10k to spend - E46 M3 vs E39 M5 - opinions please.
Discussion
VANOS issue's are more common on the M3 than the M5 I believe as well. The M3 also needs the tappets setting from time to time I believe.
I had this choice myself, I chose the M5. Proper V8's are a dying breed, own one while you can.
I do find my car a bit big at times, but I've never been worried about it. The M5 car do mental just as well as the M3, it is no stranger to power slides etc, and it does sound so much better.
I had this choice myself, I chose the M5. Proper V8's are a dying breed, own one while you can.
I do find my car a bit big at times, but I've never been worried about it. The M5 car do mental just as well as the M3, it is no stranger to power slides etc, and it does sound so much better.
By any sensible measure, both are excellent cars. Personally, the more agile e46 M3 better scratches my current itch and so I have just bought another after a 5 year gap. But the e39 M5 has legendary status for good reason.
On a purely personal note, I would just second the view expressed above that I never quite gelled with the e39 interior. I'm really not sure what it was either.
If you really want low down torque, then an e39 Alpina B10 V8 is worth a look. A real gentleman's express. But the slush box and absence of LSD were, to me, ultimately its downfall. But a magnificently strong engine at low revs.
On a purely personal note, I would just second the view expressed above that I never quite gelled with the e39 interior. I'm really not sure what it was either.
If you really want low down torque, then an e39 Alpina B10 V8 is worth a look. A real gentleman's express. But the slush box and absence of LSD were, to me, ultimately its downfall. But a magnificently strong engine at low revs.
I've had an E46 M3 for two years and covered 26k miles. It's cost a bit in that time as, aside from its penchant for Shell V-Power 
, I've had a couple of scheduled Inspection services, a couple of interim oil changes, 4 x Michelin PSS and a full brake refurb/overhaul (sticky calipers are quite common). The subframe has been inspected twice in that time and given the all clear and the VANOS has given no issues (car is now at 96k). It's going in for a final Inspection as well as a couple of other bits in a couple of weeks before it makes way for my next, as yet undecided, car...I think it's going to be tough to replace as I've absolutely enjoyed every minute of driving it.
My advice (whatever flavour you ultimately decide on) is take your time and search wisely as there are a lot of tired ones out there. There is a wealth of information online (M3Cutters is great for the E46) and a number of really good independent specialists that will offer pre-purchase inspection for added peace of mind.
Good luck
, I've had a couple of scheduled Inspection services, a couple of interim oil changes, 4 x Michelin PSS and a full brake refurb/overhaul (sticky calipers are quite common). The subframe has been inspected twice in that time and given the all clear and the VANOS has given no issues (car is now at 96k). It's going in for a final Inspection as well as a couple of other bits in a couple of weeks before it makes way for my next, as yet undecided, car...I think it's going to be tough to replace as I've absolutely enjoyed every minute of driving it. My advice (whatever flavour you ultimately decide on) is take your time and search wisely as there are a lot of tired ones out there. There is a wealth of information online (M3Cutters is great for the E46) and a number of really good independent specialists that will offer pre-purchase inspection for added peace of mind.
Good luck
M3.
All M3's lack a bit of low down torque as they're built to rev. Personally I think they sound great, although I'd budget for a carbon air box and re map from Evolve.
Most will have had subframe issues addressed, although there are enough competent specialists for cars that haven't.
Much as I appreciate the E39 M5, it's just not the type of car for me.
All M3's lack a bit of low down torque as they're built to rev. Personally I think they sound great, although I'd budget for a carbon air box and re map from Evolve.
Most will have had subframe issues addressed, although there are enough competent specialists for cars that haven't.
Much as I appreciate the E39 M5, it's just not the type of car for me.
e21Mark said:
M3.
All M3's lack a bit of low down torque as they're built to rev. Personally I think they sound great, although I'd budget for a carbon air box and re map from Evolve.
Most will have had subframe issues addressed, although there are enough competent specialists for cars that haven't.
Much as I appreciate the E39 M5, it's just not the type of car for me.
i think that saying most will have had subframe issues resolved is not true. there are a LOT of cars out there who's owners dont have the benefit of knowledge that there is even an issue. some owners dont particularly care or if becomes an issue, sell it and move on.All M3's lack a bit of low down torque as they're built to rev. Personally I think they sound great, although I'd budget for a carbon air box and re map from Evolve.
Most will have had subframe issues addressed, although there are enough competent specialists for cars that haven't.
Much as I appreciate the E39 M5, it's just not the type of car for me.
id say that the majority are unchecked.
head gasket failure is becoming a growing issue. thats a real worry for buyers.
pidsy said:
e21Mark said:
M3.
All M3's lack a bit of low down torque as they're built to rev. Personally I think they sound great, although I'd budget for a carbon air box and re map from Evolve.
