Driving an M4 in the winter
Discussion
FazerBoy said:
Wills2 said:
It' about both, but tyres make a huge difference I'm constantly surprised by the number of people on PH (and motoring forums in general) who don't seem to understand this.
I saw a post the other day when a poster claimed his "sticky soft MPSS" would be great in winter and he couldn't be persuaded otherwise!
Agreed.I saw a post the other day when a poster claimed his "sticky soft MPSS" would be great in winter and he couldn't be persuaded otherwise!
Anybody who thinks like this can't have actually driven on a set of winter tyres in snow and ice - the difference is night and day.
The massively improved grip is down to a different rubber compound, chunkier tread pattern and the sipes which are designed to fill with snow which then in turn grips the snow on the ground. The compound of summer tyres means that they become soft and sticky when warm but they go hard and slippery in very cold temperatures.
It is debatable whether we have ice and snow on the ground for long enough in the UK to justify buying winter tyres but the actual benefits of these tyres cannot seriously be questioned.
I have bought a spare set of used wheels fitted with winter tyres which I keep in my garage and swap over myself. It only takes about half an hour. When I sell the car I will sell the winter wheels and tyres and recover a large proportion of the amount I laid out. Bear in mind also that while I am using the winter tyres I am not risking damage to my expensive summer wheels and obviously not wearing out my Pilot Super Sports so the net cost over a few years is less than you might expect.
If your car is not a garage queen and you will be using it over the span of several winters I would recommend getting a set of winter tyres.
For 20 years I was a sceptic too and didn't feel any need to use winter tyres; the first 10 were in a reasonably hilly part of North Yorkshire and the later 10 were in a boring flat part East Anglia but driving a pair E36 M3s and a late 944 turbo. I use winter tyres now though, on my E92 335i; I put them on again on Saturday. The car is mapped, produces over 400lb-ft of torque at low revs and is still far more secure in wintery conditions, than my wife's 4WD Audi 3.2 DSG TT on summers.
Not scientific in any way but these clips, of an E46 M, wearing winters, makes interesting viewing. Unless they believe there is some kind of fakery at play here, surely they sceptics can acknowledge the relative benefits on show.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOv2g5qTpvA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STaximkaQxo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk08mjloMpc
Edited by Crackie on Wednesday 25th November 17:53
Crackie said:
Agreed too........I'd be extremely surprised if the sceptics who say "just drive to the conditions" have ever used winters in cold, low grip conditions. The improvement in traction, lateral grip and braking performance, relative to summer tyres, is night and day.
For 20 years I was a sceptic too and didn't feel any need to use winter tyres; the first 10 were in a reasonably hilly part of North Yorkshire and the later 10 were in a boring flat part East Anglia but driving a pair E36 M3s and a late 944 turbo. I use winter tyres now though, on my E92 335i; I put them on again on Saturday. The car is mapped, produces over 400lb-ft of torque at low revs and is still far more secure in wintery conditions, than my wife's 4WD Audi 3.2 DSG TT on summers.
Not scientific in any way but these clips, of an E46 M, wearing winters, makes interesting viewing. Unless they believe there is some kind of fakery at play here, surely they sceptics can acknowledge the relative benefits on show.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOv2g5qTpvA ]
Great clip! That really shows what winter tyres can do. For 20 years I was a sceptic too and didn't feel any need to use winter tyres; the first 10 were in a reasonably hilly part of North Yorkshire and the later 10 were in a boring flat part East Anglia but driving a pair E36 M3s and a late 944 turbo. I use winter tyres now though, on my E92 335i; I put them on again on Saturday. The car is mapped, produces over 400lb-ft of torque at low revs and is still far more secure in wintery conditions, than my wife's 4WD Audi 3.2 DSG TT on summers.
Not scientific in any way but these clips, of an E46 M, wearing winters, makes interesting viewing. Unless they believe there is some kind of fakery at play here, surely they sceptics can acknowledge the relative benefits on show.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOv2g5qTpvA ]
If anybody on this thread thinks that they could cruise up that hill in a rear-wheel drive BMW with wide summer tyres they are deluded...
garethld said:
its all about the tyres!
