E30 M3 - What's your ideal spec? (p.s. your budget is generous)
Discussion
Further to the initial discussion & comments about the Redux E30 M3 Leichtbau prototypes, I wanted to continue the debate about your ideal spec for an E30 M3. This is working on the theory:
1. Your budget allowance is generous - I'll leave the exact definition of that up to you.
2. It's a road car (not for everyday use & with occasional track days).
3. It remains faithful to the original E30 M3 & can reference older BMW M cars (road or track) but nothing after 1995.
To start the ball rolling:
Chassis - original E30 M3, chemical dip & rust protection, best quality paint.
Engine - 2.5l S14 turbo, fully rebuilt with high quality components, upgraded management system, & switchable mapping.
Gearbox - 6-speed H pattern, LSD diff conversion with modified ramp angles.
Brakes - upgraded to AP racing kit or similar (6 pot front, 330mm? 4 pot rear)
Suspension - fabricated front uprights, fabricated front axle assembly, fabricated rear crossmember & rear trailing arm assembly, front & rear anti roll bars, custom coil over including F&R top mounts, upgraded bush kits.
Wheels & tyres - 17" centre lock (8.5/9" front, 9.5/10" rear?), 2 or 3-piece custom (lightweight), Michelin Pilot Super Sport (ok, you can have modern tyres!).
Wiring loom - custom aircraft spec.
Body - custom carbon fibre: bonnet, front wings, roof panel, door skins, rear panels, bumpers & boot.
Interior - custom dash (with analogue Stack dials), half cage, aluminium pedals, DTM taller gearstick, carbon door cards, best quality switches (less plastic?), comfortable, lightweight, supportive seats - e.g. Recaro Sportster CS - remove rear seats, ICE optional (must have a cassette deck! I prefer to listen to the engine!).
Ok, looking forward to reading your suggestions....
1. Your budget allowance is generous - I'll leave the exact definition of that up to you.
2. It's a road car (not for everyday use & with occasional track days).
3. It remains faithful to the original E30 M3 & can reference older BMW M cars (road or track) but nothing after 1995.
To start the ball rolling:
Chassis - original E30 M3, chemical dip & rust protection, best quality paint.
Engine - 2.5l S14 turbo, fully rebuilt with high quality components, upgraded management system, & switchable mapping.
Gearbox - 6-speed H pattern, LSD diff conversion with modified ramp angles.
Brakes - upgraded to AP racing kit or similar (6 pot front, 330mm? 4 pot rear)
Suspension - fabricated front uprights, fabricated front axle assembly, fabricated rear crossmember & rear trailing arm assembly, front & rear anti roll bars, custom coil over including F&R top mounts, upgraded bush kits.
Wheels & tyres - 17" centre lock (8.5/9" front, 9.5/10" rear?), 2 or 3-piece custom (lightweight), Michelin Pilot Super Sport (ok, you can have modern tyres!).
Wiring loom - custom aircraft spec.
Body - custom carbon fibre: bonnet, front wings, roof panel, door skins, rear panels, bumpers & boot.
Interior - custom dash (with analogue Stack dials), half cage, aluminium pedals, DTM taller gearstick, carbon door cards, best quality switches (less plastic?), comfortable, lightweight, supportive seats - e.g. Recaro Sportster CS - remove rear seats, ICE optional (must have a cassette deck! I prefer to listen to the engine!).
Ok, looking forward to reading your suggestions....
Leins said:
Alpina B6 3.5S for me 
Just to add, please don't turbo an S14. Absolutely has to remain N/A IMO to keep the M3s character intact
The 6-cylinder engine swap is a tried & tested modification - something I considered at great length - but doesn't that change the characteristics of an E30 M3 more than an S14 turbo ever could...? The S54 is arguably one of BMW's best ever, but the S14 is synonymous with the E30 M3. Just to add, please don't turbo an S14. Absolutely has to remain N/A IMO to keep the M3s character intact
Edited by Leins on Monday 4th May 13:23
The E21 Group 5 "Flying Brick" 2.0l, 4-cylinder turbo & the Dinan S14 turbo engines both interest me more than an S50 or S54 - maintaining a 4-cylinder power plant is non-negotiable. Adding a turbo to the S14 is a potential development that BMW might have considered back in 1993 had they continued to build the E30 M3 until 1995....
