E60 M5 Rod Bearing Failure! - Advice Really Appreciated
Discussion
Schermerhorn said:
I am of the opinion that maybe 10w60 is not neccesarily the correct oil for this car anymore. The TWS recipe is quite an old one and the lubricant game has moved on significantly since it was first introduced. Indeed, Castrol are not even BMWs preferred supplier anymore!
Maybe switch to a lighter oil such as Mobil1 0w40 oil which would be lighter on the internal parts rather than the heavier 10w60 stuff? It would also lubricate the pistons quicker and help the engine warm up quicker too.
Infact, the newer BMW M cars use 0w spec engine oil too and not the 10w60 of the past 15 or so years.....
Just a thought.......
With all due respect, BMW was correct in recommending 10W60 and you are wrong in thinking that it is not appropriate. The first approved oil was 10W60 RS, then went on to TWS, which stands for Ten W Sixty, and now you have Edge 10W60 for M Engines. The formula has evolved over the years. Secondly, if you compare 40 weight oil with 60 weight oil at 110C, the difference is staggering. The film sheer strength of 60 weight oil is times x bigger than that of 40 - pretty important for rod bearings at 8250rpm. The S85 forged pistons have tiny skirts and are quite "loose" in the alusil bores, fuel dilution of the oil is quite bad - 60 weight yet again is many times more resistant to it than 40. Maybe switch to a lighter oil such as Mobil1 0w40 oil which would be lighter on the internal parts rather than the heavier 10w60 stuff? It would also lubricate the pistons quicker and help the engine warm up quicker too.
Infact, the newer BMW M cars use 0w spec engine oil too and not the 10w60 of the past 15 or so years.....
Just a thought.......
There is no such thing as "quicker lubrication" of pistons - they are splash lubricated and the skirts are bathed in oil as soon as you turn the starter motor on. If anything, thicker oil has a better chance of sticking on the thrust surfaces of the skirts. Anyway, we are not talking about piston wear issues here, which the S85 does not seem to be suffering from anyway.
My feeling is that simply the bearings are too tight. BMW is not the only car maker to feck things up. For example Porsche used to sell bearings for its watercooled cars - the 944, 928 and 968 (which are all the same) in three tolerance groups. Now they only do one. For a higher revving race engine, of course you want the loosest, but now, invariably you get the tightest in 3 out of 5 sets. It is getting more cost effective to do the crank to match the bearings...
Patrick Bateman said:
How hot does the e60 tend to run?
I've only ever seen over 100 degrees a couple of times on my e39 and that's on a hot day giving it a pasting.
You were not driving it hard enough I've only ever seen over 100 degrees a couple of times on my e39 and that's on a hot day giving it a pasting.
My E61 in Germany would regularly see 110+ but it would regularly sit at 160mph or be going from 120 to 172mph traffic dependent. At the Ring it would sit at 120, but it would also do 6 laps to a tank, so...
Cheburator mk2 said:
Schermerhorn said:
I am of the opinion that maybe 10w60 is not neccesarily the correct oil for this car anymore. The TWS recipe is quite an old one and the lubricant game has moved on significantly since it was first introduced. Indeed, Castrol are not even BMWs preferred supplier anymore!
Maybe switch to a lighter oil such as Mobil1 0w40 oil which would be lighter on the internal parts rather than the heavier 10w60 stuff? It would also lubricate the pistons quicker and help the engine warm up quicker too.
Infact, the newer BMW M cars use 0w spec engine oil too and not the 10w60 of the past 15 or so years.....
Just a thought.......
With all due respect, BMW was correct in recommending 10W60 and you are wrong in thinking that it is not appropriate. The first approved oil was 10W60 RS, then went on to TWS, which stands for Ten W Sixty, and now you have Edge 10W60 for M Engines. The formula has evolved over the years. Secondly, if you compare 40 weight oil with 60 weight oil at 110C, the difference is staggering. The film sheer strength of 60 weight oil is times x bigger than that of 40 - pretty important for rod bearings at 8250rpm. The S85 forged pistons have tiny skirts and are quite "loose" in the alusil bores, fuel dilution of the oil is quite bad - 60 weight yet again is many times more resistant to it than 40. Maybe switch to a lighter oil such as Mobil1 0w40 oil which would be lighter on the internal parts rather than the heavier 10w60 stuff? It would also lubricate the pistons quicker and help the engine warm up quicker too.
Infact, the newer BMW M cars use 0w spec engine oil too and not the 10w60 of the past 15 or so years.....
Just a thought.......
There is no such thing as "quicker lubrication" of pistons - they are splash lubricated and the skirts are bathed in oil as soon as you turn the starter motor on. If anything, thicker oil has a better chance of sticking on the thrust surfaces of the skirts. Anyway, we are not talking about piston wear issues here, which the S85 does not seem to be suffering from anyway.
My feeling is that simply the bearings are too tight. BMW is not the only car maker to feck things up. For example Porsche used to sell bearings for its watercooled cars - the 944, 928 and 968 (which are all the same) in three tolerance groups. Now they only do one. For a higher revving race engine, of course you want the loosest, but now, invariably you get the tightest in 3 out of 5 sets. It is getting more cost effective to do the crank to match the bearings...