So if it's all about the tyres they're more important than driver ability then? Might just be me but in difficult conditions I'd far rather be a passenger in a car on summer tyres driven by a competent driver as opposed to sitting next to someone clueless on winters..... FazerBoy said:
If anybody on this thread thinks that they could cruise up that hill in a rear-wheel drive BMW with wide summer tyres they are deluded...
Intentionally or otherwise you're missing the point! Nobody on this thread has suggested winter tyres don't work, only that they're less important than the driver. Same applies to 4 wheel drive, traction control, ABS, et al; in some situations all are nice to have but if people seriously think they - or winter tyres - are more important than what's sitting behind the wheel I really do despair.... JNW1 said:
garethld said:
its all about the tyres!
So if it's all about the tyres they're more important than driver ability then? Might just be me but in difficult conditions I'd far rather be a passenger in a car on summer tyres driven by a competent driver as opposed to sitting next to someone clueless on winters..... 
on summers you may as well abandon the journey in the wrong conditions, which is something I've never had to do with winters.Of course there is no doubt that ability is an important factor in making safe progress in bad conditions, but I try to avoid unnecessary compromises. Driving an M car on summers in snow (if that's what we're talking about essentially) is like driving the same car on ditchfinders in the summer. Sure, you can adapt to driving with the inherent limitations, but you can also improve things considerably by fitting a better tyre for the conditions.
Whether they are 'worth it' is of course another matter entirely and depends on personal circumstances, I would never argue otherwise. As somebody who is very heavily car dependent for business and domestic duties *and* living in an elevated rural area prone to snow in the winter, they are worth having. If I lived in town and didn't drive nearly as far on a day to day basis, I'd probably decide they weren't worth having. I'm still in two minds about buying a set for the M5 this year but I do have a set ready to be fitted to the Golf R so at least I have one usable vehicle if we do have a proper cold spell.
Edited by theboss on Wednesday 25th November 19:28
JNW1 said:
Intentionally or otherwise you're missing the point! Nobody on this thread has suggested winter tyres don't work, only that they're less important than the driver. Same applies to 4 wheel drive, traction control, ABS, et al; in some situations all are nice to have but if people seriously think they - or winter tyres - are more important than what's sitting behind the wheel I really do despair....
Yes, I don't think we're too far apart on this. I was going to post a long reply but theboss has pretty much said exactly what I was thinking...
JNW1 said:
FazerBoy said:
If anybody on this thread thinks that they could cruise up that hill in a rear-wheel drive BMW with wide summer tyres they are deluded...
Intentionally or otherwise you're missing the point! Nobody on this thread has suggested winter tyres don't work, only that they're less important than the driver. Same applies to 4 wheel drive, traction control, ABS, et al; in some situations all are nice to have but if people seriously think they - or winter tyres - are more important than what's sitting behind the wheel I really do despair.... Can't you accept that even the most gifted driver in the world can't find friction when it's not there in the first place ?
At a given level of driver skill, and almost irrespective of how low that is, the most important factor is tyres, whether on the road or on the track.
This is really basic stuff.
nickfrog said:
JNW1 said:
FazerBoy said:
If anybody on this thread thinks that they could cruise up that hill in a rear-wheel drive BMW with wide summer tyres they are deluded...
Intentionally or otherwise you're missing the point! Nobody on this thread has suggested winter tyres don't work, only that they're less important than the driver. Same applies to 4 wheel drive, traction control, ABS, et al; in some situations all are nice to have but if people seriously think they - or winter tyres - are more important than what's sitting behind the wheel I really do despair.... Can't you accept that even the most gifted driver in the world can't find friction when it's not there in the first place ?
At a given level of driver skill, and almost irrespective of how low that is, the most important factor is tyres, whether on the road or on the track.
This is really basic stuff.
Wills2 said:
nickfrog said:
JNW1 said:
FazerBoy said:
If anybody on this thread thinks that they could cruise up that hill in a rear-wheel drive BMW with wide summer tyres they are deluded...
