Refinement/fun

[sealtt]

I thought the E92 M3 was fantastic, I owned one back in 2010 / 2011 and it was really a great car.

Since then I bought the F12 M6 V8 (relying on my great experience with the M3) and was so disappointed. Boring, compromised car, that was hugely quick but totally boring to drive. Really did not like it and has really put me off BMW, not sure I'll ever buy one again now.

So for me I am totally with you, I lusted after the E46, bought and loved the E92 and have got rid of and hated the F12. I should try the new M4, but I'm not really in the market for that type of car anymore.

[Jazzer]

sealtt said:

I thought the E92 M3 was fantastic, I owned one back in 2010 / 2011 and it was really a great car.

Since then I bought the F12 M6 V8 (relying on my great experience with the M3) and was so disappointed. Boring, compromised car, that was hugely quick but totally boring to drive. Really did not like it and has really put me off BMW, not sure I'll ever buy one again now.

So for me I am totally with you, I lusted after the E46, bought and loved the E92 and have got rid of and hated the F12. I should try the new M4, but I'm not really in the market for that type of car anymore.

The M5/6 are more of a man's car, so it's perhaps better that you stick to the 3-series!

On a more serious note, I can only assume that you never test-drove M6s to get a feel for them....,and if you did, how come you got it so wrong?

They're quite stunning, in a completely different performance league to the M3/4.

One thing I will say: I'd much rather have an E92 M3 than an M4.

[theboss]

Jazzer said:

how come you got it so wrong?

I was wondering this too... but then I ordered my M5 totally blind so may have just as easily made the same mistake.

Has anyone driven M6 coupe and convertible back to back?

[StuH]

sealtt said:

I thought the E92 M3 was fantastic, I owned one back in 2010 / 2011 and it was really a great car.

Since then I bought the F12 M6 V8 (relying on my great experience with the M3) and was so disappointed. Boring, compromised car, that was hugely quick but totally boring to drive. Really did not like it and has really put me off BMW, not sure I'll ever buy one again now.

So for me I am totally with you, I lusted after the E46, bought and loved the E92 and have got rid of and hated the F12. I should try the new M4, but I'm not really in the market for that type of car anymore.

There is no absolute, it's all subjective. My e36 m3 was a bit of a dog, I loved my e46, e92 - meh, but most loved it. Meanwhile e39 M5 was OK but never really got me out driving for drivings sake, whereas e60 M5 - ansolutely magic with an engine I'm not sure will ever be beaten for character imo, and I include the 355's V8 in that!

[sealtt]

Jazzer said:

The M5/6 are more of a man's car, so it's perhaps better that you stick to the 3-series!

On a more serious note, I can only assume that you never test-drove M6s to get a feel for them....,and if you did, how come you got it so wrong?

They're quite stunning, in a completely different performance league to the M3/4.

One thing I will say: I'd much rather have an E92 M3 than an M4.

Well I did test drive it, had the car overnight on loan from BMW, and I thought it was OK. It was December though and wet so it wasn't exactly a huge chance to test the potential. I was surprised at how noisy it was on the motorway for a '£100k' - didn't cost me that of course - premium GT (I had the cabrio model), but other than that I thought why the hell not, I like BMW and I want a new car, lets give it a go.

Then I bought it and after a couple of months getting used to the big power, I'd had 500bhp+ cars before but this was the first with a DCT so it was a different experience. I just realised how lacking in excitement it was to drive. It felt every kg of it's 2 tonnes, had almost no steering feel and was just boring, my memory is of a sterile experience.

In the end I got rid of the M6, an apprentice of all trades but master of none - except depreciation @ 17% in 8 months, though I did do 15k miles! And replaced it with a Range Rover & a F430 Spider. A very good move which has resulted in 2 cars which really do their job properly and give me plenty of enjoyment be it a serene drive down the road to drop my kid off at school, or an intense blast around the country lanes. The M6 should have been able to do both of these things well (admittedly not as well as 2 separate cars) but it did not even get close.

One thing I will say in it's defence (other than the fact that it is very handsome!), is that I think using it as my daily driver with family, my work car and my weekend fun car and the family fun car, really ruined it a bit. If I had just bought it as a second car I'm sure it would have been enjoyed a lot more. But if you are going to buy a second car there's not really any point in getting a half sensible one, and you may as well get the F430 for the same money (and a lot less depreciation) as the M6!

The biggest problem with the M6 (especially cabrio) is that it just isn't luxury enough for a proper GT cruiser, and it just isn't light or agile enough to be a good drivers car. So what is it? Just a very expensive rocket ship which is not particularly luxurious nor particularly enjoyable to drive. That's why on paper and at first it seems great because it does everything, but in reality doing everything normally means doing everything not that well, hence why I only now buy focused cars for what I want them for.