The B6 is sort of my holy grail car with a BMW badge
BMW did want to put the M88 into the E30, although not necessarily for homologation purposes, but came to the conclusion it didn't fit - something Hartge managed subsequently though
As for the turbo, it would certainly make it fast, but would destroy what makes early M-car engines such a joy to use IMO, whether 4 or 6-cylinder
BMW did want to put the M88 into the E30, although not necessarily for homologation purposes, but came to the conclusion it didn't fit - something Hartge managed subsequently though
As for the turbo, it would certainly make it fast, but would destroy what makes early M-car engines such a joy to use IMO, whether 4 or 6-cylinder
What stands out about Singer is that firstly and foremost is that they are true 911 enthusiasts and the business of selling the cars came as a consequence of Rob Dickinson's own car, he did not set out with the intent of selling cars to customers.
If you want to retain the type of quasi authenticity Singer have managed to retain, you need to set the philosophy of what you want to achieve before throwing a wishlist of parts at an E30 shell hoping you end up with something you can sell.
I look at your ideal spec and I am struggling to believe that you actually understand what an E30 M3 really stands for for the people who really appreciate and love them. I also struggle to understand what you hope to gain from some of the mods in terms of performance gain for a road car, and whether you have envisaged how other mods will fit together aesthetically.
Have you thought about how the carbon rear wings, and roof panel will join to the existing steel panels, without a visible joint?
I don't want to come across negative, I posted on one of the E30 M3 forums exactly the idea of Singer-a-like E30M3s, so I think it could be a great idea if the philosophy is right. Otherwise you could end up with this...
If you want to retain the type of quasi authenticity Singer have managed to retain, you need to set the philosophy of what you want to achieve before throwing a wishlist of parts at an E30 shell hoping you end up with something you can sell.
I look at your ideal spec and I am struggling to believe that you actually understand what an E30 M3 really stands for for the people who really appreciate and love them. I also struggle to understand what you hope to gain from some of the mods in terms of performance gain for a road car, and whether you have envisaged how other mods will fit together aesthetically.
SimonE30M3 said:
Chassis - original E30 M3, chemical dip & rust protection, best quality paint.
This is a given, but expect to find rust in any donor shell. Then, if you are going to this...SimonE30M3 said:
Body - custom carbon fibre: bonnet, front wings, roof panel, door skins, rear panels, bumpers & boot.
Why use an M3 shell at all? Save £20k from the outset.Have you thought about how the carbon rear wings, and roof panel will join to the existing steel panels, without a visible joint?
SimonE30M3 said:
Engine - 2.5l S14 turbo, fully rebuilt with high quality components, upgraded management system, & switchable mapping.
As many has said, this is a cardinal sin in the E30 M3 world and fundamentally takes part of E30 M3 soul away.SimonE30M3 said:
Gearbox - 6-speed H pattern, LSD diff conversion with modified ramp angles.
The E30 M3 already has an LSD! Any change in ramps and locking would have to be verified with development. You can't just say you want it if you don't know what it will do.SimonE30M3 said:
Brakes - upgraded to AP racing kit or similar (6 pot front, 330mm? 4 pot rear)
Of course. You might not need 6piston calipers as they are a light car. SICOM could be persuaded to do a carbon ceramic kit for it.SimonE30M3 said:
Suspension - fabricated front uprights, fabricated front axle assembly, fabricated rear crossmember & rear trailing arm assembly, front & rear anti roll bars, custom coil over including F&R top mounts, upgraded bush kits.