Intentionally or otherwise you're missing the point! Nobody on this thread has suggested winter tyres don't work, only that they're less important than the driver. Same applies to 4 wheel drive, traction control, ABS, et al; in some situations all are nice to have but if people seriously think they - or winter tyres - are more important than what's sitting behind the wheel I really do despair.... Can't you accept that even the most gifted driver in the world can't find friction when it's not there in the first place ?
At a given level of driver skill, and almost irrespective of how low that is, the most important factor is tyres, whether on the road or on the track.
This is really basic stuff.
nickfrog said:
Why do you keep trying to separate the 2 parameters ? Can't you accept that a decent driver can make the most of added friction ?
Can't you accept that even the most gifted driver in the world can't find friction when it's not there in the first place ?
At a given level of driver skill, and almost irrespective of how low that is, the most important factor is tyres, whether on the road or on the track.
This is really basic stuff.
During the winter, some of the time winter tyres will give more grip and some of the time summer tyres will give more grip.Can't you accept that even the most gifted driver in the world can't find friction when it's not there in the first place ?
At a given level of driver skill, and almost irrespective of how low that is, the most important factor is tyres, whether on the road or on the track.
This is really basic stuff.
Its not about making the most of added friction its about driving to the grip you have.
Yes winter tyres will provide a grip benefit to the OP in certain winter conditions but no an M4 is a far from an idea car for winter driving even with winter tyres...given the nature of its power delivery.
JNW1 said:
things like four wheel drive, traction control, ABS, etc; arguably all nice to have but ultimately what really matters is the person behind the wheel having an awareness of the conditions around them
A hypothetical scenario........imagine a very talented driver, who has the combined skills of Hannu Mikkola and an experienced police driving instructor, driving a Mk1 Elise shod with competent but well worn summer tyres. Imagine also a generic clueless driver in a winter tyre shod Range Rover or Land Cruiser. No matter how great their awareness of the conditions, the elite talented driver will not change the laws of physics and is likely to be struggling or stranded in conditions where the 'clueless' driver has not the slightest concern.Performance car drivers are invariably picky about which summer tyre they select to use on their machines; consequently I struggle to understand why, at this time of year, many seem to be happy to use keep using summer tyres when their car's traction, lateral grip and braking are clearly compromised.
Now I do appreciate that a competent aware driver would probably not be driving at 30mph in these conditions, probably less than 10mph on summer tyres in this case, but the improvements in braking performance in the following clip are compelling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elP_34ltdWI
In the wet test the RAC guy's comments echo what many have said earlier in the thread. "the Summer tyre gets there and its fine" but he makes it clear that the stopping distance and feel of the winter tyre are better.
Edited by Crackie on Thursday 26th November 20:19
I can't remember which racing driver it was who said "be on the right tyres at the right time".
I love a car being a bit sideways, but when I can't actually move the car from a standstill, that's the point where I consider winter tyres useful. Up to that point, just changing how I drive has been enough.
That first E46 M3 video reminds me of when I fitted winters to my M3 and had to drive up a bloody steep, un-treated, snowy road in Guildford many moons ago. It was no issue on winters.
When I tried to go over a traffic-light controlled hump-backed bridge last year in my M135i on a light covering of snow on MPSS, it just spun the wheel (stupid open diff. NOT an M-car
) until I really put the boot in and slithered off into a side road where I left the car until conditions improved.
I love a car being a bit sideways, but when I can't actually move the car from a standstill, that's the point where I consider winter tyres useful. Up to that point, just changing how I drive has been enough.
That first E46 M3 video reminds me of when I fitted winters to my M3 and had to drive up a bloody steep, un-treated, snowy road in Guildford many moons ago. It was no issue on winters.
