Redux E30 M3 Leichtbau

Redux E30 M3 Leichtbau

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Discussion

tch911

Original Poster:

374 posts

210 months

Wednesday 22nd April 2015
quotequote all
Anyone seen this?
http://www.hagertyinsurance.co.uk/Articles-and-Res...

It looks like they are undertaking a 'Singer' on the E30. Am not sure I'm that impressed to be honest, such a shame to chop up original cars, god forbid anyone did this to an EVO.

Their website doesn't give a lot more info: http://www.reduxleichtbau.com/

frown

stevesingo

4,848 posts

221 months

Wednesday 22nd April 2015
quotequote all
Judging by the image on the website, it will look a right dogs dinner!

And a Turbo FFS? I dispair.

I thought some time ago about the prospect of a Singer-a-like type E30 M3.

Carbon front wings, bonnet, boot, bumpers and possibly non sunroof roofskin.

Upgraded S14 2.5 with 280-290hp with carbon airbox.

6speed 'box

Upgraded brakes and trick (Ohlins/AST) suspension.

Manual windows, folding shell recaros, suede contact points.

mark.c

1,090 posts

179 months

Wednesday 22nd April 2015
quotequote all
stevesingo said:
Judging by the image on the website, it will look a right dogs dinner!

And a Turbo FFS? I dispair.

I thought some time ago about the prospect of a Singer-a-like type E30 M3.

Carbon front wings, bonnet, boot, bumpers and possibly non sunroof roofskin.

Upgraded S14 2.5 with 280-290hp with carbon airbox.

6speed 'box

Upgraded brakes and trick (Ohlins/AST) suspension.

Manual windows, folding shell recaros, suede contact points.
That would be pretty much my perfect spec too. It would be nice to see some renderings of the Lightweight car mentioned so will reserve judgment, its very easy to ruin the original shape IMO. As for Turbo's, no matter how good the latest technology is unless the car had the precise on/off throttle behavour of the original then its a non starter for me.


Rob747

225 posts

175 months

Thursday 23rd April 2015
quotequote all
Turbo would almost certainly ruin the character of the car. 280bhp NA would be fantastic.

Carbon bits yes.

DTM airbox yes.

Subtle aero/diffusers yes.

Big brakes and lightweight centre lock wheels yes.

So basically a touring car with a some nice interior trim?

Where do I sign?!


Schermerhorn

4,342 posts

188 months

Thursday 23rd April 2015
quotequote all
Stick an E46 M3 S54 engine and manual 6 speed gearbox in it, CSL style carbon air box and some SICOM ceramic brakes all around and you have something beautiful.

ady702

376 posts

146 months

Thursday 23rd April 2015
quotequote all
one way to screw up the car!

stevesingo

4,848 posts

221 months

Thursday 23rd April 2015
quotequote all
Schermerhorn said:
Stick an E46 M3 S54 engine and manual 6 speed gearbox in it, CSL style carbon air box and some SICOM ceramic brakes all around and you have something beautiful.
Still peddling those brakes? They better be slim because there is not a lot of space from ball joint to inner of the wheel spokes to play with. I did ask a question on your SICOM sales thread, but you neglected to answer.

An S54 spoils the handling balance and there is more weight in front of the front axle.

Do Singer, put water cooled 996 engines in their cars?

Schermerhorn

4,342 posts

188 months

Thursday 23rd April 2015
quotequote all
stevesingo said:
Schermerhorn said:
Stick an E46 M3 S54 engine and manual 6 speed gearbox in it, CSL style carbon air box and some SICOM ceramic brakes all around and you have something beautiful.
Still peddling those brakes? They better be slim because there is not a lot of space from ball joint to inner of the wheel spokes to play with. I did ask a question on your SICOM sales thread, but you neglected to answer.

An S54 spoils the handling balance and there is more weight in front of the front axle.

Do Singer, put water cooled 996 engines in their cars?
Hi Steve, I answered the question. The SICOM discs were 40mm in thickness.

There are no installation drawings available. I asked my colleague, and he could not provide me with the answer you were looking for and to be 100% honest, I have not revisited that thread because it slipped my mind.

What I could answer, I did so as quickly as I could to the best of my capabilities.

No conspiracy going on or ducking any questions smile

stevesingo

4,848 posts

221 months

Friday 24th April 2015
quotequote all
The reason I asked is that an E30 M3 is very limited in space for disc unless you change the wheel design, which then limits your wheel choice. I have looked at lots of caliper drawings and there is no caliper I can find that will fit behind a stock 16" wheel when using even a 25.4mm thick disc.

