Z4M / E46 M3 - Are they just not that fast?
Discussion
I've had the Z4 for around 2 years now and had the odd tussle with other machinery. The other day, I could not lose an Astra Mk IV!!
Now the car was obviously highly tuned given it had a bloody big intercooler on show low down, but given the Z4 is meant to have 350bhp, in order to get that out of an Astra it would have probably being the quickest one in the UK! It was literally glued to my bumper all the way up into significant numbers on a pretty straight road.
Now are those ponies only available in the 6 - 8k band and therefore most the time its not putting out that much until you get there?
Now I love driving the car and the noise it makes as you accelerate is great, but I struggle to lose traction in the dry in anything other than first, which is a bind to use anyway as you either nail it or have to use it timidly as its so jerky, which implies to me that the power really is all at the top end. My Cerebra 4.5 would lose traction in 3rd, now I know a much lighter car and mine had around 380bhp verified, but when a VW T5 tries to accelerate in the inside of the slip road to beat you and you don't make much distance on him, is the car just old hat now in the power stakes to turbo'd revo cars?
Now the car was obviously highly tuned given it had a bloody big intercooler on show low down, but given the Z4 is meant to have 350bhp, in order to get that out of an Astra it would have probably being the quickest one in the UK! It was literally glued to my bumper all the way up into significant numbers on a pretty straight road.
Now are those ponies only available in the 6 - 8k band and therefore most the time its not putting out that much until you get there?
Now I love driving the car and the noise it makes as you accelerate is great, but I struggle to lose traction in the dry in anything other than first, which is a bind to use anyway as you either nail it or have to use it timidly as its so jerky, which implies to me that the power really is all at the top end. My Cerebra 4.5 would lose traction in 3rd, now I know a much lighter car and mine had around 380bhp verified, but when a VW T5 tries to accelerate in the inside of the slip road to beat you and you don't make much distance on him, is the car just old hat now in the power stakes to turbo'd revo cars?
You need a lot of power to "leave XXXX for dead".
GSI Turbo were around 200hp, wind the boost up to an easy 250, plus other stuff, and you can soon see why.
an extra 100hp for 1second over 1/4mile (daft rule of thumb type equation/pub talk)
eg - http://www.z06vette.com/forums/f8/how-much-hp-woul...
GSI Turbo were around 200hp, wind the boost up to an easy 250, plus other stuff, and you can soon see why.
an extra 100hp for 1second over 1/4mile (daft rule of thumb type equation/pub talk)
eg - http://www.z06vette.com/forums/f8/how-much-hp-woul...
BlueEyedBoy said:
Now are those ponies only available in the 6 - 8k band and therefore most the time its not putting out that much until you get there?
I can relate to this having had a Z4M/E92 M3, I once had a Megane RS that was only running 280bhp and he was all over me in the M3 and I was thrashing the M3 to death and the biggest killer with BMW's is their weight and the way the S54/S65 engines deliver their power all at the top end. I never had the same issue in my Cerbera because of it's lower kerb weight and it's strong power to weight ratio, I still appreciate a N/A engine but I haven't much time now for BMW's high rev/ low torque engines(S54/S65) because they only thrill on a track and they don't work very well on the road.
They are quick. But you'd need an awful lot more power than something to pull away and leave something for dead and as has been pointed out a remapped Astra isn't that far off the power to weight and thus no way you'd be able to leave it for dead.
In terms of breaking traction - the Z has a really sophisticated diff that is designed to keep the power down and stop you breaking traction so there's little chance of overcoming that. The TVR has nothing like that so you can easily break traction and thus is much more unruly.
In contrast to the previous poster - I love the S54 engine and have little interest in using it on track. The engine is really tractable low down and is relatively torquey compared to many other n/a engines. I prefer it to a 911 I had which I felt was too tame.
In contrast to your story - a newish Ferrari California couldn't leave me for dead in the Z in a tussle recently - but if course is quicker.
In terms of breaking traction - the Z has a really sophisticated diff that is designed to keep the power down and stop you breaking traction so there's little chance of overcoming that. The TVR has nothing like that so you can easily break traction and thus is much more unruly.
In contrast to the previous poster - I love the S54 engine and have little interest in using it on track. The engine is really tractable low down and is relatively torquey compared to many other n/a engines. I prefer it to a 911 I had which I felt was too tame.
