V8 for those that want it and a 6 for those who do not?
anyway it is their company and they build what they want, we should be pleased we have such a choice of cars really - I cannot see it being the same for my kids in the future, by the time they will be able to afford the car they want it will be a very sterile choice.
Right now take the M5 brigade, there are those 'purists' who miss and staunchly defend the screaming V10 of the E60 despite fearful transmission errors, limp modes, pathetic range and fuel consumption. All those flaws seem to be addressed with the F10M with an engine more suited in a big comfy barge BUT purists/owners/buyers will scream it's not a 'proper' M5 anymore. Next generation of M5 will arrive and the current crop of owners for whom the F10 was the perfect car/iteration of an M5 will scream that it's AWD, has electric PAS, and maybe even runflats and how it's not a 'proper' M5 anymore. Boohoo. BMW will still make it, journos will still like it, and a new demographic will still buy it and defend it to the hills. I guarantee it.
Jazzer said:
Stereotype city there 101.
What's with the bitterness and veiled insults?
Are you not well?
Chill FFS.
I'm perfectly fine. It was called being funny and if this forum was a bit better on the phone, I'd have put big smiley faces for your benefit. What's with the bitterness and veiled insults?
Are you not well?
Chill FFS.
Edited by Jazzer on Sunday 4th January 18:00
Edited by Jazzer on Sunday 4th January 18:02
I'm not bitter and I'm not insulting you. You're obviously in the BMW M4 thread to have banter with your Golf and as you've an M5, knock the M4. I was stereotyping, but it is often true.
Like I say though, if anyone is genuinely in the market for a premium coupe, a hot hatch isn't really in the equation. If you're looking for an Audi S3, Seat Leon R, M135i, Astra VXR, Renault Megane and so on, the Golf R is a perfectly suited alternative.
If you're looking at bigger more expensive RWD coupes, and aren't happy it only has a 3 litre 6 cylinder twin turbo engine, you're aren't going to be happier with a 4 cylinder 2.0 litre hot hatch that's primarily FWD.
Two different markets that simply don't meet in the middle. There is far more to buying a car than simply a 0-60mph time.
If people don't like the M4 their alternatives are things like C63 Mercs and the new Lexus coupe looks nice too.
When spending a lot of money on a car, you want it to make you feel special. The Golf doesn't do that for me.
Joking aside the lease deals aren't a good thing and I know people who bought early with cash that are furious. I've read other people who also aren't happy. The happiest guys are the ones paying £180 per month after years of driving very ordinary cars for the same finance payments.
The unhappy ones were previous Golf R owners and we're always precious about the exclusivity of having the MK6R over the GTi. They are now scared of the depreciation and hate the fact it is no longer a rare car that made them stand out.
The cheap deals have instantly made the car too popular and fall into the hands of people who couldn't otherwise have £30k cars. I was laughing at the guy who couldn't pass a Vodafone check for an iPhone, but could get a Golf R.
I've actually no idea why the R was introduced to the thread as it wasn't the debate. I really shouldn't have picked you up on the point and continued the argument. There is already enough Golf R threads and every last aspect of it has been covered a million times over.
Enjoy the car and we'll get on with the M4.
Edited by Driver101 on Sunday 4th January 21:20
Edited by Driver101 on Sunday 4th January 21:26
Driver101 said:
I'm perfectly fine. It was called being funny and if this forum was a bit better on the phone, I'd have put big smiley faces for your benefit.
I'm not bitter and I'm not insulting you. You're obviously in the BMW M4 thread to have banter with your Golf and as you've an M5, knock the M4. I was stereotyping, but it is often true.
Like I say though, if anyone is genuinely in the market for a premium coupe, a hot hatch isn't really in the equation. If you're looking for an Audi S3, Seat Leon R, M135i, Astra VXR, Renault Megane and so on, the Golf R is a perfectly suited alternative.
If you're looking at bigger more expensive RWD coupes, and aren't happy it only has a 3 litre 6 cylinder twin turbo engine, you're aren't going to be happier with a 4 cylinder 2.0 litre hot hatch that's primarily FWD.
Two different markets that simply don't meet in the middle. There is far more to buying a car than simply a 0-60mph time.
If people don't like the M4 their alternatives are things like C63 Mercs and the new Lexus coupe looks nice too.
When spending a lot of money on a car, you want it to make you feel special. The Golf doesn't do that for me.
Joking aside the lease deals aren't a good thing and I know people who bought early with cash that are furious. I've read other people who also aren't happy. The happiest guys are the ones paying £180 per month after years of driving very ordinary cars for the same finance payments.