Most will have had subframe issues addressed, although there are enough competent specialists for cars that haven't.
Much as I appreciate the E39 M5, it's just not the type of car for me.
i think that saying most will have had subframe issues resolved is not true. there are a LOT of cars out there who's owners dont have the benefit of knowledge that there is even an issue. some owners dont particularly care or if becomes an issue, sell it and move on.All M3's lack a bit of low down torque as they're built to rev. Personally I think they sound great, although I'd budget for a carbon air box and re map from Evolve.
Most will have had subframe issues addressed, although there are enough competent specialists for cars that haven't.
Much as I appreciate the E39 M5, it's just not the type of car for me.
id say that the majority are unchecked.
head gasket failure is becoming a growing issue. thats a real worry for buyers.
I was going to mention Head Gasket Failure - mine has been done, but its getting more common on these cars now the age and miles rack up.
I'd say the three biggest things are:
Rear Subframe
Head gasket
VANOS
19" Diamond cut Wheel Corrosion (A correct back to factory refurbishment is £125 a wheel - at Lepsons or Pristine Wheels)
Still think the E46 M3 is a good buy, but then so is the E39 M5 - all depends which you like best, try drive and look at both.
Andy
andyman_2006 said:
pidsy said:
e21Mark said:
M3.
All M3's lack a bit of low down torque as they're built to rev. Personally I think they sound great, although I'd budget for a carbon air box and re map from Evolve.
Most will have had subframe issues addressed, although there are enough competent specialists for cars that haven't.
Much as I appreciate the E39 M5, it's just not the type of car for me.
i think that saying most will have had subframe issues resolved is not true. there are a LOT of cars out there who's owners dont have the benefit of knowledge that there is even an issue. some owners dont particularly care or if becomes an issue, sell it and move on.All M3's lack a bit of low down torque as they're built to rev. Personally I think they sound great, although I'd budget for a carbon air box and re map from Evolve.
Most will have had subframe issues addressed, although there are enough competent specialists for cars that haven't.
Much as I appreciate the E39 M5, it's just not the type of car for me.
id say that the majority are unchecked.
head gasket failure is becoming a growing issue. thats a real worry for buyers.
I was going to mention Head Gasket Failure - mine has been done, but its getting more common on these cars now the age and miles rack up.
I'd say the three biggest things are:
Rear Subframe
Head gasket
VANOS
19" Diamond cut Wheel Corrosion (A correct back to factory refurbishment is £125 a wheel - at Lepsons or Pristine Wheels)
Still think the E46 M3 is a good buy, but then so is the E39 M5 - all depends which you like best, try drive and look at both.
Andy
just had mine done - there were 3 others in at the same time.
pidsy said:
andyman_2006 said:
pidsy said:
e21Mark said:
M3.
All M3's lack a bit of low down torque as they're built to rev. Personally I think they sound great, although I'd budget for a carbon air box and re map from Evolve.
Most will have had subframe issues addressed, although there are enough competent specialists for cars that haven't.
Much as I appreciate the E39 M5, it's just not the type of car for me.
i think that saying most will have had subframe issues resolved is not true. there are a LOT of cars out there who's owners dont have the benefit of knowledge that there is even an issue. some owners dont particularly care or if becomes an issue, sell it and move on.All M3's lack a bit of low down torque as they're built to rev. Personally I think they sound great, although I'd budget for a carbon air box and re map from Evolve.
Most will have had subframe issues addressed, although there are enough competent specialists for cars that haven't.
Much as I appreciate the E39 M5, it's just not the type of car for me.
id say that the majority are unchecked.
head gasket failure is becoming a growing issue. thats a real worry for buyers.
I was going to mention Head Gasket Failure - mine has been done, but its getting more common on these cars now the age and miles rack up.
I'd say the three biggest things are:
Rear Subframe
Head gasket
VANOS
19" Diamond cut Wheel Corrosion (A correct back to factory refurbishment is £125 a wheel - at Lepsons or Pristine Wheels)
Still think the E46 M3 is a good buy, but then so is the E39 M5 - all depends which you like best, try drive and look at both.
Andy
just had mine done - there were 3 others in at the same time.
Bet its a lot better now though, when i had my Leak down test done and Vanos checked, Mr Vanos had 3 black CSL's in waiting on Head Gaskets! That was the most CSL's I've seen in one garage needing repair at one time, but shows how common the issue really is.
Hope your happy with the car now its fixed though, i found it to be worth the money having it done
Andy
mackay45 said:
How much do each of those common repairs cost these days?
Rear Subframe - £1k?
Head gasket - ?
VANOS - ?
Assuming a specialist is used, not a main dealer...
Rear Subframe - £1k?
Head gasket - ?
VANOS - ?
Assuming a specialist is used, not a main dealer...