What do you hope to gain over the standard set up? Why were these set ups used in motorsport? Where is the standard set up lacking?SimonE30M3 said:
Wheels & tyres - 17" centre lock (8.5/9" front, 9.5/10" rear?), 2 or 3-piece custom (lightweight), Michelin Pilot Super Sport (ok, you can have modern tyres!).
You will struggle to get an 9" wide tyre under the front arches, unless you do some significant work to the inner wheel arch, front bulkhead. Even 8.5" is tight. But then why so big? Wider tyres on the rear? Do you want to ruin the balance?SimonE30M3 said:
Wiring loom - custom aircraft spec.
Sure a good idea from a reliability point of view, and Singer do the same. How will you integrate Mil-Spec wiring and connectors with the existing architecture? The E30 headlamp clusters do not have a Mil-Spec connector!SimonE30M3 said:
Body - custom carbon fibre: bonnet, front wings, roof panel, door skins, rear panels, bumpers & boot.
This is in line with the motor sport ethos of the car, but even the latter DTM cars did not run wider arches. If you look at what Singer have done, they have produces and arch shape to replicate the '73 2.7RS motorsport shape. The E30M3 is the 2.7RS equivalent ergo, no replication required.SimonE30M3 said:
Interior - custom dash (with analogue Stack dials), half cage, aluminium pedals, DTM taller gearstick, carbon door cards, best quality switches (less plastic?), comfortable, lightweight, supportive seats - e.g. Recaro Sportster CS - remove rear seats, ICE optional (must have a cassette deck! I prefer to listen to the engine!).
Why a custom dash, what will it offer over the E30 M3 dash? Singer replicate an earlier period of 911, that fits in with the whole philosophy, does that need to happen here? What will a half cage offer in terms of rigidity-not a lot. Is it because it looks motorsport innit? Taller gear stick, on a road car? How will carbon door cards look with the interior trimming? Recaro Sportster CS is heavier than the Recaro Speeds fitted to the Sport Evo, too modern looking. Why remove the rear seats-looks motorsport-innit?I don't want to come across negative, I posted on one of the E30 M3 forums exactly the idea of Singer-a-like E30M3s, so I think it could be a great idea if the philosophy is right. Otherwise you could end up with this...
Chunkychucky said:
Honda S2000 engine and box either standard or with ITBs for full eargasm, recaros, Sport Evo body kit and a decent set of BBSs to finish things off
I think the BMW s14 with ITBs as stock is more than up to the job and I guess you've never heard a S14 with carbon airbox. The Sport Evo doesn't have a body kit. That is the body!stevesingo said:
I think the BMW s14 with ITBs as stock is more than up to the job and I guess you've never heard a S14 with carbon airbox. The Sport Evo doesn't have a body kit. That is the body!
I have, but if we're going for ideal spec I would be able to sleep easier at night turboing or buzzing a downshift with a ten-a-penny VTEC lump! Forgive me, Sport Evo front bumper/apron and rear wing with adjustable Gurney flap!ETA: I would also rectify my biggest problem with the E30 M3 and make it right hand drive so I could actually overtake something
I don't have a generous budget but I've spent the past year getting my own car to what I deem to be my ideal spec. Mind you, I'm still skint now as a result.
The shell is now totally free from corrosion, protected and literally about to be repainted. I had the interior paint re done and the cage properly installed a couple of months ago, which included the floor being strengthened as appropriate. Were it money no object, I would have stripped it to a bare shell, blasted (I don't like the dipping process and have seen way too many issues as a result. Most recently acid literally pouring from chassis rails when the shell was placed on a jig!) As well as fresh paint, the spoilers etc are SE spec with touches like Schnitzer carbon fibre door mirrors and Bonrath single wiper. The wheel arches have also been rolled, although this was done originally by Hamann Motorsport when the car was new and on their stand at the Munich motor show. It's a subtle mod but allows me to run 215/40 and 245/40 tyres front and rear respectively. The overall look these mods give is just about ideal for me.