Edited by sealtt on Monday 18th May 19:40

[bennyboysvuk]

Krupp Stahl said:

Over time, the Motorsport Division has become a brand in its own right and so has to cater for everyone who is likely to buy it. The vehicles seem to have become fatter and heavier in the process and are more laden with options to cater for this 'new' market.

Where does one go from here then? I'm not sure there's a manufacturer left that makes a car that has what older BMWs M cars had:

Normally aspirated
RWD
LSD equipped
Front-engined
4 seater
No driving modes
No hazard warning lights coming on when you brake hard
Noisy enough inside that you can hear the sound of the engine and exhaust

[SidewaysSi]

People want different things in cars and the majority of people want, or have been made to want, ever faster cars. For that, the latest cars will always fill their needs. I work with someone who loves knowing he has one of the fastest cars on the road and that is enough.

I prefer stuff that is more visceral, something that I can push hard on the road and stay this side of the law. It needs to be fun at low speeds rather than purely on a track and for that reason I only buy (into) the older stuff.

As for new cars, short of something like an Elise or Exige, there is very little at a reasonable price that can be used everyday that still gives me the same kick as my old nails.

[SPORTSTER]

bennyboysvuk said:

Where does one go from here then? I'm not sure there's a manufacturer left that makes a car that has what older BMWs M cars had:

Normally aspirated
RWD
LSD equipped
Front-engined
4 seater
No driving modes
No hazard warning lights coming on when you brake hard
Noisy enough inside that you can hear the sound of the engine and exhaust

Porsche Singer - if you have £300k...hahahha

[Crackie]

SPORTSTER said:

bennyboysvuk said:

Where does one go from here then? I'm not sure there's a manufacturer left that makes a car that has what older BMWs M cars had:

Normally aspirated
RWD
LSD equipped
Front-engined
4 seater
No driving modes
No hazard warning lights coming on when you brake hard
Noisy enough inside that you can hear the sound of the engine and exhaust

Porsche Singer - if you have £300k...hahahha

Singer's not really a 4 seater and certainly not front engined.

Panamera S ?? Not sure if has an LSD or not ?? Engine spec reads like a modern day E39 M5; fugly though.

[Rick448]

Well I want a car which is fairly quick and handles well enough to have some fun as well as being practical enough to carry my little one in comfort and safety. The M3 does that for me. Having just had a play in the wet I can't comprehend how anyone can say these cars are too refined. Even in efficiency more and full DSC engaged a boot full of throttle has the rear snaking whilst propelling the car forward at a fair rate of knots. With MDM and sport plus selected it is quite a handful. I agree these are a bit on the heavy side but I like my creature comforts in a car. I do wonder how many of the detractors have driven one of these cars in anger. For what it's worth I don't care what others think about my choice of car as it was my choice. I just think some of the comments are little odd. At the end of the day no one is forcing anyone to buy these cars. Maybe an Ariel Atom or Caterham would suit those wanting less refinement.

[Krupp Stahl]

bennyboysvuk said:

Where does one go from here then? I'm not sure there's a manufacturer left that makes a car that has what older BMWs M cars had:

Normally aspirated
RWD
LSD equipped
Front-engined
4 seater
No driving modes
No hazard warning lights coming on when you brake hard
Noisy enough inside that you can hear the sound of the engine and exhaust

The thing is, the first M3 was a car born out of the circumstances of the time and they were essentially what made it what it was. Even if BMW were willing, to attempt to re-invent it would be to ape an idea against the background of all that's followed. I just don't see how it will happen.

It's sad to say it, but I don't think we go anywhere from here in terms of what I think you're getting at. That's the enormous appeal of the E30 M3 and why it's so sought after. It is one of a kind and born out of its own very peculiar circumstances. M cars are now so very far away from that and the fact that the whole thing is such a financial concern to the company surely means that there is no way they're going to turn the clocks back.

[bennyboysvuk]

Crackie said:

Singer's not really a 4 seater and certainly not front engined.

Panamera S ?? Not sure if has an LSD or not ?? Engine spec reads like a modern day E39 M5; fugly though.

Not a bad suggestion, but I'd imagine it is hugely refined and well, it's just huge at over 5 metres long!

[bennyboysvuk]

Rick448 said:

Well I want a car which is fairly quick and handles well enough to have some fun as well as being practical enough to carry my little one in comfort and safety. The M3 does that for me. Having just had a play in the wet I can't comprehend how anyone can say these cars are too refined. Even in efficiency more and full DSC engaged a boot full of throttle has the rear snaking whilst propelling the car forward at a fair rate of knots. With MDM and sport plus selected it is quite a handful. I agree these are a bit on the heavy side but I like my creature comforts in a car. I do wonder how many of the detractors have driven one of these cars in anger. For what it's worth I don't care what others think about my choice of car as it was my choice. I just think some of the comments are little odd. At the end of the day no one is forcing anyone to buy these cars. Maybe an Ariel Atom or Caterham would suit those wanting less refinement.