The question I asked was what is the thinnest disc thickness? If they produced a 25.4mm thick disc in 315-330mm diameter that would be useful. As for calipers, a dimension of 55mm from disc outer face to outside extremity of the caliper would be needed. Hence the questions.

Schermerhorn

4,342 posts

188 months

Friday 24th April 2015
quotequote all
stevesingo said:
The reason I asked is that an E30 M3 is very limited in space for disc unless you change the wheel design, which then limits your wheel choice. I have looked at lots of caliper drawings and there is no caliper I can find that will fit behind a stock 16" wheel when using even a 25.4mm thick disc.

The question I asked was what is the thinnest disc thickness? If they produced a 25.4mm thick disc in 315-330mm diameter that would be useful. As for calipers, a dimension of 55mm from disc outer face to outside extremity of the caliper would be needed. Hence the questions.
Hi Steven,

Hmmm, interesting set of questions and answers!

I'm sure something could be custom made if we had enough requests and set orders.

stevesingo

4,848 posts

221 months

Friday 24th April 2015
quotequote all
It may be hard to get people to commit without knowing it is possible. Some info from SICOM on caliper dimensions and minimum disc thickness available would be helpful.

Schermerhorn

4,342 posts

188 months

Friday 24th April 2015
quotequote all
stevesingo said:
It may be hard to get people to commit without knowing it is possible. Some info from SICOM on caliper dimensions and minimum disc thickness available would be helpful.
Hi Steve

At the moment, the minimum thickness of the discs is 40mm. The diamters vary from 320mm to 410mm. Thus far we have yet to recieve any orders for anything older than say a 996/997 Porsche.

However, the tooling is available to create just about most things if the demand is there and solid (financially backed) orders come in.

We're planning to do some videos in the near future and maybe some factory visits for a few selected customers for a 'behind the scenes' sort of thing. Your feedback has been excellent Steve, and we're always looking for like minded people!

e21Mark

16,205 posts

172 months

Saturday 25th April 2015
quotequote all
Neil Yates / Rally Prep were responsible for building Chris Harris' rally M3, amongst others. They've just completed another, inspired by Snijers Manx car and wearing the same Bastos livery. There's no denying his experience or ability, plus he has a massive amount of experience, when it comes to chassis design and dynamics. The looks thing though, is always going to be subjective and those pics do little for me. BMW got the E30 M3 so right that it's hard to see additional spoilers etc improving things. Less is most certainly more in my opinion.

My vote would also go for retaining the s14, although I can see why a turbo might be a relatively safe and reliable way to improve power. Tuning s14's is bloody expensive and you could easily spend £15k+ to achieve a modest output of 300 brake. A low pressure turbo set-up might well achieve that power for much less and ultimately prove more reliable?

Personally I wouldn't want the limited number of genuine M3 to be changed too much. You could always use a regular E30 as a base though? Especially if you were going to replace the majority of panels with carbon fibre anyway. That way you could also offer right hand drive, for people who can't drive! tongue out

Mr_B

10,480 posts

242 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
quotequote all
Sounds horrid and to be blunt, ripping off the Singer tag on something that won't be built to anything like the level as you won't find 30 people willing to spend £300k on an M3 if it was built to that level.
The Singer takes what you have and add very subtle superbly well engineered details to add to the car but keeping it recognisably 911 , i'e they haven't stuck a roof hoop on or a turbo on where there was none. These Singer guys knew you would never ever do that and the key was add to what you have, not radically change it. These guys seems to see it as the route to big power and therefore better - wrong !

So my Singer spec M3

An all carbon body panel ( front and rear wing, boor lid, bonnet and roof skin )set with just the very slightest ( if at all ) flare to the arches and a few areas cleaned up. Aluminum doors with some kinda door bar protection as I doubt I'd have a roll cage.

Set of 17" wheels made to replicate the factory 16" items with the back space for a bespoke brake kit and to possibly fill the flared arches.

2.5L engine with around 270-280 bhp - naturally aspirated!

6 speed manual gearbox . Carbon propshaft ? Aluminium diff case housing the original diff.

Total rebuild of the suspension with the finest components to a road compliant spec.

Complete retrim around sport evo style seats but doing something funky with the trim materials, maybe doing something to cover the dash and array of cheap plastic on show. Ally door openers and window winders black anodised or something.

Modified instrument cluster with maybe shift lights replacing the service indicator or a scrolling digital gauge displaying temps and details.

Then all the detail bits like bespoke wiring harness, maybe better lights up front ( but replicating the originals as much as poss ), modified sport evo adjustable wings to be motorized and adjustable on the move and so on etc.