The suspension was H&R coilovers but I have upgraded to KW3's. My car came with coilovers, or else I may have just considered Bilstein uprated shocks/inserts with slightly lower springs. The KW's are an good product though and work well with the uprated ARB's and adjustable top mounts. I've had the geometry done at a local specialist.
Brakes are Tarox 6 pot callipers with Ferodo DS2500 pads and grooved discs up front. The rears are stock save for Hawk pads. The car came on EBC red but I don't rate those at all. When I took them out they actually broke up and hardly inspire confidence. Lines are braided, with race fluid. The brakes are excellent and give exceptional performance. Obviously E30 aren't exactly heavy cars anyway, so massive brakes aren't really needed.
Wheels are Compomotives TH, although I am about to swap to BBS E50 3 piece alloys and have also replaced wheel bolts with studs and nuts, with Toyo r888's all round.
Inside, apart from a full Safety Devices cage, I have Ridgard seats and Willans harnesses. The dash has been flocked and there are some auxiliary gauges, such a digital AFR. There is a Momo race wheel on a snap-off mount, which is mainly to aid my getting in and out more easily. (I have a slight disability) I am thinking of fitting carbon fibre skins which are available to protect the paint of a bare floor. (I also have a full black leather interior in storage, should I ever decide to go back to full road trim or in the highly unlikely event i ever sell my car) There is an AM/FM radio fitted, along with 2 front speakers, for longer journeys. The radio is super basic with on/off/volume on one switch and a rocker switch to tune.
The s14 engine is what makes the M3 for me. Mine is a 2.3 with carbon airbox, Alpha N and around 230bhp. I would love a 2.5 with Schrick cams etc but I simply cannot afford it. That said, even in it's current state of tune it hassles along quite nicely and sounds great. I change the oil and filter every few thousand miles and have replaced plugs, rotor cap, arm and leads. I have also replaced the TPS and really just try to keep everything fresh and running right. I also stick to Esso super unleaded, after making the mistake of using some supermarket fuel and spending a small fortune trying to repair a subsequent misfire. One day I hope to be able to liberate a bit more power but there's no immediate urgency. I did consider replacing the Alpha N with a more modern ECU but frankly there's just no need. I'm really happy with the performance of my engine and its reliability. If it ain't broke etc.
It would be a shame to fit a turbo and lose the induction noise and exhaust. The carbon airbox is just about the best mod you can make to a stock M3.
Why anyone would want to convert to RHD is beyond me. Overtaking has never been a problem, unless you're too close to the car ahead anyway.
I use my M3 most days and in all weathers. I do occasional track days and trips to Sainsbury's. In the spring/summer I get up at silly o clock and go for a hoon just for the hell of it. Especially the B3306, which is great fun and one of the best roads down here. It's made all the better my driving it in my old E30.
http://www.greatestdrivingroads.com/great_roads/B3...
Shameless pic from last summer when I had the interior paint done.
It didn't look bad last year.
It still holds its own on track too.
I know the aesthetic mods aren't to everyones tastes but I like them and its my car. They're also reversible. The stone chips and crack to the bumpers corner are all being sorted as I type. It will still get driven daily though.
The shell is now totally free from corrosion, protected and literally about to be repainted. I had the interior paint re done and the cage properly installed a couple of months ago, which included the floor being strengthened as appropriate. Were it money no object, I would have stripped it to a bare shell, blasted (I don't like the dipping process and have seen way too many issues as a result. Most recently acid literally pouring from chassis rails when the shell was placed on a jig!) As well as fresh paint, the spoilers etc are SE spec with touches like Schnitzer carbon fibre door mirrors and Bonrath single wiper. The wheel arches have also been rolled, although this was done originally by Hamann Motorsport when the car was new and on their stand at the Munich motor show. It's a subtle mod but allows me to run 215/40 and 245/40 tyres front and rear respectively. The overall look these mods give is just about ideal for me.