It's a great car that you have there and it's horses for courses, but for me, your car would be better if it was quite a bit smaller, was normally aspirated, had no driving modes, was noisier inside, had a manual gearbox and no DSC. I still want to carry my son around in the child seat in the back so Caterhams and the like are out. Nobody makes a car like this any more so if one wants to buy a new car like this, they can't.

[Output Flange]

HoagieLomax said:

The E30 M3and E28 M5 are the Archetypal sports saloons,less is more approach with real Motorsport roots.A 1200 kg car with smallish tyres and enough power is the way forward for fun.

I still can't believe the E90 M3 weighs over 1600kg and apparently the F80 isn't much better either despite claims.

Not sure that "less is more" applies to the M5 - they left the factory with air con, electric seats and all modern comforts for the time. Factory quote a kerb weight of 1465kg, which IIRC is about the same as an E36 M3.

[iguana]

Benderboy- try a gt86 with a supercharger, ticks most of yr boxes except the n/a part.

[bennyboysvuk]

iguana said:

Benderboy- try a gt86 with a supercharger, ticks most of yr boxes except the n/a part.

Hello old pal. That sounds like it could be a goer actually. Have you had a go in one? What's the throttle response like? Is it as crisp as that beautiful old avus blue M3?

[iguana]

Benny- I've not driven one yet, pal has just bought one & is raving about it, i will get a try soon i hope, just thought it could suit you, throttle response on my sc mx5 was fine tho vs a stock example, tho they are just single big throttle body anyway rather than m3 six lovely butterflys.

[iguana]

Another thought, on the 350z they did an import only car badged a skyline, was basically a 4 seater 350z, I don't know if they do one on the 370. I like a 370, but obviously no good for you as is a 2 seater.

Oh I know its turbot, but you tried a 1m? Or a 4 dr manual e90 m3?

[bennyboysvuk]

Cheers for the ideas Lizardo.

The only thing putting me off of the GT86 is the number of cylinders and the associated soundtrack, plus the wife is a self-confessed badge snob. I'll have to check the '86 out closer to when I want to switch.

A 350z 4 seater. That's an interesting thought, but might be out on badge snobbishness and I thought the 350 was inferior to my old E46 M3, when I test drove one many moons ago.

I love the idea of the 1m, but I'm not sure I can get past the turbo. I'm always disappointed with turbos. I even found it frustrating in the VX220T.

The 4dr manual M3 could be a goer, but there are definitely things about the E90 that I would have to put up with as a road car. e.g. no cruise with DSC off and with DSC on it's a bit sensitive/sensible. Plus, it feels huge and a bit heavy to thread down small b-roads.

I'm actually leaning towards going much older and if I can convince the missus that an old car is a good idea then revisiting E36/46 M3s again. I need to wait until my son is old enough to easily clamber into a car seat first though. My head's all over the place with replacement ideas for the M135i. I guess time will tell. There's always the thought of a 911 too, but I don't want to spend the money and be disappointed, plus 911s with LSDs are rare as rocking horse poo. If only it could be as simple as picking a bike.

[Rick448]

'

bennyboysvuk said:

Cheers for the ideas Lizardo.

The only thing putting me off of the GT86 is the number of cylinders and the associated soundtrack, plus the wife is a self-confessed badge snob. I'll have to check the '86 out closer to when I want to switch.

A 350z 4 seater. That's an interesting thought, but might be out on badge snobbishness and I thought the 350 was inferior to my old E46 M3, when I test drove one many moons ago.

I love the idea of the 1m, but I'm not sure I can get past the turbo. I'm always disappointed with turbos. I even found it frustrating in the VX220T.

The 4dr manual M3 could be a goer, but there are definitely things about the E90 that I would have to put up with as a road car. e.g. no cruise with DSC off and with DSC on it's a bit sensitive/sensible. Plus, it feels huge and a bit heavy to thread down small b-roads.

I'm actually leaning towards going much older and if I can convince the missus that an old car is a good idea then revisiting E36/46 M3s again. I need to wait until my son is old enough to easily clamber into a car seat first though. My head's all over the place with replacement ideas for the M135i. I guess time will tell. There's always the thought of a 911 too, but I don't want to spend the money and be disappointed, plus 911s with LSDs are rare as rocking horse poo. If only it could be as simple as picking a bike.

Turbos have come on a long way in recent years and are very good now. The M3 has very little if any perceptible lag and the torque from low down is superb, it also likes to be revved so you get the best of both worlds. I'm not sure why you would need to have DSC turned off if you had cruise control activated though I've not tested the E9x M cars but I find the MDM mode to be really good on the road (in the dry)