Driving an M4 in the winter

[nickfrog]

Exactly, no-LSD, bit less weight and power delivery don't help. Don't get me wrong, it is possible with a bit patience while the lock is being unwound to not lose traction, ie to drive to the conditions, but it gets annoying quickly in particular circumstances where the winters come into their own. But in fairness, the window is quite narrow and we're nowhere near it atm.

[Wills2]

JNW1 said:

Wills2 said:

nickfrog said:

JNW1 said:

FazerBoy said:

If anybody on this thread thinks that they could cruise up that hill in a rear-wheel drive BMW with wide summer tyres they are deluded...

Intentionally or otherwise you're missing the point! Nobody on this thread has suggested winter tyres don't work, only that they're less important than the driver. Same applies to 4 wheel drive, traction control, ABS, et al; in some situations all are nice to have but if people seriously think they - or winter tyres - are more important than what's sitting behind the wheel I really do despair....

Why do you keep trying to separate the 2 parameters ? Can't you accept that a decent driver can make the most of added friction ?
Can't you accept that even the most gifted driver in the world can't find friction when it's not there in the first place ?

At a given level of driver skill, and almost irrespective of how low that is, the most important factor is tyres, whether on the road or on the track.

This is really basic stuff.

Indeed I don't know why people try and create strange fictional situations around this driver vs another driver, it's the tyres we're discussing not ability.

The point I was trying to make was indeed pretty basic and at least theboss and fazerboy understood and responded with sensible posts. However, you chaps seem to want to pick an argument around whether or not winter tyres work but I've never said they don't and to be honest I don't think anyone else on this thread has suggested that either. All other things being equal (including driver ability) of course more grip in slippery conditions is preferable to less and there's no question that in some circumstances winter tyres offer significant advantages; however, that's just stating the blatantly obvious and in my book saying it's all about the tyres - to the apparent exclusion of everything else - is something very different (and wrong IMO!).

Yes your point was basic, basically irrelevant....the bit I've highlighted in bold is laughable and shows you have zero experience with winter tyres on snow and ice.

[RossP]

I'll be keeping the M4 on the MPSS over the winter, but I have purchased a set of Bridgestone Blizzaks for the Panda 100HP in case we get any particularly adverse weather.

[JNW1]

Wills2 said:

Yes your point was basic, basically irrelevant....the bit I've highlighted in bold is laughable and shows you have zero experience with winter tyres on snow and ice.

If you go back and re-read my posts you'll see I'm not against winter tyres and have stated quite clearly on several occasions that I'd use them if I felt I'd encounter the sort of conditions regularly that make them necessary; however, in my judgement that's not currently the case given where I live and where I drive. Now I could be wrong about that of course and if I end-up in a ditch this winter I'll order cream to go with my humble pie; however, I've managed over 30 years of driving without the need for winters and hence thus far I feel my judgement has been vindicated!

I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to differ about the value of the driver. I do accept that when you get to literally zero grip on summers there's nothing even the best driver can do but most of the time in the UK it's shades of grey not black and white and when it's slippery but still with some grip a decent driver can make a big difference compared to a poor one IMO. This is really where we started with Sneaky Pete's point about being able to get around in his M3 when it was snowing; I'm sure it would have been easier for him on winters in those circumstances but it can be done without as he so ably demonstrated. This would tend to suggest that the driver has an important part to play and in truth I'm not sure how you can sensibly argue otherwise; if you really can't get around without winters in poor weather - because it's all about the tyres - how have so many managed to do exactly that for so long? Surely it simply wouldn't have been possible if indeed it really was all about the tyres to the exclusion of everything else? However, notwithstanding that, I would repeat (again!) that I'm not oblivious to the benefits of winter tyres and would fit them like a shot if I lived somewhere remote where I was likely to encounter snow and ice frequently; at the moment my judgement is I don't need them but if my circumstances change then so will my tyres!

[nickfrog]

JNW1 said:

I've managed over 30 years of driving without the need for winters and hence thus far I feel my judgement has been vindicated!

30 years ago, tyres looked like that :


Now they all look like that, thanks to the EU :


They are far more specialised in terms of construction, compound and tread design.

