Redux E30 M3 Leichtbau

[SimonE30M3]

e21Mark said:

Good to see you interacting with other enthusiasts and discussing your project. I'm sure it's not easy to just accept criticism although one would hope its all constructive, rather than simply malicious.

Aesthetics are always going to be subjective so open for debate. It would be boring if we all liked the same things anyway. I am also mindful that all we (Joe Public) have seen thus far amounts to a sketch on the back of a fag packet. As such, certain detail isn't so easy to picture and see clearly. I think it can be tough to combine styling cues from different era but it's certainly not impossible.

Anyway, best of luck with the project and I look forward to seeing how it progresses in the coming months.

Cheers Mark, always happy to answer questions & deal with the criticism/comments/feedback - it certainly would be very boring if we all agreed on everything.

Yes, I've intentionally held back on revealing the current ideas/designs. As we develop the prototype, things will certainly continue to change, so I'd prefer to wait until the appropriate time to share the finished renderings. Combining different eras can be tricky, hence why I'm using great designers with lots of experience. We're working to ensure the end result is worthy of the iconic E30 M3.

[Mr_B]

SimonE30M3 said:

Mr_B said:

Sounds horrid and to be blunt, ripping off the Singer tag on something that won't be built to anything like the level as you won't find 30 people willing to spend £300k on an M3 if it was built to that level.
The Singer takes what you have and add very subtle superbly well engineered details to add to the car but keeping it recognisably 911 , i'e they haven't stuck a roof hoop on or a turbo on where there was none. These Singer guys knew you would never ever do that and the key was add to what you have, not radically change it. These guys seems to see it as the route to big power and therefore better - wrong !

Mr B, thank you for your feedback. To put your mind at rest, we won't be charging £300K. Our aim is to build every Redux E30 M3 Leichtbau to the highest possible standards, using the best components in order to deliver a well balanced & agile E30 M3. This is not about big power, top speeds, or 0-60 times. Singer has been a big influence & we aspire to be put into the same bracket of quality vehicles.

Your ideal spec E30 M3 is very much along the same lines as our current bill of materials. This will continue to be tweaked & honed as the Leichtbau evolves. Yes, we are referencing some of the older cars - E9 Batmobile, E21 Flying Brick (4-cylinder turbo) - because they were exciting, ground breaking cars & pushed the boundaries of what was thought possible in Motorsport at the time. We intend to do exactly the same with the Redux E30 M3 Leichtbau. Please feel free to PM me or fire any questions to: [e-mail]

Cheers.

It wasn't so much the price that bothers me, mainly because I'm not in the market for a £20K car, let alone a bespoke one. It was more the idea of wanting to take the Singer approach ( one I love even though I dislike 911's ) but not then not really following their ethos to how in my mind it should be.
For me the idea is to take what you have and just turn it up a notch in every area but not to hugely change it. Switching to a turbo would be a vast change I feel and veer away from what makes the car and not adding to what you have. A 2.5L 280bhp ish carbon airboxed motor just seemed the obvious way to go.

The other point which raised an eyebrow was the roof hoop proposal. You mention referencing older iconic BMWs, but again, I feel to my mind that's a mistake and veering away from the Singer ethos and down a slightly different road. Personally, I would do what they have done and tweak what you have to the point where it's very subtle and you are spending huge sums of cash to replicate what most would see as something no different. For example, an all carbon panel set but with the arches flared by millimeters and not the cartoon style of some of the big arch kits which I think emanate from Germany.

To fill those arches and update the design, you wouldn't simply buy in an off the shelf 17" wheel, you'd go to the silly expense of taking the the factory later 16" wheels and replicating them exactly just in 17" form and to fill your specifically designed arches,and hopefully with the back space for bigger brakes. That again is for me where Singer got it so right. Taking a road wheel and keeping the design look but making it bespoke in a way that many would have to ask if it's not a factory item. Someone actually looked at doing this I believe on one of the forums and had some CAD designs done but I don't think anything came of it, so possibly something you could sell on after to other owners ? About the only other wheel which might work is the 2 part DTM style wheels that you can now get in a 5 lug form, but then plenty of people have already done that.

To be fair, it sounds as if your ideas are not to do that, but have a bespoke car with the best components but not being afraid change the look to quite a degree and perhaps a switch to a turbo engine , which to my mind at least is quite a major departure from the core of an M3.
Hope none of the above sounds too critical. I look forward to seeing the final design spec and production cars.

PS. If you start buying up M3s and removing bits fora build, I need a mint pair of black leather front seats...