The suspension was H&R coilovers but I have upgraded to KW3's. My car came with coilovers, or else I may have just considered Bilstein uprated shocks/inserts with slightly lower springs. The KW's are an good product though and work well with the uprated ARB's and adjustable top mounts. I've had the geometry done at a local specialist.
Brakes are Tarox 6 pot callipers with Ferodo DS2500 pads and grooved discs up front. The rears are stock save for Hawk pads. The car came on EBC red but I don't rate those at all. When I took them out they actually broke up and hardly inspire confidence. Lines are braided, with race fluid. The brakes are excellent and give exceptional performance. Obviously E30 aren't exactly heavy cars anyway, so massive brakes aren't really needed.
Wheels are Compomotives TH, although I am about to swap to BBS E50 3 piece alloys and have also replaced wheel bolts with studs and nuts, with Toyo r888's all round.
Inside, apart from a full Safety Devices cage, I have Ridgard seats and Willans harnesses. The dash has been flocked and there are some auxiliary gauges, such a digital AFR. There is a Momo race wheel on a snap-off mount, which is mainly to aid my getting in and out more easily. (I have a slight disability) I am thinking of fitting carbon fibre skins which are available to protect the paint of a bare floor. (I also have a full black leather interior in storage, should I ever decide to go back to full road trim or in the highly unlikely event i ever sell my car) There is an AM/FM radio fitted, along with 2 front speakers, for longer journeys. The radio is super basic with on/off/volume on one switch and a rocker switch to tune.
The s14 engine is what makes the M3 for me. Mine is a 2.3 with carbon airbox, Alpha N and around 230bhp. I would love a 2.5 with Schrick cams etc but I simply cannot afford it. That said, even in it's current state of tune it hassles along quite nicely and sounds great. I change the oil and filter every few thousand miles and have replaced plugs, rotor cap, arm and leads. I have also replaced the TPS and really just try to keep everything fresh and running right. I also stick to Esso super unleaded, after making the mistake of using some supermarket fuel and spending a small fortune trying to repair a subsequent misfire. One day I hope to be able to liberate a bit more power but there's no immediate urgency. I did consider replacing the Alpha N with a more modern ECU but frankly there's just no need. I'm really happy with the performance of my engine and its reliability. If it ain't broke etc.
It would be a shame to fit a turbo and lose the induction noise and exhaust. The carbon airbox is just about the best mod you can make to a stock M3.
Why anyone would want to convert to RHD is beyond me. Overtaking has never been a problem, unless you're too close to the car ahead anyway.
I use my M3 most days and in all weathers. I do occasional track days and trips to Sainsbury's. In the spring/summer I get up at silly o clock and go for a hoon just for the hell of it. Especially the B3306, which is great fun and one of the best roads down here. It's made all the better my driving it in my old E30.
http://www.greatestdrivingroads.com/great_roads/B3...
Shameless pic from last summer when I had the interior paint done.
It didn't look bad last year.
It still holds its own on track too.
I know the aesthetic mods aren't to everyones tastes but I like them and its my car. They're also reversible. The stone chips and crack to the bumpers corner are all being sorted as I type. It will still get driven daily though.
Edited by e21Mark on Thursday 7th May 10:21
e21Mark said:
The dash has been flocked and there are some auxiliary gauges, such a digital AFR.
Hi Mark,I have an AFR gauge from podi that sits in place of the central air vent. I've had problems calibrating mine; it will go below but not above 12. Don't think i'm alone in AFR gauges not functioning as they should and for me it's key in-car info with a tuned S14. We followed instructions prior to installation for normal o2 atmospherics, you have any particular advice with this?
Heartily agree Mark, the S14 defines the M3. Yours is a great set up & the carbon airbox with induction noise is hard to beat: http://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-germancars/bmw-...
I'm with Neil @ Rally Prep & Kieran @KSP this week discussing turbo options - more research to do but the options are certainly intriguing.