Having written all the above, I think I'd be equally as happy with a stock car but with just the engine....

e21Mark

16,205 posts

172 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
quotequote all
I think you're right. People are more likely to seek out well considered and subtle modifications, than simply go bigger and more = better. Added to which, there are a lot of owners for who originality is key anyway.

Personally I had always wanted a modified M3, but I wanted any mods to add to the driving experience and not detract from the M3 feel. Regarding aesthetics, I always felt the stock M3 looks under wheeled in road spec, but as I wanted better brakes a switch to 17'' was crucial. Under the skin I opted for better suspension, an M Coupe diff and the benefit of wider, modern rubber. Inside, a flocked dash and well padded race seats and a cage are all I need. I do have an FM radio but I prefer the sound of the s14 and carbon air box. It's a car built to my wish list though and certainly not what the next guy might like. It's all stuff that can be reversed, should the fancy take me.

Looking at their proposed body mods, I just don't think they're needed. The central exhaust would look way better with one pipe on each side, as per the E21 323i or Lancia Integrale. I don't think the bigger arches are a good look. Plus there are already plenty of big arch kits out there. The OE Evo wings allow plenty of clearance for wider wheels anyway.

There is definitely a pretty strong 'resto mod' scene in the UK and a lot to be said for taking an old car and redeveloping it with modern components. I have a 1982 BMW 3 series which has hardly any original parts left! The body shell, glass, dash and lights are about the lot. It still looks pretty original (apart from the colour & wheels) but it now has a modern, fuel injected 2.8, modern billet 4 pot brakes as part of a wholly redesigned system, different steering, larger LSD, modern coilover suspension etc etc. The whole car was stripped and rebuilt from a freshly painted, 'as new' shell and is as close to a new E21 as I could get it. It wasn't cheap (to me anyway) but it's still more than most would probably want to spend on a first generation 3 series. When all is said and done though, it's my 'Singer' I guess. It has been built to a standard that far exceeds BMW's of that period and is unique. It probably cost about the same as a 2 year old 118d but a) it's not a 1 series, b) it won't depreciate and c) with 260bhp thanks to an m52/2.8 on throttle bodies, it has great performance but still does 40+ mpg! Added to which I'm unlikely to see another.

Getting back to the Redux E30 M3 Leichtbau though, it'll be interesting to see a proper rendering of what they have planned.

ReduxE30M3

17 posts

106 months

Sunday 3rd May 2015
quotequote all
Rob747 said:
Turbo would almost certainly ruin the character of the car. 280bhp NA would be fantastic.

Carbon bits yes.

DTM airbox yes.

Subtle aero/diffusers yes.

Big brakes and lightweight centre lock wheels yes.

So basically a touring car with a some nice interior trim?

Where do I sign?!
Thanks for the feedback Rob. I'm meeting with the Rally Prep & engine guys this week to continue the discussion around the S14 options - the turbo relates back to the Dinan option offered in the US. We also have a link to a BMW Motorsport engineer who ran S14 turbo tests back in the 80s. Happy to discuss with you, or anyone else, on a call. Pls send your contact details to admin@reduxleichtbau.com

Edited by ReduxE30M3 on Sunday 3rd May 21:18

ReduxE30M3

17 posts

106 months

Sunday 3rd May 2015
quotequote all
stevesingo said:
Judging by the image on the website, it will look a right dogs dinner!

And a Turbo FFS? I dispair.

I thought some time ago about the prospect of a Singer-a-like type E30 M3.

Carbon front wings, bonnet, boot, bumpers and possibly non sunroof roofskin.

Upgraded S14 2.5 with 280-290hp with carbon airbox.

6speed 'box

Upgraded brakes and trick (Ohlins/AST) suspension.

Manual windows, folding shell recaros, suede contact points.
The images used for the article/website are the very rough sketches we did right at the start - we have plenty more, believe me. Your ideal spec is very much along the same lines as we're working on. Will aim to keep you posted with developments. If you've any questions, feel free to PM me or send me an email: admin@reduxleichtbau.com

ReduxE30M3

17 posts

106 months

Sunday 3rd May 2015
quotequote all
e21Mark said:
I think you're right. People are more likely to seek out well considered and subtle modifications, than simply go bigger and more = better. Added to which, there are a lot of owners for who originality is key anyway.