The unhappy ones were previous Golf R owners and we're always precious about the exclusivity of having the MK6R over the GTi. They are now scared of the depreciation and hate the fact it is no longer a rare car that made them stand out.
The cheap deals have instantly made the car too popular and fall into the hands of people who couldn't otherwise have £30k cars. I was laughing at the guy who couldn't pass a Vodafone check for an iPhone, but could get a Golf R.
I've actually no idea why the R was introduced to the thread as it wasn't the debate. I really shouldn't have picked you up on the point and continued the argument. There is already enough Golf R threads and every last aspect of it has been covered a million times over.
Enjoy the car and we'll get on with the M4.
My car is an F10 M5.I'm not bitter and I'm not insulting you. You're obviously in the BMW M4 thread to have banter with your Golf and as you've an M5, knock the M4. I was stereotyping, but it is often true.
Like I say though, if anyone is genuinely in the market for a premium coupe, a hot hatch isn't really in the equation. If you're looking for an Audi S3, Seat Leon R, M135i, Astra VXR, Renault Megane and so on, the Golf R is a perfectly suited alternative.
If you're looking at bigger more expensive RWD coupes, and aren't happy it only has a 3 litre 6 cylinder twin turbo engine, you're aren't going to be happier with a 4 cylinder 2.0 litre hot hatch that's primarily FWD.
Two different markets that simply don't meet in the middle. There is far more to buying a car than simply a 0-60mph time.
If people don't like the M4 their alternatives are things like C63 Mercs and the new Lexus coupe looks nice too.
When spending a lot of money on a car, you want it to make you feel special. The Golf doesn't do that for me.
Joking aside the lease deals aren't a good thing and I know people who bought early with cash that are furious. I've read other people who also aren't happy. The happiest guys are the ones paying £180 per month after years of driving very ordinary cars for the same finance payments.
The unhappy ones were previous Golf R owners and we're always precious about the exclusivity of having the MK6R over the GTi. They are now scared of the depreciation and hate the fact it is no longer a rare car that made them stand out.
The cheap deals have instantly made the car too popular and fall into the hands of people who couldn't otherwise have £30k cars. I was laughing at the guy who couldn't pass a Vodafone check for an iPhone, but could get a Golf R.
I've actually no idea why the R was introduced to the thread as it wasn't the debate. I really shouldn't have picked you up on the point and continued the argument. There is already enough Golf R threads and every last aspect of it has been covered a million times over.
Enjoy the car and we'll get on with the M4.
Edited by Driver101 on Sunday 4th January 21:20
Edited by Driver101 on Sunday 4th January 21:26
I will continue to enjoy it for sure.
Have fun in the M4, but mind out for those M5s!!
Driver101 said:
I'm perfectly fine. It was called being funny and if this forum was a bit better on the phone, I'd have put big smiley faces for your benefit.
I'm not bitter and I'm not insulting you. You're obviously in the BMW M4 thread to have banter with your Golf and as you've an M5, knock the M4. I was stereotyping, but it is often true.
Like I say though, if anyone is genuinely in the market for a premium coupe, a hot hatch isn't really in the equation. If you're looking for an Audi S3, Seat Leon R, M135i, Astra VXR, Renault Megane and so on, the Golf R is a perfectly suited alternative.
If you're looking at bigger more expensive RWD coupes, and aren't happy it only has a 3 litre 6 cylinder twin turbo engine, you're aren't going to be happier with a 4 cylinder 2.0 litre hot hatch that's primarily FWD.
Two different markets that simply don't meet in the middle. There is far more to buying a car than simply a 0-60mph time.
If people don't like the M4 their alternatives are things like C63 Mercs and the new Lexus coupe looks nice too.
When spending a lot of money on a car, you want it to make you feel special. The Golf doesn't do that for me.
Joking aside the lease deals aren't a good thing and I know people who bought early with cash that are furious. I've read other people who also aren't happy. The happiest guys are the ones paying £180 per month after years of driving very ordinary cars for the same finance payments.
The unhappy ones were previous Golf R owners and we're always precious about the exclusivity of having the MK6R over the GTi. They are now scared of the depreciation and hate the fact it is no longer a rare car that made them stand out.
The cheap deals have instantly made the car too popular and fall into the hands of people who couldn't otherwise have £30k cars. I was laughing at the guy who couldn't pass a Vodafone check for an iPhone, but could get a Golf R.
I've actually no idea why the R was introduced to the thread as it wasn't the debate. I really shouldn't have picked you up on the point and continued the argument. There is already enough Golf R threads and every last aspect of it has been covered a million times over.
Enjoy the car and we'll get on with the M4.