Absolutely, LHD also defines the E30 M3.
I'm with Neil @ Rally Prep & Kieran @KSP this week discussing turbo options - more research to do but the options are certainly intriguing.
Absolutely, LHD also defines the E30 M3.
SimonE30M3 said:
Heartily agree Mark, the S14 defines the M3. Yours is a great set up & the carbon airbox with induction noise is hard to beat: http://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-germancars/bmw-...
I'm with Neil @ Rally Prep & Kieran @KSP this week discussing turbo options - more research to do but the options are certainly intriguing.
Absolutely, LHD also defines the E30 M3.
Are they small turbo, low pressure systems? I'm just assuming minimal lag and reliability are priorities?I'm with Neil @ Rally Prep & Kieran @KSP this week discussing turbo options - more research to do but the options are certainly intriguing.
Absolutely, LHD also defines the E30 M3.
diamanick said:
Hi Mark,
I have an AFR gauge from podi that sits in place of the central air vent. I've had problems calibrating mine; it will go below but not above 12. Don't think i'm alone in AFR gauges not functioning as they should and for me it's key in-car info with a tuned S14. We followed instructions prior to installation for normal o2 atmospherics, you have any particular advice with this?
I don't I'm afraid. Mine was already fitted, although they are obviously sensitive to the lambda being in good order. Mine sent the readings crazy despite still working well enough to allow the engine to run.I have an AFR gauge from podi that sits in place of the central air vent. I've had problems calibrating mine; it will go below but not above 12. Don't think i'm alone in AFR gauges not functioning as they should and for me it's key in-car info with a tuned S14. We followed instructions prior to installation for normal o2 atmospherics, you have any particular advice with this?
Paul Sheppard at Circuit Motors / Castle Combe might be able to help?
Hi Mark,
Your car looks fantastic! Good on you for using it as intended, I hardly ever see one on the road nowadays, they always bring a smile to my face
Like you I have undertaken a full restoration of my (Evo 2) for the last couple of years, it's slow progress and very expensive to do properly. Yours is almost exactly the spec I would go for if I was intending to track mine regularly. As it is I have gone for factory spec on everything, but I'd love to compare the two at a meet someday....
Congrats on a stunning car
Rob
Your car looks fantastic! Good on you for using it as intended, I hardly ever see one on the road nowadays, they always bring a smile to my face
Like you I have undertaken a full restoration of my (Evo 2) for the last couple of years, it's slow progress and very expensive to do properly. Yours is almost exactly the spec I would go for if I was intending to track mine regularly. As it is I have gone for factory spec on everything, but I'd love to compare the two at a meet someday....
Congrats on a stunning car
Rob
e21Mark said:
Are they small turbo, low pressure systems? I'm just assuming minimal lag and reliability are priorities?
Currently working on a maximum of 1-1.2bar. Yes, a strong mid range, minimal lag & bullet proof reliability are top priorities. Edited by SimonE30M3 on Thursday 7th May 17:34
Hi Mark,
Your car looks fantastic! Good on you for using it as intended, I hardly ever see one on the road nowadays, they always bring a smile to my face
Like you I have undertaken a full restoration of my (Evo 2) for the last couple of years, it's slow progress and very expensive to do properly. Yours is almost exactly the spec I would go for if I was intending to track mine regularly. As it is I have gone for factory spec on everything, but I'd love to compare the two at a meet someday....
Congrats on a stunning car
Rob
Your car looks fantastic! Good on you for using it as intended, I hardly ever see one on the road nowadays, they always bring a smile to my face
Like you I have undertaken a full restoration of my (Evo 2) for the last couple of years, it's slow progress and very expensive to do properly. Yours is almost exactly the spec I would go for if I was intending to track mine regularly. As it is I have gone for factory spec on everything, but I'd love to compare the two at a meet someday....
Congrats on a stunning car
Rob
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