Rear Subframe - £1k?
Head gasket - £1500 (What i Paid all inc vat etc)
VANOS - £800 (What i was quoted if needed by Steve @ Mr Vanos) http://www.mrvanos.com/E46-M3-32-S54-Vanos-Repair(...
Prices may vary from location town/city and dependant on each garage labour rates.
Main Dealers dont repair VANOS - only replace full units. And i was quoted by stratstone BMW £3600 for my head gasket (called just for a price as at the time was curious to see what they charged)
Andy
just to add my costs:
subframe - £800 ish (reddish plate kit fitted at Deutsch-tech)
Head gasket - £1800 (Technosport) - might have been a bit less than that as i had to have the hydraulic chain tensioner changed too.
edit to add that this infor should have gone in the e46 m3 owners thread.
subframe - £800 ish (reddish plate kit fitted at Deutsch-tech)
Head gasket - £1800 (Technosport) - might have been a bit less than that as i had to have the hydraulic chain tensioner changed too.
edit to add that this infor should have gone in the e46 m3 owners thread.
pidsy said:
e21Mark said:
M3.
All M3's lack a bit of low down torque as they're built to rev. Personally I think they sound great, although I'd budget for a carbon air box and re map from Evolve.
Most will have had subframe issues addressed, although there are enough competent specialists for cars that haven't.
Much as I appreciate the E39 M5, it's just not the type of car for me.
i think that saying most will have had subframe issues resolved is not true. there are a LOT of cars out there who's owners dont have the benefit of knowledge that there is even an issue. some owners dont particularly care or if becomes an issue, sell it and move on.All M3's lack a bit of low down torque as they're built to rev. Personally I think they sound great, although I'd budget for a carbon air box and re map from Evolve.
Most will have had subframe issues addressed, although there are enough competent specialists for cars that haven't.
Much as I appreciate the E39 M5, it's just not the type of car for me.
id say that the majority are unchecked.
head gasket failure is becoming a growing issue. thats a real worry for buyers.
e21Mark said:
pidsy said:
e21Mark said:
M3.
All M3's lack a bit of low down torque as they're built to rev. Personally I think they sound great, although I'd budget for a carbon air box and re map from Evolve.
Most will have had subframe issues addressed, although there are enough competent specialists for cars that haven't.
Much as I appreciate the E39 M5, it's just not the type of car for me.
i think that saying most will have had subframe issues resolved is not true. there are a LOT of cars out there who's owners dont have the benefit of knowledge that there is even an issue. some owners dont particularly care or if becomes an issue, sell it and move on.All M3's lack a bit of low down torque as they're built to rev. Personally I think they sound great, although I'd budget for a carbon air box and re map from Evolve.
Most will have had subframe issues addressed, although there are enough competent specialists for cars that haven't.
Much as I appreciate the E39 M5, it's just not the type of car for me.
id say that the majority are unchecked.
head gasket failure is becoming a growing issue. thats a real worry for buyers.
I'm not so sure about age related, maybe, however some younger lower mile cars have started to suffer, incuding CSL's and as for design flaw...hmmm its possible bmw bored out the 3.0 block a tad too far! my opinion of course! ;-)
But when you see one with the head off those cylinders are mighty close together, I'm not surprised the head gaskets go between cylinders! and its a factory steel head gasket.
We know why they did it as using a 3.0 block saved weight and size.
Maybe BMW didn't expect these cars to last 10+ years or thats how it feels to me! :-)
I'll leave people to make their own minds up, but I know my thoughts.
Andy
Sorry for derailing thread OP but to add to what Andy said, there have been a number of cars with failure that have low miles (some csl's with circa 30k) and can happen any time - the way the car is driven is a big factor.
As mentioned, the original block was a 3.0 and was then bored out to 3.2 - this left less than 5mm between cylinders. The steel used wasn't anything special so can't cope with that.
This was mine (the only pic I seem to be putting on PH at the moment:
Failed across all 6 - with very little in the way of symptoms.
As mentioned, the original block was a 3.0 and was then bored out to 3.2 - this left less than 5mm between cylinders. The steel used wasn't anything special so can't cope with that.
This was mine (the only pic I seem to be putting on PH at the moment:
Failed across all 6 - with very little in the way of symptoms.
M5 is the connoisseur's choice...... Owned a E39 for 18 months back in 2004.... One of my favourite cars ever!!!! Massively tail happy if you want it to be with just a prod of the throttle... I'd save a couple more quid and buy the best lowest mileage example of which ever one you decide....if you go M5 Pay for a good Warranty or buy from a dealer might cost a little more but well worth the peace of mind ...
Repairs on these can burn the pocket remember originally a 60k car and repairs can reflect this
Repairs on these can burn the pocket remember originally a 60k car and repairs can reflect this
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