Edited by Mr_B on Monday 4th May 11:28

[stevesingo]

ReduxE30M3 said:

The images used for the article/website are the very rough sketches we did right at the start - we have plenty more, believe me. Your ideal spec is very much along the same lines as we're working on. Will aim to keep you posted with developments. If you've any questions, feel free to PM me or send me an email: [e-mail]

It's good to see you are looking in to the social media where your project has generated discussion, I can't think of a better way to have a "Clinic".

There are E30 M3 specific forums which could help you focus your designs in to what I believe should be E30 M3 distilled in to a purer form, not E30M3 rolling in glitter.

Having gone through an E30 M3 restoration, I would advise you that although the factory parts support is good for such an old car, there are lots of E30 M3 specific parts which are no longer available, and would be very costly to reproduce. Things such as the thinner Evo glass, some of the aluminium window and gutter trims, Sport Evo Grills, seat cloth are really difficult to reproduce, or offer an alternative for. There simply is not the after market reproduction specialist which 911s enjoy.

WRT Engine spec; A scaled options list would work on top of a rebuild, for example.

250hp 2.3 cams+airbox+decent exhaust.
270hp 2.3 head porting+high compression pistons+cams+airbox+decent exhaust
280hp 2.5 head porting+high compression pistons+cams+airbox+decent exhaust- big increase in cost due to new crank, block, and oil squirters.
300hp 2.7 As above but add the cost of rods and pistons.

WRT Suspension; There are fully adjustable GpA type set-ups available, but I don't know how that would fit in with any type approval.

WRT Wheels; They must look stock or have a link to period motorsport, BBS E50 ect. 17" is about as large as you can go without modifying the front inner wheel arches. You are limited on tyre choice as the natural size would be 225/40-17, but that size doesn't exist. 235/40-17 is popular, but these are limited in options.

Any wheel must retain the stock offset in order to maintain the same scrub radius and not screw up the steering feel. The wheel must also have enough space for opposing piston brake calipers.



FWIW, I'm not a potential customer as I have a nice enough E30M3.

[SimonE30M3]

Mr_B said:

It was more the idea of wanting to take the Singer approach ( one I love even though I dislike 911's ) but not then not really following their ethos to how in my mind it should be.

The other point which raised an eyebrow was the roof hoop proposal. You mention referencing older iconic BMWs, but again, I feel to my mind that's a mistake and veering away from the Singer ethos and down a slightly different road.

About the only other wheel which might work is the 2 part DTM style wheels that you can now get in a 5 lug form, but then plenty of people have already done that.

To be fair, it sounds as if your ideas are not to do that, but have a bespoke car with the best components but not being afraid change the look to quite a degree and perhaps a switch to a turbo engine , which to my mind at least is quite a major departure from the core of an M3.

Hope none of the above sounds too critical. I look forward to seeing the final design spec and production cars.

PS. If you start buying up M3s and removing bits fora build, I need a mint pair of black leather front seats...

Edited by Mr_B on Monday 4th May 11:28

Understood. To be clear, I'm not aiming to replicate what Singer has done to the 911 with an E30 M3. What Rob Dickinson has done is his personal preference, which looks superb. I merely used Singer as a reference as I firmly believe it has influenced not just me but many other petrol heads globally - & the 964 second hand market.

Wheels are something that, as Mr Dickinson rightly says: "maketh the car."

Glad of the feedback & will keep an eye out for the seats for you

[SimonE30M3]

stevesingo said:

It's good to see you are looking in to the social media where your project has generated discussion, I can't think of a better way to have a "Clinic".

There are E30 M3 specific forums which could help you focus your designs in to what I believe should be E30 M3 distilled in to a purer form, not E30M3 rolling in glitter.

Having gone through an E30 M3 restoration, I would advise you that although the factory parts support is good for such an old car, there are lots of E30 M3 specific parts which are no longer available, and would be very costly to reproduce. Things such as the thinner Evo glass, some of the aluminium window and gutter trims, Sport Evo Grills, seat cloth are really difficult to reproduce, or offer an alternative for. There simply is not the after market reproduction specialist which 911s enjoy.

WRT Engine spec; A scaled options list would work on top of a rebuild, for example.

250hp 2.3 cams+airbox+decent exhaust.
270hp 2.3 head porting+high compression pistons+cams+airbox+decent exhaust
280hp 2.5 head porting+high compression pistons+cams+airbox+decent exhaust- big increase in cost due to new crank, block, and oil squirters.
300hp 2.7 As above but add the cost of rods and pistons.