What worked in winter 30 years ago and meant that you didn't need them simply doesn't anymore and that's where winters fill the gap created by the evolution of tyres, irrespective of where you live in the UK. But if you haven't tried them, you probably can't understand and you simply make assumptions.

Totally irrelevant as they are virtually free anyway.

[popeyewhite]

JNW1 said:

I do accept that when you get to literally zero grip on summers there's nothing even the best driver can do but most of the time in the UK it's shades of grey not black and white and when it's slippery but still with some grip a decent driver can make a big difference compared to a poor one IMO.

Absolutely correct. The belief winter tyres are some kind of panacea appears endemic on PH as a whole - particularly sad when you consider by far the majority of people who post on PH who fit them will never need them.

[JNW1]

nickfrog said:

30 years ago, tyres looked like that :


Now they all look like that, thanks to the EU :


They are far more specialised in terms of construction, compound and tread design.

What worked in winter 30 years ago and meant that you didn't need them simply doesn't anymore and that's where winters fill the gap created by the evolution of tyres, irrespective of where you live in the UK. But if you haven't tried them, you probably can't understand and you simply make assumptions.

Totally irrelevant as they are virtually free anyway.

Very true Nick although i would point out that I didn't just drive on snow 30 years ago, I drive on it as and when it arrives (including when we had the bad winter a few years ago and tyre design hasn't changed much since then!). That said, if I was encountering snow frequently I would without a doubt fit winter tyres as their improved performance in those conditions can't be denied; however, if you only see a significant snowfall for a handful of days a year - and do almost all of your driving on treated roads - are they really worth it in those circumstances?

You're right that I don't entirely understand the fuss about winters and the reason is quite simple; generally I don't struggle for traction or grip on a decent summer tyre and hence I don't really see what benefit I would gain by switching to winters. Ok, I'd have piece of mind that I've got more in reserve should I need it but what tangible benefit would I see from fitting winters? Genuinely not trying to be awkward or difficult but I just don't see that my everyday driving experience would change apart from on those tiny number of days when it either snows heavily or the temperature drops so low that even treated roads remain icy!

[nickfrog]

popeyewhite said:

Absolutely correct. The belief winter tyres are some kind of panacea appears endemic on PH as a whole

I haven't come across this belief often. You might be judging others by your own binary standards.

Really tired of this if I am honest - winters really help ME at 6.45am on Sussex/Surrey untreated but dry b-roads at near freezing temps on my commute (1 C this morning!).

They work far BETTER than my Michelin Supersports and cost NOTHING.

If anyone has different circumstances and feel they have no benefits form them despite not having tried them or them costing nothing, it's fine by me.

I am out.

[johnwilliams77]

nickfrog said:

I haven't come across this belief often. You might be judging others by your own binary standards.

Really tired of this if I am honest - winters really help ME at 6.45am on Sussex/Surrey untreated but dry b-roads at near freezing temps on my commute (1 C this morning!).

They work far BETTER than my Michelin Supersports and cost NOTHING.

If anyone has different circumstances and feel they have no benefits form them despite not having tried them or them costing nothing, it's fine by me.

I am out.

Where do you get them for free?

[popeyewhite]

johnwilliams77 said:

Where do you get them for free?

He doesn't, he's simply convinced himself of the fact.

[JNW1]

johnwilliams77 said:

Where do you get them for free?

I assume he means you save on wear on your summer tyres plus you can flog the winters (with wheels if you've bought them) and recover a chunk of the outlay when you sell the car. Whether it all works out being literally for free I don't know but I can see that the lifetime cost isn't necessarily huge if you view it that way; however, you still need to commit a chunk of cash up-front to start the process so depending on how long you keep the car it could be a while before it all becomes "free"!

