Driving an M4 in the winter
Discussion
Tony B2 said:
Moderate cornering speed and G, constant throttle (I thought) and it was suddenly a full opposite lock moment, with only very late intervention by DSC.
Does this also highlight the elastic band throttle response that turbo cars suffer from? i.e. At lower revs and throttle openings you can ask for say 30% and it's as if the torque rushes in as the turbo spools and you get way more torque than you originally asked for, perhaps 60%.cringle said:
Was on a course yesterday and today in wet wakefield, me in the M4 and a colleague in his 2010 S5. Around roundabouts and pulling into gaps, he was actually laughing at how slow i had to be to keep the car in check and slowly apply the throttle. Admittedly my tyres were very cold but the M4 is not a car you can ham fistedly fling about in the wet. It will bite you in the behind if you do. A guy at the gym who has previously had two e46 M3's and various other RWD cars spun his F80 M3 180 degrees the night he bought it. The TC has certainly saved me a few times. I drive mine daily and had it since July '14 so am familiar with the characteristics. It really is different to other powerful RWD cars in that the torque/power kicks in VERY hard and overwhelms the rears too easily. Not what i was expecting. The e46 and e92 being N/A were much more controllable and in my opinion a better drive when you're "in the mood". If i'm pottering along in the dry with TC on and boot it in first, as it changes into second quite often the TC will kick in and kill the power for a split second, totally spoiling the moment. So every time you want to really have some fun you need to switch tc off or into MDM which requires a few button prods. Not my cup of tea. my next car will definitely be 4wd.
This is what concerns me about the M-car. I currently have a S5 so it has quattro. I can drive it how I like regardless of the weather. In the wet the car has so much grip. I never have the traction control kicking in however it is worth noting the S5 is a 4.2l V8 and the power delivery is very different to a M bi-turbo.
I have been looking at the M6 as an option for my next car however I am concerned about the lack of traction on the car. The other options are the new RS6 or the 991 S. Still debating.
Lostprophet said:
I have been looking at the M6 as an option for my next car however I am concerned about the lack of traction on the car. The other options are the new RS6 or the 991 S. Still debating.
My boss has just gone from an RS5 to a 991 4S (naturally aspirated version) and says that the 911 will go far more sideways out of junctions than the RS5 ever did. The RS5 was just totally benign. The 991 seems far more interactive.bennyboysvuk said:
Lostprophet said:
I have been looking at the M6 as an option for my next car however I am concerned about the lack of traction on the car. The other options are the new RS6 or the 991 S. Still debating.
My boss has just gone from an RS5 to a 991 4S (naturally aspirated version) and says that the 911 will go far more sideways out of junctions than the RS5 ever did. The RS5 was just totally benign. The 991 seems far more interactive.The S5 isnt a sports car. It is not hugely powerful either and it is totally benign! What you do get is a good traction and control in poor conditions, a decent interior, great off the line acceleration, comfort and family usability! From what I can read and see, the M6/M5/M4 are not particulary useable on the roads without getting yourself into a bit of trouble (unless you are an excellent driver, something which I am not).
RossP said:
Been driving my M4 on slippy roads for the last few days in MDM mode. If you boot it, then of course it breaks traction but it's all very controllable and a great deal of fun.
When it breaks traction, you dont get the pace then... the fun is then more controlling the slide?Crackie said:
M4 is making more torque at just above tickover than an E46 M3s max torque and M4 is making more than an E92's max figure by only 1500rpm. No matter how skilled the pilot is with the throttle, its very hard to drive around that amount of low down twist on summer tyres in treacherous conditions.
cringle said:
Very interesting and you can really feel this. Great in the dry and when accelerating at higher speeds.
Downside is 175lb-ft at each rear wheel at under 2000rpm. Lostprophet's S5, for example, has good traction because each wheel sees relatively little torque, only 70lb-ft at 2000rpm. Good for bush avoidance 
Edited by Crackie on Thursday 3rd December 17:07
Crackie said:
Downside is 175lb-ft at each rear wheel at under 2000rpm. Lostprophet's S5, for example, has good traction because each wheel sees relatively little torque, only 70lb-ft at 2000rpm. Good for bush avoidance
yep, spot on. It splits it across 4 wheels. As I said its not really a sports car, but it has enough power to put down on the ground.Edited by Crackie on Thursday 3rd December 17:07
I wonder how the RS6 copes. It has 560bhp... certainly more torque than a S5 V8.. and the RS6 is turbo charged... similar to the M-cars nowadays.
My best mate has a brand spanking new RS6 and its a bloody monster. I tried keeping up with him even in the dry but it was a lost cause. No drama with his power delivery at all. I have heard of them having some issues in the wet under hard acceleration apparently they side step or something but he loves it and 99% of the time its absolutely fine. His Bose sound system also takes the piss out of the HK
I am still struggling to understand how some of your F8* cars sound like such lairy beasts in all but bone dry warm weather?!
Assuming that all of us posess a fair~middling level of driver skill, all I can put it down to is that ours is a manual gearbox, so there is no chance of kicking down 1,2,3 gears and unsettling itself; or because ours is an LCI, it came with Continental tyres rather than the Michelin tyres, which might operate a bit more effectively in poor/cold weather??
Cheers,
Grant
Assuming that all of us posess a fair~middling level of driver skill, all I can put it down to is that ours is a manual gearbox, so there is no chance of kicking down 1,2,3 gears and unsettling itself; or because ours is an LCI, it came with Continental tyres rather than the Michelin tyres, which might operate a bit more effectively in poor/cold weather??
Cheers,
Grant
cringle said:
My best mate has a brand spanking new RS6 and its a bloody monster. I tried keeping up with him even in the dry but it was a lost cause. No drama with his power delivery at all. I have heard of them having some issues in the wet under hard acceleration apparently they side step or something but he loves it and 99% of the time its absolutely fine. His Bose sound system also takes the piss out of the HK
only issue is... it's an estate! I would rather have your M car RS Grant said:
I am still struggling to understand how some of your F8* cars sound like such lairy beasts in all but bone dry warm weather?!
I seem to remember that about the time EVO returned their long-term M4 they had a new M3 for a comparison test and seemed to think it was a significant improvement in the chassis department. The suggestion was that BMW had been quietly modifying the settings on the M3/M4 and as a result later cars were rather better sorted than early ones; therefore, I wonder if those experiencing lairy behaviour also tend to have 2014 cars? I do agree that lots of torque low-down could unstick the rears without too much provocation but the reports on some M3's and M4's suggest at something a bit more unpredictable and I can see that that could be a bit unnerving in a daily driver. Some of the comments on the M3/M4 actually remind me of what a friend of mine used to say about his TVR Cerbera in greasy conditions; it's like a bad tempered dog - if you don't watch it it'll have you! I test drove a 2015 demo model at a dealer before opting for an F Type. Roads slightly damp but warm and it was lighting the rears up in 3rd and 4th under hard acceleration on a straight dual carriageway. To me it felt like the car was constantly on it's tip toes and you had to approach every input more gingerly.
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