The only reason I suggested the 0w40 over the 10w60 was based on the advise of a BMW technician friend of mine who found his M5 ran better when he moved oils. Furthermore, quite a few American owners also switched oils and reported good things too.
Perhaps it's a placebo effect that encourages this sort of thinking
Shaoxter said:
Funny isn't it, talk among the Porsche crowd is to switch from 0W40/5W40 to 10W50/10W60
Reason being 5W40 doesn't provide enough protection in a hot engine and in an older car the clearances get bigger so thicker oils are ok.
Indeed - and the leading M96 Porsche engine rebuild specialist will not honour its warranty unless a specific brand of 10w50 is used. But the main issue with that engine is not thin wall bearing failure - it's bore scoring.Reason being 5W40 doesn't provide enough protection in a hot engine and in an older car the clearances get bigger so thicker oils are ok.
But perhaps, if the S85 bearing wear/failure issue is as a result of poor cold start oil flow, there is a case for an oil with a 0w cold rating?
In my very humble opinion redish automotive are by far and away the best people to deal with the s85 engine and they know their stuff.
They say stick with 10w-60.
Yes, some internet people may say that their car runs better on 0-40 and it could feel better/quicker but that's like saying nitrous makes your car quicker or chipping it makes it feel better. It certainly might but that doesn't mean it's healthier for the engine, does it?
They say stick with 10w-60.
Yes, some internet people may say that their car runs better on 0-40 and it could feel better/quicker but that's like saying nitrous makes your car quicker or chipping it makes it feel better. It certainly might but that doesn't mean it's healthier for the engine, does it?
Some time ago I saw a quote from a senior M engine designer that reluctantly agreed that for UK and USA type road driving 10W-60 was not appropriate, but he then said if you drive like that, why buy an M car? 10W-60 was specified for typical German use and tracking where the high film strength at higher oil temperatures is required. I believe this was for the E39 not E60 though.
It seems odd to say that regarding UK use (the 'why buy an M car' bit) given the thermostat is a fairly low temperature one as far as most engines go.
As I said further up the page, I've seen over 100 degrees only a couple of times while caning it on a hot day, all it takes is a straight section of road with good airflow and it quickly lowers again.
As I said further up the page, I've seen over 100 degrees only a couple of times while caning it on a hot day, all it takes is a straight section of road with good airflow and it quickly lowers again.
Aren't you reading that the wrong way round? That statement to me makes some kind of sense as sustained running at high speed (on the autobahn) for instance will see oil temp well above 110 (certainly was the case on my s54), and that is something that just isn't possible on our roads, but is something the engine and car is designed to do. The 10w-60 I'm supposing is designed to offer the protection needed at those temps, if the engine never sees those kind of temperatures then you might specify a different oil rating..?
Patrick Bateman said:
reluctantly agreed that for UK and USA type road driving 10W-60 was not appropriate, but he then said if you drive like that, why buy an M car?
Is that not essentially asking why buy an M car in the UK and USA at all though? Seems an odd thing to say.
A very blunt, Teutonic sort of thing to say.Is that not essentially asking why buy an M car in the UK and USA at all though? Seems an odd thing to say.
Hello again, sorry for the delay but been away on holiday. The engine is still with Paddock Motors - their M power specialist was away on holiday and is looking at it this week.
I've decided to get it back on the road, whether that will be a rebuild with Paddock, or importing an engine from Troy Jeup in the US. He rebuilds engines with strengthened internals and ships them over for $10k.
I'm off on holiday to Peru for 2 months next week, so decided not to pursue the warranty route as life is too short and spent too much time and stress on this already. I'm happy to put the experience behind me, move on and look forward to actually enjoying the car when i get back.
I'll report back when Paddock have diagnosed the damage to the engine, plus given me the quote for a rebuild.
Looking forward to being an M5 driver again soon! Thanks again for all the advice and support
I've decided to get it back on the road, whether that will be a rebuild with Paddock, or importing an engine from Troy Jeup in the US. He rebuilds engines with strengthened internals and ships them over for $10k.
I'm off on holiday to Peru for 2 months next week, so decided not to pursue the warranty route as life is too short and spent too much time and stress on this already. I'm happy to put the experience behind me, move on and look forward to actually enjoying the car when i get back.
I'll report back when Paddock have diagnosed the damage to the engine, plus given me the quote for a rebuild.
Looking forward to being an M5 driver again soon! Thanks again for all the advice and support
I'm interested to know how I can prevent the same problem affecting me should I be unlucky enough to suffer a similar problem.
I have the Mondial warranty but how would I check if the all the servicing has been performed as per schedule and if there were any low oil warnings throughout the cars life? Can a friendly dealer help me?
I have the Mondial warranty but how would I check if the all the servicing has been performed as per schedule and if there were any low oil warnings throughout the cars life? Can a friendly dealer help me?
Mags said:
I'm interested to know how I can prevent the same problem affecting me should I be unlucky enough to suffer a similar problem.
I have the Mondial warranty but how would I check if the all the servicing has been performed as per schedule and if there were any low oil warnings throughout the cars life? Can a friendly dealer help me?
YES any should be willing to help you out.I have the Mondial warranty but how would I check if the all the servicing has been performed as per schedule and if there were any low oil warnings throughout the cars life? Can a friendly dealer help me?
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