[cslwannabe]

In 2005 I bought my first set of winter tyres - it was for an E46 330Ci. I bought them as my commute changed from 7 miles on a city centre bus route to 27 miles often very early in the morning on roads right on the north east coast which often had little evidence of being gritted or if you were lucky maybe the inside lane of the A19 had been gritted which was ok until everyone was reduced to 25mph by a car which deemed it was unsafe to go any faster and nobody dared venture into the untreated outside lane. This was my first rwd car (having moved from a 60bhp Corsa) and I never struggled in the snow when many people on our estate failed to venture more than a few yards in their fwd cars. Not long after I bought another set of winter tyres for our 330cd whilst other people on our estate switched to 4x4s owing to their winter struggles.

By 2009 both BMWs had been sold and replaced by a fwd Skoda and a Jaguar XF. During the winter of 2009 the XF was woeful in the snow and ice (not that there was much) but wasn't a daily driver whereas the Skoda was fine on summer tyres. In 2010 I decided to but some winter tyres for the XF as it had become a daily driver and the transformation was incredible as 2010 was a pretty bad winter in the NE. I also decided to get a set for the Skoda which was the first fwd car I had fitted winter tyres to but the cost to do so was pretty low and if you are self employed and don't have the luxury of working from home or failing to turn in to work because of the weather these things quickly pay for themselves. The XF was ultimately
replaced with a BMW 640d and again never struggled in the snow and ice during 2'winters winning Vredestein Wintrac winter tyres. This winter I'm running a mk7 Golf R and have again fitted winter tyres as I'm such a convert. To me it's no different to using trail shoes when I run on proper off-road terrain - yes I could probably use my ordinary running shoes although there is a chance I would fall over as they're not really intended for such use. By investing in a set of trail shoes my road shoes last longer as they don't get used so much, just like my summer tyres.

Finally, I remember Autocar running an XFR and smugly reporting how good it was in the snow. In the very next report they found that on a different occasion it was completely undriveable despite there being much less snow. Just goes to show that snowy conditions are not always the same. They then fitted winter tyres to the same car and despite the 285 section rear tyres found it to be very good in wintry conditions.

It's a subject which polarises people for sure but having run winter tyres on 7 cars now over the past decade I'm a convert!

[cringle]

Was on a course yesterday and today in wet wakefield, me in the M4 and a colleague in his 2010 S5. Around roundabouts and pulling into gaps, he was actually laughing at how slow i had to be to keep the car in check and slowly apply the throttle. Admittedly my tyres were very cold but the M4 is not a car you can ham fistedly fling about in the wet. It will bite you in the behind if you do. A guy at the gym who has previously had two e46 M3's and various other RWD cars spun his F80 M3 180 degrees the night he bought it. The TC has certainly saved me a few times. I drive mine daily and had it since July '14 so am familiar with the characteristics. It really is different to other powerful RWD cars in that the torque/power kicks in VERY hard and overwhelms the rears too easily. Not what i was expecting. The e46 and e92 being N/A were much more controllable and in my opinion a better drive when you're "in the mood". If i'm pottering along in the dry with TC on and boot it in first, as it changes into second quite often the TC will kick in and kill the power for a split second, totally spoiling the moment. So every time you want to really have some fun you need to switch tc off or into MDM which requires a few button prods. Not my cup of tea. my next car will definitely be 4wd.

[Crackie]

I'm a relatively recent convert to using winter tyres; I hadn't previously had any major issues during 20+ years getting about, despite living for several of those years in a house called Hillcrest, with a driveway that was far from flat and with the entrance to the drive halfway up the hill.

I managed just fine and always found a way to cope; just as many millions of others also cope. However....do I want a my car to stop faster, turn better and have more grip in treacherous conditions ? Damn right I do. Given the choice I'd rather not have to tolerate compromised performance from tyres that just manage, just cope and just maintain control.

Most would be horrified if the OP, fitted his M4 with cheap barely legal remould summer tyres instead of the factory fit MPSS; why would anyone use rubbish boots on their car when there are far better performing alternatives available ?

edit : apologies to you smatty.

Edited by Crackie on Sunday 29th November 23:07

[Smatty]

Thanks for the updates - didn't intend for this to be a debate on the pros and cons of winters but appreciate the feedback. I will definitely put winters on for the additional safety they offer.

Very interesting the post from the M4 driver who suggests the car is undriveable and will convert to a 4x4 next. Any other experiences?