WRT Suspension; There are fully adjustable GpA type set-ups available, but I don't know how that would fit in with any type approval.

WRT Wheels; They must look stock or have a link to period motorsport, BBS E50 ect. 17" is about as large as you can go without modifying the front inner wheel arches. You are limited on tyre choice as the natural size would be 225/40-17, but that size doesn't exist. 235/40-17 is popular, but these are limited in options.

Any wheel must retain the stock offset in order to maintain the same scrub radius and not screw up the steering feel. The wheel must also have enough space for opposing piston brake calipers.



FWIW, I'm not a potential customer as I have a nice enough E30M3.

Much appreciated & thank you for the suggested options.

Parts - agreed & yes we will be producing various custom parts to mix & match with OEM.

Engine development - requires much more discussion (happening this coming week).

Suspension - Gp A spec is potentially a bit harsh, so we're working on a balanced set up using Rally Prep's considerable expertise & experience (not just with E30 M3 rally cars).

Wheels - having spent days/weeks/months of my life going through wheel options - I kid you not - using a BBS road or track design is non-negotiable. That's not to say it can't be tweaked slightly - as Singer & Magnus Walker did with the Fuchs - but the original design character must remain.

[diamanick]

Nice concept and like the idea of an 'RS Clubsport' E30 although I'm in the same boat as most and quite happy with mine.

For me one of either;

Group 5 320 bodywork or standard with Carbon bits mentioned prior inc EVO3 front arches / perspex etc.
2.3 / 2.5 NA with 240 / 270 hp option - 8k limit. Or go group 5 E9 CSL crazy with a 450hp turbo motor.
Sequential gearbox.
Quaife LSD, 3.64 / 3.73.
AP's / Rally prep
Ohlins road and track derivative // Bilstein, Eibach, ARB's
BBS E50 / A lighter Compomotive TH - 16's or 17's.
No cage / Half / Matter
Recaro Pole position.
Indianapolis Formel wheel with a boss extension.

The trouble you will have is identity. What can you do that hasn't already been done or is available to those that really, really want that next level as a package? I'd be very interested to see how you break down perspective packages and pricing.

[sjb1970]

I'm firmly in the boat that the E30 M3 is perfect as it is...I'm even going down the route of changing the dusty ds2500's back to OE pads on mine.
I think you'll get a less favourable reception in the UK as these cars are so rare here, of course they did originally make 17000 of them but the UK saw VERY few indeed as they weren't officially imported and I bet there's no where near 17000 left 25 years on anyway....
It seems a shame to open these cars up as in a couple of cases & potentially irreversibly modify them.
The yanks don't seem to mind modding these to death and they had a massive amount ordered over there BITD - I bet they will love this concept, me? I think they are too special and iconic as they are to be played with. Why not buy up a few 318i's and play about with them ? you can pick them up for £2000 ;-)

Best of luck though! I'm certainly not enraged or particularly bothered about this concept, I've got my keeper so that's more important. And the less standard / lightly modded cars on the road only adds to the desirability of the remaining standard cars!

Edited by sjb1970 on Tuesday 5th May 08:35

Edited by sjb1970 on Tuesday 5th May 08:38

[sjb1970]

http://s14net.vbulletin.net/forum/s14/general-e30-...

The Yanks view...

[e21Mark]

I'm in the UK but firmly in modification camp. Whilst I like ALL versions of the E30 M3, I like my own far more because of the changes that have been made to it. I actually see standard car as being more of a blank canvas that can be taken in specific directions according to the mods made to it. Aesthetics are always going to be subjective I know, but the stock car always looks under wheeled to me. Unfortunately, it's values that seems to be stopping people really enjoying their E30 M3. That and the lack of availability of some spares.

[EvoIV NL]

I am building a e30 M3 track car at the moment - cant say I like look of this idea but thats just me, the original shape was just so good and there are plenty of subtle body styling modifications available to adapt to personal choices - DTM front wings, mirror and rear spoilers etc...

Interestingly most if not all e30 m3 body panels are available in carbon already too - there are some excellent suppliers in Germany and the UK e.g. Markus, BMP Conversions and others

[e21Mark]

Just wondered if there had been any further progress with this project?

[e21Mark]

2 years on. Anything happening with this?

[stevesingo]

I suppose the greater the value of the donor car, the less likely folks want to pull it apart and turn it into something else.

That is my polite opinion.

[e21Mark]

I know they'd started building their first car, as I saw it soon after it had been shipped over from the USA. It was a very nice, low mileage example in brilliant red. I think I read something about the engine having been dyno'd? Although I also heard they'd had a change of engine builder.