When I tried to go over a traffic-light controlled hump-backed bridge last year in my M135i on a light covering of snow on MPSS, it just spun the wheel (stupid open diff. NOT an M-car
) until I really put the boot in and slithered off into a side road where I left the car until conditions improved.Crackie said:
A hypothetical scenario........imagine a very talented driver, who has the combined skills of Hannu Mikkola and an experienced police driving instructor, driving a Mk1 Elise shod with competent but well worn summer tyres. Imagine also a generic clueless driver in a winter tyre shod Range Rover or Land Cruiser. No matter how great their awareness of the conditions, the elite talented driver will not change the laws of physics and is likely to be struggling or stranded in conditions where the 'clueless' driver has not the slightest concern.
There are many threads online M car owners carefully deliberate which summer tyre performs best on their machine. I struggle to understand why, at this time of year, many seem to be happy to use tyres that are relatively 'remould ditchfinders' compared to what good winter tyres offer. I don't understand why some are prepared to accept such a huge compromise.
Now I do appreciate that a competent aware driver would probably not be doing 30mph in these conditions, probably less than 10mph in this case, but the improvements in braking performance alone are compelling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elP_34ltdWI
In the wet test the RAC guy's comments echo what many have said earlier in the thread. "the Summer tyre gets there and its fine"
If you go all the way back to Sneaky Pete's initial post, the point he made was that he was able to get around in his M3 on summer tyres in poor conditions from which he concluded it's not necessarily all about the tyres. I agreed with him but others then countered with comments to the effect it's all about the tyres - as if nothing else matters - and that's just not right in my view; over the years many people have driven many miles on snow and ice on summers and coped so if it's really all about the tyres how have they managed that? Now, that doesn't mean they wouldn't have found it easier on winters (I'm sure they would) but it then comes down to driver judgement as to how often you're likely to encounter those really bad conditions; if it's regularly and often the sensible decision is to fit winters but if it's only occasionally then perhaps not. There are many threads online M car owners carefully deliberate which summer tyre performs best on their machine. I struggle to understand why, at this time of year, many seem to be happy to use tyres that are relatively 'remould ditchfinders' compared to what good winter tyres offer. I don't understand why some are prepared to accept such a huge compromise.
Now I do appreciate that a competent aware driver would probably not be doing 30mph in these conditions, probably less than 10mph in this case, but the improvements in braking performance alone are compelling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elP_34ltdWI
In the wet test the RAC guy's comments echo what many have said earlier in the thread. "the Summer tyre gets there and its fine"
Edited by Crackie on Thursday 26th November 14:04
In terms of running on tyres that are compromised, the temperature is in double figures round here at the moment so if you've fitted winters shouldn't you be removing them for a few days and putting them back on again when it gets colder - if not surely you're on the "wrong" tyres at the moment?! Obviously ridiculous to take it to those lengths and I'm sure winters will still work fine at 10 or 11 degrees; however, by the same token I don't think decent quality summer tyres turn into ditch-finders when the ambient temperature drops towards freezing. Of course the limits will be higher on winters but if you're on summers you just make allowances and reign things in a bit (so avoid heavy throttle applications, leave larger gaps for stopping, etc); if you do a lot of driving on untreated roads it's perhaps different but good quality summers on treated roads are perfectly usable in cold conditions IMO. Heavy snow is clearly a different matter but that's back to the point of how often you're likely to encounter those conditions.
Finally, your hypothetical scenario is hardly a straight comparison of the effect of the tyres now is it? The correct comparison would surely be to have the clueless driver also in an Elise but shod with winters and in that scenario I'm not at all convinced they'd be driving around without the slightest concern while the skilled driver was left stranded; someone who doesn't know what they're doing doesn't know what they're doing regardless of the rubber on their car and personally I'm not convinced tyres trump driver ability. Perhaps a more likely outcome is that the winters may enable the clueless driver to keep going where otherwise they'd be stranded while the skilled driver would probably still find a way of continuing to make progress even on summers? However, if the conditions were suitable only for a 4x4 the sensible decision would probably be to leave the Elise in the garage!
That still doesn't explain how the skilled driver finds friction when it doesn't exist. Sort the contact patch limitations first and then work your way up to the driver : the driver will always have a minimum of road skill (he/she wouldn't be clueless as passing the test can't be done with zero skill) but the minimum level of friction is zero.