[cringle]

I'm not saying it's undriveable at all. You just can't drive it anywhere near it's limits in the wet, certainly nowhere near as you could with previous M cars. You have to ensure every throttle response isn't OTT as it doesn't take any prisoners. If you go on M3 cutters quite a few members have bought second cars for winter, with some of the reasons being cited that the car isn't very enjoyable. EVO magazine's tester Dan Prosser also commented on the car losing body control in the wet. My previous 640d was fine in the wet, due to a relatively smooth power delivery..the M4 is quite sudden and the DCT gearbox likes to give you the next gear with a bang. If you're driving capabilities are above average or you get in the car with a stig mentality each and every drive i'm sure it's great. If you're half asleep after a long day at work and want to get somewhere fast then i find it tiresome and annoying. You can't just slip it into drive and ham fistedly boot it (which i like to do)

[RS Grant]

I've been driving the F80 M3 (manual) in the recent wet weather (late Scottish Summer!!) and it can be quite lairy if you are heavy with the throttle and don't reign in the boost... but I've found it very easy to make reasonably quick progress on roundabouts and back roads, the actual grip levels of the standard Continentals are quite high but introduce a few psi of boost and it'll quickly hang the back end out and spin to the limiter.

However when it's wet, taking off quickly from a standing start is difficult either with TC on (part of the M1 button config.) it just cuts the power and dies or TC off (part of the M2 button config.) where it just lights up the rear wheels. It's worth noting that as yet I haven't used the MDM TC half way house, which thinking about it logically now may be the perfect setting for 'nipping out' into traffic in rush hour... will give that a whirl soon.


Cheers,
Grant

[bennyboysvuk]

cringle said:

I'm not saying it's undriveable at all. You just can't drive it anywhere near it's limits in the wet, certainly nowhere near as you could with previous M cars. You have to ensure every throttle response isn't OTT as it doesn't take any prisoners. If you go on M3 cutters quite a few members have bought second cars for winter, with some of the reasons being cited that the car isn't very enjoyable. EVO magazine's tester Dan Prosser also commented on the car losing body control in the wet. My previous 640d was fine in the wet, due to a relatively smooth power delivery..the M4 is quite sudden and the DCT gearbox likes to give you the next gear with a bang. If you're driving capabilities are above average or you get in the car with a stig mentality each and every drive i'm sure it's great. If you're half asleep after a long day at work and want to get somewhere fast then i find it tiresome and annoying. You can't just slip it into drive and ham fistedly boot it (which i like to do)

I definitely, most certainly have the Stig mentality, but can you not lean on the safety systems in the M4 when ham-fistedly booting it and have them keep everything pointing forwards? When I have intentionally tried to out-do the DSC in my M135i, it wouldn't have it. Foot to the floor in 2nd on a wet roundabout wouldn't see it spin, it even sorts out lift-off oversteer. It's very timid if you just get in and drive it.

[Tony B2]

Whilst I am happy to live without winter tyres on my E92 M3 (just did a major bit of fate tempting there...) I can definitely see the argument for having them on the F-car generation.

4 weeks ago, I was on the Nurburgring (GP circuit) in an M4, on summer tyres (actually Bridgestone RE71s I think) and on the first lap of the second day, at a very moderate "warming up the engine" pace, and with full traction on, and dry, though cold surfaces, I had a major sideways moment, without warning.

Moderate cornering speed and G, constant throttle (I thought) and it was suddenly a full opposite lock moment, with only very late intervention by DSC.

The problem with the F-cars is loads of torque low down the rev range, and a somewhat aggressive limited slip diff (wow are LSDs misnamed), and very little rear-end compliance. So any loss of grip happens very quickly and with little provocation.

So - particularly if you are new to the car, or powerful rear wheel drive cars - yes, winter tyres could be a very good investment.

[Crackie]

Tony B2 said:

The problem with the F-cars is loads of torque low down the rev range,

M4 is making more torque at just above tickover than an E46 M3s max torque and M4 is making more than an E92's max figure by only 1500rpm.
No matter how skilled the pilot is with the throttle, its very hard to drive around that amount of low down twist on summer tyres in treacherous conditions.