Personally I had always wanted a modified M3, but I wanted any mods to add to the driving experience and not detract from the M3 feel. Regarding aesthetics, I always felt the stock M3 looks under wheeled in road spec, but as I wanted better brakes a switch to 17'' was crucial. Under the skin I opted for better suspension, an M Coupe diff and the benefit of wider, modern rubber. Inside, a flocked dash and well padded race seats and a cage are all I need. I do have an FM radio but I prefer the sound of the s14 and carbon air box. It's a car built to my wish list though and certainly not what the next guy might like. It's all stuff that can be reversed, should the fancy take me.

Looking at their proposed body mods, I just don't think they're needed. The central exhaust would look way better with one pipe on each side, as per the E21 323i or Lancia Integrale. I don't think the bigger arches are a good look. Plus there are already plenty of big arch kits out there. The OE Evo wings allow plenty of clearance for wider wheels anyway.

There is definitely a pretty strong 'resto mod' scene in the UK and a lot to be said for taking an old car and redeveloping it with modern components. I have a 1982 BMW 3 series which has hardly any original parts left! The body shell, glass, dash and lights are about the lot. It still looks pretty original (apart from the colour & wheels) but it now has a modern, fuel injected 2.8, modern billet 4 pot brakes as part of a wholly redesigned system, different steering, larger LSD, modern coilover suspension etc etc. The whole car was stripped and rebuilt from a freshly painted, 'as new' shell and is as close to a new E21 as I could get it. It wasn't cheap (to me anyway) but it's still more than most would probably want to spend on a first generation 3 series. When all is said and done though, it's my 'Singer' I guess. It has been built to a standard that far exceeds BMW's of that period and is unique. It probably cost about the same as a 2 year old 118d but a) it's not a 1 series, b) it won't depreciate and c) with 260bhp thanks to an m52/2.8 on throttle bodies, it has great performance but still does 40+ mpg! Added to which I'm unlikely to see another.

Getting back to the Redux E30 M3 Leichtbau though, it'll be interesting to see a proper rendering of what they have planned.
Thanks for the feedback Mark, much appreciated. As with any proposed modifications to a superb original car - BMW M's finest to date, still? - the attention to detail & quality has to be of an exceptionally high standard otherwise it's a non-starter. As we progress, more information will be released via the various platforms & forums. Watch this space. Cheers.

SimonE30M3

17 posts

106 months

Monday 4th May 2015
quotequote all
Mr_B said:
Sounds horrid and to be blunt, ripping off the Singer tag on something that won't be built to anything like the level as you won't find 30 people willing to spend £300k on an M3 if it was built to that level.
The Singer takes what you have and add very subtle superbly well engineered details to add to the car but keeping it recognisably 911 , i'e they haven't stuck a roof hoop on or a turbo on where there was none. These Singer guys knew you would never ever do that and the key was add to what you have, not radically change it. These guys seems to see it as the route to big power and therefore better - wrong !
Mr B, thank you for your feedback. To put your mind at rest, we won't be charging £300K. Our aim is to build every Redux E30 M3 Leichtbau to the highest possible standards, using the best components in order to deliver a well balanced & agile E30 M3. This is not about big power, top speeds, or 0-60 times. Singer has been a big influence & we aspire to be put into the same bracket of quality vehicles.

Your ideal spec E30 M3 is very much along the same lines as our current bill of materials. This will continue to be tweaked & honed as the Leichtbau evolves. Yes, we are referencing some of the older cars - E9 Batmobile, E21 Flying Brick (4-cylinder turbo) - because they were exciting, ground breaking cars & pushed the boundaries of what was thought possible in Motorsport at the time. We intend to do exactly the same with the Redux E30 M3 Leichtbau. Please feel free to PM me or fire any questions to: admin@reduxleichtbau.com

Cheers.

e21Mark

16,205 posts

172 months

Monday 4th May 2015
quotequote all
ReduxE30M3 said:
Thanks for the feedback Mark, much appreciated. As with any proposed modifications to a superb original car - BMW M's finest to date, still? - the attention to detail & quality has to be of an exceptionally high standard otherwise it's a non-starter. As we progress, more information will be released via the various platforms & forums. Watch this space. Cheers.
Good to see you interacting with other enthusiasts and discussing your project. I'm sure it's not easy to just accept criticism although one would hope its all constructive, rather than simply malicious.

Aesthetics are always going to be subjective so open for debate. It would be boring if we all liked the same things anyway. I am also mindful that all we (Joe Public) have seen thus far amounts to a sketch on the back of a fag packet. As such, certain detail isn't so easy to picture and see clearly. I think it can be tough to combine styling cues from different era but it's certainly not impossible.

Anyway, best of luck with the project and I look forward to seeing how it progresses in the coming months.