It's essentially about tyres.
It's essentially about tyres.
nickfrog said:
That still doesn't explain how the skilled driver finds friction when it doesn't exist. Sort the contact patch limitations first and then work your way up to the driver : the driver will always have a minimum of road skill (he/she wouldn't be clueless as passing the test can't be done with zero skill) but the minimum level of friction is zero.
It's essentially about tyres.
Well ok but for what sort of proportion of the time do summer tyres offer absolutely zero grip in the UK? Obviously depends on where you live but over the last few years I can count on the fingers of less than two hands the number of times I couldn't manage to get out and get where I needed to go; that includes the bad winter back in 2009/10 and on the worst of those days my car at the time (an E46 M3) would't have gone anywhere even on winters because the snow was too deep! Now you might argue better safe than sorry and cover the worst case scenario - and that's a reasonable position to adopt - but just because that's what you choose to do doesn't make you right and everyone that doesn't fit winters wrong. The reality is that heavy snow isn't the norm in most parts of the UK so as I see it the argument for winters isn't really about being able to make progress when summers can't move at all, it's more about how much extra grip and margin for error they offer on cold, slippery, roads (which we get a lot of in the UK). As I've said several times before, I'm not questioning whether winters offer benefits but if I'm not losing traction on summers (and even in cold conditions usually I'm not) what exactly am I gaining by swapping tyres? Perhaps some piece of mind that I've more grip in hand should I need it but conversely I just end-up with a spare set of wheels taking up space in the garage and for 999 days out of 1000 my progress on the road will be little if any different from if I'd left the car on summers; the other day I'll just work from home! It's essentially about tyres.
Now my cousin lives in the Peak District and has been a user of winters for many years (long before they suddenly became a "must have" following the winter of 2009/10). Would I use them if I lived where he does? You bet but I don't so I don't. Would he use them if he lived where I do? Not the last time I spoke to him about it - horses for courses and all that!
JNW1 said:
Finally, your hypothetical scenario is hardly a straight comparison of the effect of the tyres now is it? The correct comparison would surely be to have the clueless driver also in an Elise but shod with winters and in that scenario I'm not at all convinced they'd be driving around without the slightest concern while the skilled driver was left stranded; someone who doesn't know what they're doing doesn't know what they're doing regardless of the rubber on their car and personally I'm not convinced tyres trump driver ability. Perhaps a more likely outcome is that the winters may enable the clueless driver to keep going where otherwise they'd be stranded while the skilled driver would probably still find a way of continuing to make progress even on summers? However, if the conditions were suitable only for a 4x4 the sensible decision would probably be to leave the Elise in the garage!
Hi JNW1 
OK....the Elise / 4x4 scenario was extreme but I am convinced that the "clueless" driver in a Elise shod with winters would cope better than any driver in an Elise on summers.In fact based upon experiences over the past 5 years comparing my 335i and mrs crackie's TT, I think winter tyres make such a big contribution that in snowy conditions the clueless driver driving the elise on winter tyres would cope better than the talented driver in a 4WD on summers.
You're still unlikely to be convinced. Imagine then our clueless driver in the 2WD car and the talented driver in the 4WD in the following clip. The tyres matter more than the driver by far.........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuE00qdhLA
Crackie said:
Hi JNW1 OK....the Elise / 4x4 scenario was extreme but I am convinced that the "clueless" driver in a Elise shod with winters would cope better than any driver in an Elise on summers.
In fact based upon experiences over the past 5 years comparing my 335i and mrs crackie's TT, I think winter tyres make such a big contribution that in snowy conditions the clueless driver driving the elise on winter tyres would cope better than the talented driver in a 4WD on summers.
You're still unlikely to be convinced. Imagine then our clueless driver in the 2WD car and the talented driver in the 4WD in the following clip. The tyres matter more than the driver by far.........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuE00qdhLA
I seriously doubt that in two identical cars - but with me on winters and Hannu Mikkola on summers - I'd make better progress but sadly not something we'll ever be able to prove one way or the other! OK....the Elise / 4x4 scenario was extreme but I am convinced that the "clueless" driver in a Elise shod with winters would cope better than any driver in an Elise on summers.In fact based upon experiences over the past 5 years comparing my 335i and mrs crackie's TT, I think winter tyres make such a big contribution that in snowy conditions the clueless driver driving the elise on winter tyres would cope better than the talented driver in a 4WD on summers.