In contrast to your story - a newish Ferrari California couldn't leave me for dead in the Z in a tussle recently - but if course is quicker.
Beedub said:
they are brisk in todays world with a really nice engine.... sadly many a turbo'd hot hatch will keep it humble Easily!! I've got a tuned up Fiesta ST 2015MY and I'm pretty certain in a stage 3 guise it would wee all over a stock z4m.
This is roughly my thinking, newer cars with much more consistent torque and turbo power are pretty much going to be easily tuned to be a match, and there is not much that you can do to the N/A.Edited by Beedub on Saturday 28th May 23:36
Billy_Whizzzz said:
They are quick. But you'd need an awful lot more power than something to pull away and leave something for dead and as has been pointed out a remapped Astra isn't that far off the power to weight and thus no way you'd be able to leave it for dead.
I was't expecting to leave it for dead, you would just think that with the extra horses you would start pulling away at higher speeds, but that didn't happen either. I did have the roof down so maybe I screwed up the aerodynamics 
Those vxr astras have around 250bhp in stock tune. A remap will see just over 300 bhp. If he has a large inter cooler visible he/she has spent money doing things properly and it could have a bigger turbo' there is every chance he/she was running nearer 400bhp. They are certainly rapid. I spent the last 2 years running a 5.7 monaro vxr. A lad that worked for me had a corsa vxr 1.6 with a bigger turbo, decat, and chip tuning and whilst quicker at high speeds I could not pull away from him by a great deal. The monaro had 420bhp.
The BMW however is effortless and smooth in its delivery and sounds great. Not the case for a spikey Astra or corsa.
The BMW however is effortless and smooth in its delivery and sounds great. Not the case for a spikey Astra or corsa.
helix402 said:
I don't think the Z4 has 350hp.
It's 338bhp...it needs much more though to shake the pesky turbo cars off though, years ago I didn't have any trouble keeping up with a E46 M3 in my stage 1 tuned 200SX and ever since then I never really thought the M3 was that fast but I suppose that's not really what the M3/Z4M are about, it's more about the whole package with them. It's all relative and plenty will think the E46 M3/Z4M are fast I would imagine, they never felt that way to me though...Beedub has the right idea by sticking a super charger to the S54 and that soon sorts the problem out.
I find the Z4M does its best work if you can fully ring out third gear and then into fourth. Opportunities to do this are somewhat limited in the uk as you may expect.
In the wrong gear at slower speeds you can be troubled by a lot of modern machinery, especially those with DSG type transmissions who can maximise power to the wheels instantly with a mash of the pedal/paddles.
Go and find some place quiet and launch from 3.5k with traction control off and don't up shift until the last moment, mine still makes me grin after four years of ownership when it's let off its leash.
I used to have a 200sx with ~270hp and due to its weight and longish gearing it would bother e46 m3s which were new at the time. The turbo midrange was great for overtaking.
In the wrong gear at slower speeds you can be troubled by a lot of modern machinery, especially those with DSG type transmissions who can maximise power to the wheels instantly with a mash of the pedal/paddles.
Go and find some place quiet and launch from 3.5k with traction control off and don't up shift until the last moment, mine still makes me grin after four years of ownership when it's let off its leash.
I used to have a 200sx with ~270hp and due to its weight and longish gearing it would bother e46 m3s which were new at the time. The turbo midrange was great for overtaking.
mwstewart said:
They haven't been 'fast' for years - even the last generation of supercar looks slow compared to the new turbo cars, but that's not what it's about. The Z4/M3 has more than enough power to make pretty serious progress thanks to the great chassis.
This.Any "last-gen" performance car is going to struggle to impress against the new crop hot hatches in a straight line however I imagine that once you leave the dual-carriageway, throw in a few corners and a less than perfect road surface, the Z4M will weed out all but the very best [Megane Trophy-R etc.].
They are great engines and more than fast enough to enjoy in today's world. An E36 M3 Evo was the car that broke my obsession with modifying turbo cars, I got the M3 as a fun, temporary car and in changing lost almost a 100 bhp and added over a 100kg in weight. I honestly didn't miss the power, the M3 engine had so much character and just felt great. Just enjoy it and don't worry about comparing it to turbo cars of whatever vintage 
0836whimper said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I haven't much time now for BMW's high rev/ low torque engines(S54/S65)
And the very broken record somehow keeps on playing....@ Lee - I suggest a month where you're forbidden to mention the E9X M3!
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