My car is an F10 M5.I'm not bitter and I'm not insulting you. You're obviously in the BMW M4 thread to have banter with your Golf and as you've an M5, knock the M4. I was stereotyping, but it is often true.
Like I say though, if anyone is genuinely in the market for a premium coupe, a hot hatch isn't really in the equation. If you're looking for an Audi S3, Seat Leon R, M135i, Astra VXR, Renault Megane and so on, the Golf R is a perfectly suited alternative.
If you're looking at bigger more expensive RWD coupes, and aren't happy it only has a 3 litre 6 cylinder twin turbo engine, you're aren't going to be happier with a 4 cylinder 2.0 litre hot hatch that's primarily FWD.
Two different markets that simply don't meet in the middle. There is far more to buying a car than simply a 0-60mph time.
If people don't like the M4 their alternatives are things like C63 Mercs and the new Lexus coupe looks nice too.
When spending a lot of money on a car, you want it to make you feel special. The Golf doesn't do that for me.
Joking aside the lease deals aren't a good thing and I know people who bought early with cash that are furious. I've read other people who also aren't happy. The happiest guys are the ones paying £180 per month after years of driving very ordinary cars for the same finance payments.
The unhappy ones were previous Golf R owners and we're always precious about the exclusivity of having the MK6R over the GTi. They are now scared of the depreciation and hate the fact it is no longer a rare car that made them stand out.
The cheap deals have instantly made the car too popular and fall into the hands of people who couldn't otherwise have £30k cars. I was laughing at the guy who couldn't pass a Vodafone check for an iPhone, but could get a Golf R.
I've actually no idea why the R was introduced to the thread as it wasn't the debate. I really shouldn't have picked you up on the point and continued the argument. There is already enough Golf R threads and every last aspect of it has been covered a million times over.
Enjoy the car and we'll get on with the M4.
Edited by Driver101 on Sunday 4th January 21:20
Edited by Driver101 on Sunday 4th January 21:26
I will continue to enjoy it for sure.
Have fun in the M4, but mind out for those M5s!!
Kawasicki said:
Similar situation with E28 and E34.
Current gen: F10M5 4.4 twin turbo V8, next step down you have 4.4 twin turbo V8 used in the 550i (not that many are sold in the UK) and twin turbo 6pots in the 535i and 535d. Previous gen: E60M5 had the S85 V10 - need I say more? Same applies to the M3, twinturbo 6 pots at the top end models now whereas before you had n/a V8, next step down was 6pot TT in 335i.
The separation admittedly wasn't as great in the E46/E39 area on paper I guess but in reality noone was ever going to compare a 330Ci or 540i with the respective Ms as an ownership proposition. The 1M I'd say is the one car to buck all expectations despite being a parts bin special effectively picking up bits from the E92 M3, the engine was a tweaked lump from the 35i engines used in 3 series and Z4 wasn't it? But the beauty of the 1M was there was no precedent set, it ripped up any expectations and rulebook to be followed by M. Some said it was a successor to the E30M3 but executed in a different way - it just seemed to turn out a right laugh to drive. When the M2 comes out, the inevitable comparisons with the 1M will happen and any character differences will be criticised as flaws that don't fit the 1M blueprint.
Well had the M4 on an extended 3 day trial.
A different one from last time.
Anyway, decided just to drive my normal every day journeys and not over analyse.
Nice and smooth in and around city centre, quiet and refined on A roads/motorway with a lovely surge of speed as expected.
Local B roads are despatched with contempt with great grip and little roll.
Did it exite?
No, no, no.
Really disappointed! I stand my opinion that the engine and resulting performance is more like a high capacity turbo diesel.
Loads of shove but little noise and entertainment!
If I bought this I would have to get a weekend car as well for pure excitement when I was hoping it would do both jobs well.
Which in that case I may as well get a fast diesel saloon and still have a weekend car.
So much wanted this to work, give me one with less power but more feel and noise and allow me to be connected to what is going on!
So, so disappointed and a backward step for M in my opinion.
A different one from last time.
Anyway, decided just to drive my normal every day journeys and not over analyse.
Nice and smooth in and around city centre, quiet and refined on A roads/motorway with a lovely surge of speed as expected.
Local B roads are despatched with contempt with great grip and little roll.
Did it exite?
No, no, no.
Really disappointed! I stand my opinion that the engine and resulting performance is more like a high capacity turbo diesel.
Loads of shove but little noise and entertainment!
If I bought this I would have to get a weekend car as well for pure excitement when I was hoping it would do both jobs well.
Which in that case I may as well get a fast diesel saloon and still have a weekend car.
So much wanted this to work, give me one with less power but more feel and noise and allow me to be connected to what is going on!
So, so disappointed and a backward step for M in my opinion.
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