You're still unlikely to be convinced. Imagine then our clueless driver in the 2WD car and the talented driver in the 4WD in the following clip. The tyres matter more than the driver by far.........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuE00qdhLA
Not disputing any of the videos you've posted and if I frequently encountered the sort of snowy conditions they all depict I would without question fit winters; however, I encounter roads that look like that once in a blue moon so for me the debate is about what advantages winters offer when the roads are just cold and wet as opposed to covered in snow. In those circumstances I hardly ever struggle with traction - and have never worried about being able to stop - so my contention is I gain nothing with winters other than the piece of mind of knowing I've got more in reserve. I know you're a fan but given where I live and the roads I drive on I just don't see they're worth messing about with to be honest; bound to end-up in a bloody ditch this winter now I've said that......!!
JNW1 said:
nickfrog said:
That still doesn't explain how the skilled driver finds friction when it doesn't exist. Sort the contact patch limitations first and then work your way up to the driver : the driver will always have a minimum of road skill (he/she wouldn't be clueless as passing the test can't be done with zero skill) but the minimum level of friction is zero.
It's essentially about tyres.
Well ok but for what sort of proportion of the time do summer tyres offer absolutely zero grip in the UK? Obviously depends on where you live but over the last few years I can count on the fingers of less than two hands the number of times I couldn't manage to get out and get where I needed to go; that includes the bad winter back in 2009/10 and on the worst of those days my car at the time (an E46 M3) would't have gone anywhere even on winters because the snow was too deep! Now you might argue better safe than sorry and cover the worst case scenario - and that's a reasonable position to adopt - but just because that's what you choose to do doesn't make you right and everyone that doesn't fit winters wrong. The reality is that heavy snow isn't the norm in most parts of the UK so as I see it the argument for winters isn't really about being able to make progress when summers can't move at all, it's more about how much extra grip and margin for error they offer on cold, slippery, roads (which we get a lot of in the UK). As I've said several times before, I'm not questioning whether winters offer benefits but if I'm not losing traction on summers (and even in cold conditions usually I'm not) what exactly am I gaining by swapping tyres? Perhaps some piece of mind that I've more grip in hand should I need it but conversely I just end-up with a spare set of wheels taking up space in the garage and for 999 days out of 1000 my progress on the road will be little if any different from if I'd left the car on summers; the other day I'll just work from home! It's essentially about tyres.
Now my cousin lives in the Peak District and has been a user of winters for many years (long before they suddenly became a "must have" following the winter of 2009/10). Would I use them if I lived where he does? You bet but I don't so I don't. Would he use them if he lived where I do? Not the last time I spoke to him about it - horses for courses and all that!
Edited by nickfrog on Friday 27th November 18:29
nickfrog said:
A fair comment. But having zero grip happens every time the TC light comes on - believe me very often and without even much provocation at 1C or 2C on Supersports in a M135i. I promise you I usually have smooth and conservative throttle inputs/modulation. I don't mainly use winters for snow. I use them at 6.45am setting off at zero deg on my b-road commute. When it does snow, if I preferred to work from home or accept to lose my logistical independence I could do so, my employer doesn't mind. But because winters come at next to zero cost, it's no hardship. I didn't fit them last year btw and they won't go on until it's properly cold this year, if ever.
Surprised an M135i is quite as unruly as that; hardly ever saw the TC light come on in my E92 335i but then I suppose that's a bigger, heavier, car. My old M3 CS was even more impeccably behaved and actually quite surprised me with how easily it coped in the bad winter of 2009/10; obviously less torque low-down than an M135i or 335i but very faithful and confidence inspiring - think the LSD probably helped as well! Edited by nickfrog on Friday 27th November 18:29
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