[Rich_W]

If you follow Simon and his team on Facebook or Instagram they are now showing teaser pics quite regularly.

https://www.instagram.com/reduxleichtbau/

Not sold on the round air ducts, would prefer rectangular ones, but I await to see the finished car with interest.

[e21Mark]

The only questionable thing I have seen thus far (which was only a rendering so may well not make it onto the cars) was an E46 CSL'esque treatment of the rear.

There seems to be an awful lot of reinventing the wheel going on though.

[Rich_W]

e21Mark said:

The only questionable thing I have seen thus far (which was only a rendering so may well not make it onto the cars) was an E46 CSL'esque treatment of the rear.

There seems to be an awful lot of reinventing the wheel going on though.

I see it in the mould of Singer and their 911's



Take a E30 M3 shell, completely refresh it with no rust. Then fit the absolute best components you can and modify other parts to bring the car up to 2017 technology.

The "controversial" part is they are Turbocharging the S14. I know each car is going to be bespoke. I wondered why they didn't just do a 2.7 or even 3.0 conversion to the S14 to keep the car NA. But I daresay that's something they could do I requested.

It would be great to be in the position to take a tired M3 and throw £100K at it to make your ideal perfect car.

[e21Mark]

The 911 is unique though, in as much as it's a car that's remained true to the original ethos and just been developed over the past 40+ years. The E30 M3 was only around for about 5 years before it became something different with the E36. If you wanted, for want of a better description, a Singer E30 M3 you need to take something like the E46 M3 and make it look like the E30. At least then you'd still have a brilliant normally aspirated engine and a hugely capable chassis.

I know people have turbo'd the s14 for years (Graham Bahr had what was arguably the UK's fastest 316 ) but I don't get why off the shelf parts weren't used? I can't see the need for custom crank, pistons and rods when this stuff is available from some of the best manufacturers out there? The aesthetics are always going to be subjective though and I'm firmly in the ''BMW got is right with the Evo 2'' camp. Trying to combine styling cues from a swooping 60's design with a boxy, straight edge 80's one is going to be tough. Especially if you then try and add something from the 90's or later.

I can see the attraction of building an M3 how you want it though and it's what I've done with my own, albeit on a shoe string budget by comparison. I've just tried to do it in keeping with a) what works and b) what was done in period.

Obviously we're just chatting and this is just my opinion / thoughts.

I can't say I'm a fan of this though.

[M5 London]

Has anyone on here actually turbocharged an S14, or know someone who has ?

This has got me thinking. I presume one could turbocharge an S14 without any permanent customisation, especially if not running too high boost pressure ?

I have a supercharged E39 M5 and it has been great, and feel it has added to the character and feel of the S62, but I have it off the road at the moment.

Also my current daily driver is about 740 HP and I just get the feeling when I get behind the wheel of the E30 M3 I acquired recently, I am going to be a little underwhelmed in terms of outright ooomph.....

Obviously adding FI to an S14 could be considered sacrilege, but at the same time could be an awful lot of fun, without permanently devaluing your cherished E30 M3.

Discuss....

Edited by M5 London on Sunday 14th May 14:12

[Rich_W]

e21Mark said:

The 911 is unique though, in as much as it's a car that's remained true to the original ethos and just been developed over the past 40+ years. The E30 M3 was only around for about 5 years before it became something different with the E36. If you wanted, for want of a better description, a Singer E30 M3 you need to take something like the E46 M3 and make it look like the E30. At least then you'd still have a brilliant normally aspirated engine and a hugely capable chassis.

I know people have turbo'd the s14 for years (Graham Bahr had what was arguably the UK's fastest 316 ) but I don't get why off the shelf parts weren't used? I can't see the need for custom crank, pistons and rods when this stuff is available from some of the best manufacturers out there? The aesthetics are always going to be subjective though and I'm firmly in the ''BMW got is right with the Evo 2'' camp. Trying to combine styling cues from a swooping 60's design with a boxy, straight edge 80's one is going to be tough. Especially if you then try and add something from the 90's or later.

I can see the attraction of building an M3 how you want it though and it's what I've done with my own, albeit on a shoe string budget by comparison. I've just tried to do it in keeping with a) what works and b) what was done in period.

Obviously we're just chatting and this is just my opinion / thoughts.

I can't say I'm a fan of this though.

I don't think that e46CSL boot lid is likely. I got the impression they were concepts and that most were keeping the car visually the same, which is what I would choose to do. Same looks, but uprated mechanicals along the same line as the original car.

I would say time will tell, but it's been a good few years so far